Athletic article - comments from NFL people on AFC draft classes

[FireChans]

42 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yet Beane has used essentially what began as 3 first round picks on receiving weapons for Josh in the past 5 drafts.  Diggs, Kincaid, and Coleman which was our first until he swapped one pick back, but it was essentially our first.  And don't bother with the weak attempt to remove Kincaid from that list, he was drafted to primarily be a receiver for Josh, not be a traditional TE.  

 

So how has Beane shown to overvalue RB's over receivers for Josh and under valued receiving for Josh?  Draft:  Beane has spent not only those picks above, but also threw in two 4ths as well in the trades to get Diggs and Kincaid.  He also used a 5th on Shakir, and a 4th on Davis.  At RB:  He used a 2nd on cook, two thirds on Devin and Moss, and a 4th now on Davis.  Hmmmm...much more on receivers than RB's.  How about FA?  Well he went out and got quite a few more WR's than RB's in guys like Brown, Cole, Sanders, Samuel, etc.  While he has done very little at RB in free agency despite there being a lot of available RB's over the past 5 years.  

 

The funniest part of this new take of yours (besides that it suddenly doesn't involve the Chiefs who used a first round pick on a RB and used less premium draft capital on receiving help), is that the biggest gripe about the Bills offense under Daboll and then Dorsey was that we couldn't run the ball and we needed to be able to run the ball to take pressure off Josh.  Now in 2023 we finally run the ball, the team finally starts winning by doing so, and now you are saying Beane suddenly overvalues RB's and under values receivers even though neither his draft investments or free agent spending suggests that.  

 

Got it.  Good talk.

Just so I get this straight, does this mean you think that Beane has done just the right amount resource allocation in WR and RB?

 

Like, in your opinion, there's nothing to quibble about in terms of how many RB's or WR's he drafts?

[Mikey152]

23 hours ago, FireChans said:

We can compare all the picks if you'd like (not including playoffs because that's too much math).

 

Bills WR production of their two fifth rounders:

 

49 catches 772 yards 3 TD's

 

Chiefs WR production of their 2 seconds and third:

 

163 catches 1772 yards 11 TD's

 

Yeah, looks like a landslide.

Clearly the Bills value TE more than the Chiefs...drafted Knox in the third round AND Kincaid in the first. Meanwhile, the Chiefs haven't spent a Day one or two pick on a TE since 2013.

 

Clearly Chiefs think TE is a waste of space on their roster.

 

 

Did you ever think maybe the Chiefs spent more on receiver the last couple years because they didn't have Diggs and Davis???

Edited May 7 by Mikey152

[Augie]

48 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Clearly the Bills value TE more than the Chiefs...drafted Knox in the third round AND Kincaid in the first. Meanwhile, the Chiefs haven't spent a Day one or two pick on a TE since 2013.

 

Clearly Chiefs think TE is a waste of space on their roster.

 

 

Did you ever think maybe the Chiefs spent more on receiver the last couple years because they didn't have Diggs and Davis???

 

The Chiefs already have some guy playing TE, and I hear he’s pretty good. Their “waste of time” is going to the HOF, despite his choice in women. 😋

 

We had a few decades of mostly future truck drivers and  gym teachers at the position. It made sense for us to invest there while the Chiefs were looking at other needs.  I like our TE room a lot. One more clear starting quality NFL WR would make me feel MUCH better about our team, but if we have to roll with what we have, I’ll have to live with that.  

 

Sorry if I missed something coming in late or took something out of context.

[Mikey152]

5 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

The Chiefs already have some guy playing TE, and I hear he’s pretty good. Their “waste of time” is going to the HOF, despite his choice in women. 😋

 

We had a few decades of mostly future truck drivers and  gym teachers at the position. It made sense for us to invest there while the Chiefs were looking at other needs.  I like our TE room a lot. One more clear starting quality NFL WR would make me feel MUCH better about our team, but if we have to roll with what we have, I’ll have to live with that.  

 

Sorry if I missed something coming in late or took something out of context.

That was the point...they didn't draft a TE because they had one...The Bills didn't draft receivers high because they had them already.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Clearly the Bills value TE more than the Chiefs...drafted Knox in the third round AND Kincaid in the first. Meanwhile, the Chiefs haven't spent a Day one or two pick on a TE since 2013.

 

Clearly Chiefs think TE is a waste of space on their roster.

 

 

Did you ever think maybe the Chiefs spent more on receiver the last couple years because they didn't have Diggs and Davis???

Why did the Niners draft a first round WR when they had Deebo and Aiyuk?

[Ayjent]

The Russ Brandon/Doug Whaley years they invested heavily in WR position without a proven QB and a middling OL, passing up solid QBs in the process.  That was a flawed approach.  What Beane is doing is a little too heavy in the non-WR focus, but this talk of fire Beane is ridiculous. This team was frustrating to watch for nearly 2 decades before Beane and McD. This even seems to be an anomaly for the Pegulas, so please keep these guys in place. I get the more weapons around Josh sentiment and I agree, but what they are building can work well and I think they are investing in being a team that can physically dominate a defense while their own Defense is built to play with a lead.  I’m interested to see how they reshape this team before calling for their heads. 

[Captain Hindsight]

15 hours ago, FireChans said:

Why did the Niners draft a first round WR when they had Deebo and Aiyuk?

Because they are going to trade one of them next year

[FireChans]

13 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Because they are going to trade one of them next year

Oh wow, you can draft a WR high BEFORE one or two leave your team?

[Captain Hindsight]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Oh wow, you can draft a WR high BEFORE one or two leave your team?

You could yes. Still doesnt win the Super Bowl apparently 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

You could yes. Still doesnt win the Super Bowl apparently 

Does it prevent you from throwing to JAGs like Sherfield who alligator arm passes from your generational QB in playoff games?

[PBF81]

On 5/6/2024 at 8:28 PM, oldmanfan said:

I think we all love Josh, but his improvement will come when he uses the entire set of weapons at his disposal and does do all over the field as you suggest.  And if Coleman can make big plays out of bubble screens, fine by me.  Bring the D up closer to the line then let Samuel or Shakir get behind them.  I think we have more weapons than many are giving credit for.

 

Diggs to me fell victim to two things:  1.  Brady wanting to diversify the offense more and 2. while I have no proof,  I suspect Josh was sick of dealing with him and let McD and Beane know.

 

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, been on the road and no time for anything fun.  

 

You are correct there, the absolute best QBs in the history of the game, at least in the modern era, were excellent if not masterful at that "all over the field," or short-medium passing game, which is referred to as the high-percentage passing game as you are aware.  There's a reason for that title, ... high-percentage.  LOL  

 

Your statement about Coleman making "big plays out of bubble screens" is issue-laden.  To start, his bubble-screen or otherwise screen plays at FSU rarely amounted to anything significant.  Again, I'll itemize all of his plays, but again, if you watch that every pass video it's beyond clear.  So the question that begs itself, is whether or not, having not been successful at it in college, he'll be successful in the NFL.  The answer seems obvious, and back when we drafted Watkins, who's background was similar, yet with him simply possessing notably greater speed, not even atleticism, Watkins too made a living off of bubble screens in college, which simply do not work to that extent in the NFL.  

 

Regarding your bringing the D up closer to the line statement, that sounds great, but it's also tremendously oversimplified.  And Coleman isn't the type that even if he were to catch a bubble-screen pass, that he'd be difficult to run down.  Again, I think you'd really get a lot from that every pass video.  I've gotten the same exact feeling about him that I got from Hardy whenever we drafted him, and Watkins more recently just on a lower level.  ... from that video, hard evidence.  

 

As to the "more weapons," we'll see.  Numbers of weapons are one thing, but it's the quality, and as you and I often disagree, on how they are used, which appears to be a quite serious shortcoming for our offense this season notwithstanding.  We'll see but my confidence is the lowest it's been since pre-Daboll.  

 

As to your last two points, the second one you are correct, we have no clue, but recognize this, if it is true, then we were seriously lied to all of last offseason/preseason/season.  That doesn't sit very well, or shouldn't.  Also, when can you believe these guys then, you can't.  

 

As to the first point there, Brady wanting to diversify the offense more, we'll have to disagree on that.  It's clear from where a lot of us sit, that Brady's being driven by McD's Complimentary Football approach, which focuses on defense, rushing, and a shorter passing game.  How do we know this, in word-salad fashion, McD's told us so.  Make no mistake, Brady takes his general offensive marching orders from McD.  He owes McD for the promotion, he's not going to be at odds with his overall strategy, for as lacking as it may be.  

 

Either way, let's look at the primary narrative regarding Diggs.  It's that "he lost a step" last season.  Let's forget for a moment that that step was seemingly lost from one game to another, essentially when Brady took over, which would be the first time in NFL history that a WR "lost a step" to that extent within a few days.   If the narrative holds true, and we'll find out for certain this fall, then one would expect that among his worst (aka most tapered off) games, would be the last of the regular season.  But watch this highlight video from that game, and only two plays are being referenced here, not the entire game.  But check out at the 2:53 mark where he dusts Ramsey, does that jibe with the narrative?  Then again at the 5:00 mark where Diggs actually had to slow down after beating Apple before making a great grab of an underthrown ball, does that fit the narrative?  

 

Also, look at how Diggs is used otherwise, that's telling too.  Also, an example of what I mentioned before, that we'll get into more, look at the 4:33 mark, if Allen hits Cook as soon as he sees him break, that's a gain of 7 or 8, more if Apple misses the tackle, on 1st-and-10, but instead he waits, hoping something will open up and then throws it to Knox on the sideline.  Sometimes it works deeper, sometimes not, but we're talking about him focusing on the high-percentage passing game, which would have been the short out to Cook there.  The question isn't which had the better outcome, but in terms of how he'll be used this season, which was the smarter play.  There are dozens and dozens of those from last season.  

 

His production absolutely plummeted from 87 YPG to 45, half of that.  But most importantly, if Diggs really lost a step, it's odd that his Yards-per-Reception-Before-Catch dropped by over 30% from 8.2 to 5.6 yards, but this Yards-per-Reception-After-Catch remained the same at 3.7.  

 

Anyway, here's that highlight video;  

 

 

[NewEra]

22 hours ago, FireChans said:

Why did the Niners draft a first round WR when they had Deebo and Aiyuk?

Because they’re going to get rid of one after this season and because they’re paying their QB 1M-  

[FireChans]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Because they’re going to get rid of one after this season and because they’re paying their QB 1M-  

Oh so just like when we all knew Gabe was gonna walk last season?

[Mikey152]

22 hours ago, FireChans said:

Why did the Niners draft a first round WR when they had Deebo and Aiyuk?

Contracts?

6 hours ago, FireChans said:

Does it prevent you from throwing to JAGs like Sherfield who alligator arm passes from your generational QB in playoff games?

cough kincaid cough or would you have preferred a receiver with that pick?

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, been on the road and no time for anything fun.  

 

You are correct there, the absolute best QBs in the history of the game, at least in the modern era, were excellent if not masterful at that "all over the field," or short-medium passing game, which is referred to as the high-percentage passing game as you are aware.  There's a reason for that title, ... high-percentage.  LOL  

 

Your statement about Coleman making "big plays out of bubble screens" is issue-laden.  To start, his bubble-screen or otherwise screen plays at FSU rarely amounted to anything significant.  Again, I'll itemize all of his plays, but again, if you watch that every pass video it's beyond clear.  So the question that begs itself, is whether or not, having not been successful at it in college, he'll be successful in the NFL.  The answer seems obvious, and back when we drafted Watkins, who's background was similar, yet with him simply possessing notably greater speed, not even atleticism, Watkins too made a living off of bubble screens in college, which simply do not work to that extent in the NFL.  

 

Regarding your bringing the D up closer to the line statement, that sounds great, but it's also tremendously oversimplified.  And Coleman isn't the type that even if he were to catch a bubble-screen pass, that he'd be difficult to run down.  Again, I think you'd really get a lot from that every pass video.  I've gotten the same exact feeling about him that I got from Hardy whenever we drafted him, and Watkins more recently just on a lower level.  ... from that video, hard evidence.  

 

As to the "more weapons," we'll see.  Numbers of weapons are one thing, but it's the quality, and as you and I often disagree, on how they are used, which appears to be a quite serious shortcoming for our offense this season notwithstanding.  We'll see but my confidence is the lowest it's been since pre-Daboll.  

 

As to your last two points, the second one you are correct, we have no clue, but recognize this, if it is true, then we were seriously lied to all of last offseason/preseason/season.  That doesn't sit very well, or shouldn't.  Also, when can you believe these guys then, you can't.  

 

As to the first point there, Brady wanting to diversify the offense more, we'll have to disagree on that.  It's clear from where a lot of us sit, that Brady's being driven by McD's Complimentary Football approach, which focuses on defense, rushing, and a shorter passing game.  How do we know this, in word-salad fashion, McD's told us so.  Make no mistake, Brady takes his general offensive marching orders from McD.  He owes McD for the promotion, he's not going to be at odds with his overall strategy, for as lacking as it may be.  

 

Either way, let's look at the primary narrative regarding Diggs.  It's that "he lost a step" last season.  Let's forget for a moment that that step was seemingly lost from one game to another, essentially when Brady took over, which would be the first time in NFL history that a WR "lost a step" to that extent within a few days.   If the narrative holds true, and we'll find out for certain this fall, then one would expect that among his worst (aka most tapered off) games, would be the last of the regular season.  But watch this highlight video from that game, and only two plays are being referenced here, not the entire game.  But check out at the 2:53 mark where he dusts Ramsey, does that jibe with the narrative?  Then again at the 5:00 mark where Diggs actually had to slow down after beating Apple before making a great grab of an underthrown ball, does that fit the narrative?  

 

Also, look at how Diggs is used otherwise, that's telling too.  Also, an example of what I mentioned before, that we'll get into more, look at the 4:33 mark, if Allen hits Cook as soon as he sees him break, that's a gain of 7 or 8, more if Apple misses the tackle, on 1st-and-10, but instead he waits, hoping something will open up and then throws it to Knox on the sideline.  Sometimes it works deeper, sometimes not, but we're talking about him focusing on the high-percentage passing game, which would have been the short out to Cook there.  The question isn't which had the better outcome, but in terms of how he'll be used this season, which was the smarter play.  There are dozens and dozens of those from last season.  

 

His production absolutely plummeted from 87 YPG to 45, half of that.  But most importantly, if Diggs really lost a step, it's odd that his Yards-per-Reception-Before-Catch dropped by over 30% from 8.2 to 5.6 yards, but this Yards-per-Reception-After-Catch remained the same at 3.7.  

 

Anyway, here's that highlight video;  

 

 

This "it's Mcdermott's fault" narrative has to stop. Sean Mcdermott has been the coach here for ALL of Josh Allen's career. He was the head coach when we passed on practically every play. You act like Daboll just didn't listen to him and everyone since is his puppet. That's ridiculous.

[Fan in San Diego]

On 5/3/2024 at 7:52 AM, Sweats said:

Wait till the 1st time Worthy gets hit by a LB and then tell me how good he is again.

I agree, speed is overvalued IMHO. WR's get jammed at the line, hand fighting while running, football speed is much slower. If a speed merchant somehow runs free thru the Def, well then you got a problem.

[PBF81]

23 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

This "it's Mcdermott's fault" narrative has to stop. Sean Mcdermott has been the coach here for ALL of Josh Allen's career. He was the head coach when we passed on practically every play. You act like Daboll just didn't listen to him and everyone since is his puppet. That's ridiculous.

 

Then stop it!  I don't believe that I mentioned McDermott once in that post other than for the factually validated, by him primarily, reference to his definition of complimentary football and only in passing reference.  That's it.  The post was about Coleman, Diggs, etc.  

 

And frankly, you know what has to absolutely stop, is how he's got precious little to do with any issues that this team has, particularly in games like 13-Seconds and i the playoffs more generally.  What has to stop is the incessant excuse-making and how little if any of it relates to him.  These implications that his signature isn't all over this team are childish and absurd.  We're the only team in the entire league that isn't defined by its head coach's overall methodology apparently.  

 

As long as you started it and we're in full disclosure mode.  

 

 

Edited May 8 by PBF81

[FireChans]

38 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Contracts?

cough kincaid cough or would you have preferred a receiver with that pick?

Kincaid was on the field with Trent. 
 

Trent even got more snaps than Kincaid. 
 

Maybe we should draft another TE next year and run a 4 TE offense. 

[Mikey152]

18 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Then stop it!  I don't believe that I mentioned McDermott once in that post other than for the factually validated, by him primarily, reference to his definition of complimentary football and only in passing reference.  That's it.  The post was about Coleman, Diggs, etc.  

 

And frankly, you know what has to absolutely stop, is how he's got precious little to do with any issues that this team has, particularly in games like 13-Seconds and i the playoffs more generally.  What has to stop is the incessant excuse-making and how little if any of it relates to him.  These implications that his signature isn't all over this team are childish and absurd.  We're the only team in the entire league that isn't defined by its head coach's overall methodology apparently.  

 

As long as you started it and we're in full disclosure mode.  

 

 

You can't have it both ways...Mcdermott has been the head coach here for 7 seasons, yet his fingerprints are only on the second half of 2023? Ok. Lest we forget Mcdermott fired his original OC to hire Daboll, but of course BD did everything behind Mcdermott's back, right?

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, been on the road and no time for anything fun.  

 

You are correct there, the absolute best QBs in the history of the game, at least in the modern era, were excellent if not masterful at that "all over the field," or short-medium passing game, which is referred to as the high-percentage passing game as you are aware.  There's a reason for that title, ... high-percentage.  LOL  

 

Your statement about Coleman making "big plays out of bubble screens" is issue-laden.  To start, his bubble-screen or otherwise screen plays at FSU rarely amounted to anything significant.  Again, I'll itemize all of his plays, but again, if you watch that every pass video it's beyond clear.  So the question that begs itself, is whether or not, having not been successful at it in college, he'll be successful in the NFL.  The answer seems obvious, and back when we drafted Watkins, who's background was similar, yet with him simply possessing notably greater speed, not even atleticism, Watkins too made a living off of bubble screens in college, which simply do not work to that extent in the NFL.  

 

Regarding your bringing the D up closer to the line statement, that sounds great, but it's also tremendously oversimplified.  And Coleman isn't the type that even if he were to catch a bubble-screen pass, that he'd be difficult to run down.  Again, I think you'd really get a lot from that every pass video.  I've gotten the same exact feeling about him that I got from Hardy whenever we drafted him, and Watkins more recently just on a lower level.  ... from that video, hard evidence.  

 

As to the "more weapons," we'll see.  Numbers of weapons are one thing, but it's the quality, and as you and I often disagree, on how they are used, which appears to be a quite serious shortcoming for our offense this season notwithstanding.  We'll see but my confidence is the lowest it's been since pre-Daboll.  

 

As to your last two points, the second one you are correct, we have no clue, but recognize this, if it is true, then we were seriously lied to all of last offseason/preseason/season.  That doesn't sit very well, or shouldn't.  Also, when can you believe these guys then, you can't.  

 

As to the first point there, Brady wanting to diversify the offense more, we'll have to disagree on that.  It's clear from where a lot of us sit, that Brady's being driven by McD's Complimentary Football approach, which focuses on defense, rushing, and a shorter passing game.  How do we know this, in word-salad fashion, McD's told us so.  Make no mistake, Brady takes his general offensive marching orders from McD.  He owes McD for the promotion, he's not going to be at odds with his overall strategy, for as lacking as it may be.  

 

Either way, let's look at the primary narrative regarding Diggs.  It's that "he lost a step" last season.  Let's forget for a moment that that step was seemingly lost from one game to another, essentially when Brady took over, which would be the first time in NFL history that a WR "lost a step" to that extent within a few days.   If the narrative holds true, and we'll find out for certain this fall, then one would expect that among his worst (aka most tapered off) games, would be the last of the regular season.  But watch this highlight video from that game, and only two plays are being referenced here, not the entire game.  But check out at the 2:53 mark where he dusts Ramsey, does that jibe with the narrative?  Then again at the 5:00 mark where Diggs actually had to slow down after beating Apple before making a great grab of an underthrown ball, does that fit the narrative?  

 

Also, look at how Diggs is used otherwise, that's telling too.  Also, an example of what I mentioned before, that we'll get into more, look at the 4:33 mark, if Allen hits Cook as soon as he sees him break, that's a gain of 7 or 8, more if Apple misses the tackle, on 1st-and-10, but instead he waits, hoping something will open up and then throws it to Knox on the sideline.  Sometimes it works deeper, sometimes not, but we're talking about him focusing on the high-percentage passing game, which would have been the short out to Cook there.  The question isn't which had the better outcome, but in terms of how he'll be used this season, which was the smarter play.  There are dozens and dozens of those from last season.  

 

His production absolutely plummeted from 87 YPG to 45, half of that.  But most importantly, if Diggs really lost a step, it's odd that his Yards-per-Reception-Before-Catch dropped by over 30% from 8.2 to 5.6 yards, but this Yards-per-Reception-After-Catch remained the same at 3.7.  

 

Anyway, here's that highlight video;  

 

 

Thanks for the detailed reply.  My position is pretty simple:  let’s see what happens.