Deion Jones signed to 1-year deal per Schefter

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He would be the best pure route runner on the team imo.

 

When I read this I thought "whoa that's a bit bold for what would have been a rookie 5th rounder." And then I thought about it and I think you are right. Which kinda tells its own story. It isn't about Malik. It is about the fact that this WR corps by any measure is missing a fair few elements that you'd like to have. 

[Kirby Jackson]

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

When I read this I thought "whoa that's a bit bold for what would have been a rookie 5th rounder." And then I thought about it and I think you are right. Which kinda tells its own story. It isn't about Malik. It is about the fact that this WR corps by any measure is missing a fair few elements that you'd like to have. 

Yep. They’ve improved in a couple of areas (mainly size and run after the catch) but took a big step back elsewhere. Diggs was a surgeon as a route runner. They don’t have anyone with route running as a strength. Gabe was flawed but could run the 9. I’m not sure who is supposed to fill that role? 
 

One of my biggest gripes with this group is that I don’t believe that they can handle volume. To handle volume, you need to be a separator. Guys like Beasley and Diggs got the ball a lot because they were open. I think Kincaid will take some of that but not nearly enough. Coleman doesn’t appear to be a volume guy. He feels more like a guy that will catch some fades and crossers. Samuel will see a bunch of touches but I think it’ll be a combination of runs, screens and a few other routes 

 

I think that Washington / Ladd McConkey skill set is an important one. You need someone that can run those possession routes. Kincaid is going to have a ton of pressure on him because he is going to have to be that guy. 

[Dr. Who]

25 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yep. They’ve improved in a couple of areas (mainly size and run after the catch) but took a big step back elsewhere. Diggs was a surgeon as a route runner. They don’t have anyone with route running as a strength. Gabe was flawed but could run the 9. I’m not sure who is supposed to fill that role? 
 

One of my biggest gripes with this group is that I don’t believe that they can handle volume. To handle volume, you need to be a separator. Guys like Beasley and Diggs got the ball a lot because they were open. I think Kincaid will take some of that but not nearly enough. Coleman doesn’t appear to be a volume guy. He feels more like a guy that will catch some fades and crossers. Samuel will see a bunch of touches but I think it’ll be a combination of runs, screens and a few other routes 

 

I think that Washington / Ladd McConkey skill set is an important one. You need someone that can run those possession routes. Kincaid is going to have a ton of pressure on him because he is going to have to be that guy. 

I was pushing for McConkey and an X frequently before the draft. The pushback from folks was we already have McConkey on the roster with Shakir and Samuel; we don't need another slot. It did no good to tell them McConkey lined up on the outside 80% of the time at UGA. He is a master route runner, runs smooth and then breaks violently. We don't have that. They have not replaced Diggs. It is a problem, even if many refuse to acknowledge it.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

When I read this I thought "whoa that's a bit bold for what would have been a rookie 5th rounder." And then I thought about it and I think you are right. Which kinda tells its own story. It isn't about Malik. It is about the fact that this WR corps by any measure is missing a fair few elements that you'd like to have. 

Damning with faint praise.

[White Linen]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was traded from the Falcons. The Browns essentially hacked a year off his contract and yes, with the Panthers it was a 1 year deal. Allowed to leave in that it was three different situations in the three different places. I was trying to find a form of words that covers them all. 

 

4th team in 4 years. They are the facts.

 

The fact is he's a player that has to make the team and is a player worthy of the organization to sign and evaluate.  

 

The fact is you made up anything more than that because you have to go there to appear smarter than everyone.

[White Linen]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yep. They’ve improved in a couple of areas (mainly size and run after the catch) but took a big step back elsewhere. Diggs was a surgeon as a route runner. They don’t have anyone with route running as a strength. Gabe was flawed but could run the 9. I’m not sure who is supposed to fill that role? 
 

One of my biggest gripes with this group is that I don’t believe that they can handle volume. To handle volume, you need to be a separator. Guys like Beasley and Diggs got the ball a lot because they were open. I think Kincaid will take some of that but not nearly enough. Coleman doesn’t appear to be a volume guy. He feels more like a guy that will catch some fades and crossers. Samuel will see a bunch of touches but I think it’ll be a combination of runs, screens and a few other routes 

 

I think that Washington / Ladd McConkey skill set is an important one. You need someone that can run those possession routes. Kincaid is going to have a ton of pressure on him because he is going to have to be that guy. 

 

Gabe could run particular routes sure, but in 8 games he had 2 catches or less.  That's not handling volume.  Diggs is everything you've said but something broke and he lost his, want to, for this team.  His volume faded as the numbers prove that out.

 

I won't go so far as to say, we're definitely better, at WR but I think we are. We've addressed the position and there's a lot of, let's see.  It's a wildly different approach/group for sure.

 

Shakir and Kincaid provided volume last year, which was an issue, not a strength.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

The fact is he's a player that has to make the team and is a player worthy of the organization to sign and evaluate.  

 

The fact is you made up anything more than that because you have to go there to appear smarter than everyone.

 

No I didn't. I spoke facts and you took offence for some unknown reason. I like Deion. But its his 4th team in 4 years.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

The fact is he's a player that has to make the team and is a player worthy of the organization to sign and evaluate.  

 

The fact is you made up anything more than that because you have to go there to appear smarter than everyone.

Brandon Reilly was also signed for the org to evaluate. When do we start his HoF petition?

Edited May 4 by FireChans

[Mat68]

5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Specific to Malik Washington, he has a skill set that the Bills roster currently does not have. He’s incredibly twitchy and gets out of his breaks quickly. That was Diggs. He could find space and because of that could handle volume. It’s a little bit of Beasley. Washington is little but on this roster he had a chance to play and to climb the depth chart. He would be the best pure route runner on the team imo. He would have played over Hollins.

 

I don’t treat PFF as the Bible but at the same time it’s as good as most. The point being that their list of the top 101 players isn’t a travesty. You could probably nitpick a handful of guys here or there. It’s not like the Bills had 4 or 5 guys that were screwed by not being on there. They had 1 guy make the list. 

If he is perceived to be those things Washington would not be a 6th round pick.  Shakir and Samuel operate in a very similar manner but with more size.  Coleman was a style of Wr Allen has not had in some time.  With how defenses are playing them that style could be more productive than slamming a go route into 2 high.  

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

Gabe could run particular routes sure, but in 8 games he had 2 catches or less.  That's not handling volume.  Diggs is everything you've said but something broke and he lost his, want to, for this team.  His volume faded as the numbers prove that out.

 

I won't go so far as to say, we're definitely better, at WR but I think we are. We've addressed the position and there's a lot of, let's see.  It's a wildly different approach/group for sure.

 

Shakir and Kincaid provided volume last year, which was an issue, not a strength.

In terms of Gabe, the question was, “who now runs the 9 route?” 
 

Shakir had 45 targets!! What are you talking about that he handled volume??? Kincaid had 91 targets. If you take just the Brady games it was 40. If you extrapolate that across the season it’s 97 targets. 
 

The WR room last year wasn’t good enough. It was way better than this group. Now if Coleman is good and Shakir continues to develop they can be an average WR room. At the moment, they’re inarguably in the bottom 3. 

14 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

If he is perceived to be those things Washington would not be a 6th round pick.  Shakir and Samuel operate in a very similar manner but with more size.  Coleman was a style of Wr Allen has not had in some time.  With how defenses are playing them that style could be more productive than slamming a go route into 2 high.  

What are you talking about? Why wouldn’t he have been a 6th? He’s little and has short arms, but he’s quick, twitchy and productive. He would have more value on the Bills than on many other teams because we lack that skill set. Neither Shakir nor Samuel are twitchy route runners. They’re converted RBs that are good with the ball in their hands.

 

You have to throw go routes on occasion. If you don’t throw the ball down the field you’re going to see 11 man boxes. It’ll be tough to run, tough to throw those quick screens that Brady likes and difficult for Josh to find space to take off. And before you say, “yeah but Samuel runs a 4.31” he has a career YPC of 10.7 yards. 

[Dr. Who]

24 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

In terms of Gabe, the question was, “who now runs the 9 route?” 
 

Shakir had 45 targets!! What are you talking about that he handled volume??? Kincaid had 91 targets. If you take just the Brady games it was 40. If you extrapolate that across the season it’s 97 targets. 
 

The WR room last year wasn’t good enough. It was way better than this group. Now if Coleman is good and Shakir continues to develop they can be an average WR room. At the moment, they’re inarguably in the bottom 3. 

Well, I can't green checkmark and beer mug all your posts, but we are on the same page. Seems to me that folks want to argue that Diggs and Davis were such non-entities, especially the backend of the season and the playoffs, that they are basically a nullity, so adding anyone is then treated as an "improvement."

 

A variation on that theme is that our offense was too dependent on Diggs, and finesse. Now we are going to be unpredictable and fierce! Okay, but one man's unpredictable is another's not sufficiently talented to scare the opponent enough to demand the defense attend to a special player. Certainly, it is an advantage to have weapons that a team can't afford to ignore. That is how you get winning match-ups for your role players. Possible Kincaid becomes that player. 

 

A key point that you are making that I think deserves attention is that the WR room last year was lacking. It was not good. You could argue it was middling, and that was when Diggs was not injured or acting out. Let's hypothetically grant what I don't think should be granted: pretend the accumulated talent and redistributed targets ends up the equivalent of last year's WR room  at its best. If everyone hits their ceiling, that means you have an average at best overall WR room. That is unlikely to win you championships, but yes, you can make the playoffs with that. 

 

Now what is the likelihood that everyone is going to ascend, and that injuries won't derail plans? The redundancy in the WR room is all at the bottom end. The much more plausible result is you are going to take a step back from average, quite possibly a step back from the less than average you ended 2023 with, which should never happen with Josh Allen as your QB.

Edited May 4 by Dr. Who

[ColoradoBills]

16 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

In terms of Gabe, the question was, “who now runs the 9 route?” 
 

Shakir had 45 targets!! What are you talking about that he handled volume??? Kincaid had 91 targets. If you take just the Brady games it was 40. If you extrapolate that across the season it’s 97 targets. 
 

The WR room last year wasn’t good enough. It was way better than this group. Now if Coleman is good and Shakir continues to develop they can be an average WR room. At the moment, they’re inarguably in the bottom 3. 

 

I find it hard to believe that Brady will not send different WRs deep.  Someone will get 9 routes.

 

It's true that Shakir only had 45 targets, but he caught 39 balls.  He also hasn't had an interception against him in his 2 years in Buffalo.

Gabe had 81 targets but only 45 catches (6 more than Shakir). 6.  6 is also the magic number of interception that Gabe gave up each of

the last 2 years for a total of 12.

 

I had high hopes for Gabe Davis, but they did not come true.  Overall, Davis did not produce enough and had a lot of drive killing INTs and drops.

His production and benefit to the team can easily be made up with another WR on this team. 

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I find it hard to believe that Brady will not send different WRs deep.  Someone will get 9 routes.

 

It's true that Shakir only had 45 targets, but he caught 39 balls.  He also hasn't had an interception against him in his 2 years in Buffalo.

Gabe had 81 targets but only 45 catches (6 more than Shakir). 6.  6 is also the magic number of interception that Gabe gave up each of

the last 2 years for a total of 12.

 

I had high hopes for Gabe Davis, but they did not come true.  Overall, Davis did not produce enough and had a lot of drive killing INTs and drops.

His production and benefit to the team can easily be made up with another WR on this team. 

They’ll have to run some. The question is who? 
 

The Shakir point was a response to, “he handled volume last year.” He didn’t handle volume at all. He was very efficient but on a low target number. I like Shakir a lot and believe that he’s the best WR on the team. Saying that he had volume last year just isn’t true.

 

Gabe wasn’t very good and I didn’t want him back. He did do a couple of things well (primarily get down the field when Josh broke free). We can make up for his production but can we offset his big play ability? That remains to be seen.

[bigK14094]

On 5/2/2024 at 6:02 PM, Special K said:

Insert former Panther joke here.....

Really tired of it.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They’ll have to run some. The question is who? 
 

The Shakir point was a response to, “he handled volume last year.” He didn’t handle volume at all. He was very efficient but on a low target number. I like Shakir a lot and believe that he’s the best WR on the team. Saying that he had volume last year just isn’t true.

 

Gabe wasn’t very good and I didn’t want him back. He did do a couple of things well (primarily get down the field when Josh broke free). We can make up for his production but can we offset his big play ability? That remains to be seen.

 

Thanks for your Davis input.  I bring that up because I do believe the negative plays he generated is not talked about enough.

His occasional big plays are definitely offset by the bad ones and the complete vanishing act in too many games. 

 

I'm as interested as anyone about the deep threat "apparent" void.  I can't answer that, and I will definitely want to see who is doing

that in camp and how they are faring.

 

It will be a challenge for Brady to find a way of splitting Diggs's targets and production among the WRs and TEs.  Another question that

has to be addressed.  I guess my overall opinion is, it's not insurmountable.  It definitely is going to put a change of tactics on Josh Allen's

shoulders.  I'm going to trust him and Brady to figure it out until next season when I see another starting WR brought in.

 

Bottom line for me is I have a hard time being all doom and gloom with Allen as the QB.  Josh and Brady having to be on the same page goes

without saying.

[NoSaint]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was traded from the Falcons. The Browns essentially hacked a year off his contract and yes, with the Panthers it was a 1 year deal. Allowed to leave in that it was three different situations in the three different places. I was trying to find a form of words that covers them all. 

 

4th team in 4 years. They are the facts.

also, sure his contract expired but at that tier, a team can basically own the decision with any modest offer. So that he’s here means they definitely let him walk.

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Thanks for your Davis input.  I bring that up because I do believe the negative plays he generated is not talked about enough.

His occasional big plays are definitely offset by the bad ones and the complete vanishing act in too many games. 

 

I'm as interested as anyone about the deep threat "apparent" void.  I can't answer that, and I will definitely want to see who is doing

that in camp and how they are faring.

 

It will be a challenge for Brady to find a way of splitting Diggs's targets and production among the WRs and TEs.  Another question that

has to be addressed.  I guess my overall opinion is, it's not insurmountable.  It definitely is going to put a change of tactics on Josh Allen's

shoulders.  I'm going to trust him and Brady to figure it out until next season when I see another starting WR brought in.

 

Bottom line for me is I have a hard time being all doom and gloom with Allen as the QB.  Josh and Brady having to be on the same page goes

without saying.

not to speak for Kirby but I think sometimes there are a few of us that express frustration and people read that as 3-14 doom and gloom instead of unlikely to overtake the champion and win one ourselves doom and gloom. 
 

I fully expect us to be very competitive as long as Josh holds up in one piece. Though I think we will need to ask him to shoulder more and for longer to make results happen this year and that’s worrisome. 

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

also, sure his contract expired but at that tier, a team can basically own the decision with any modest offer. So that he’s here means they definitely let him walk.

not to speak for Kirby but I think sometimes there are a few of us that express frustration and people read that as 3-14 doom and gloom instead of unlikely to overtake the champion and win one ourselves doom and gloom. 
 

I fully expect us to be very competitive as long as Josh holds up in one piece. Though I think we will need to ask him to shoulder more and for longer to make results happen this year and that’s worrisome. 

Exactly!! 
 

I still think that the Bills win 11+ games and probably the division. I just don’t see them closer to a championship. Josh will need to be Superman but I fully expect him to be. 

[Mat68]

57 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

In terms of Gabe, the question was, “who now runs the 9 route?” 
 

Shakir had 45 targets!! What are you talking about that he handled volume??? Kincaid had 91 targets. If you take just the Brady games it was 40. If you extrapolate that across the season it’s 97 targets. 
 

The WR room last year wasn’t good enough. It was way better than this group. Now if Coleman is good and Shakir continues to develop they can be an average WR room. At the moment, they’re inarguably in the bottom 3. 

What are you talking about? Why wouldn’t he have been a 6th? He’s little and has short arms, but he’s quick, twitchy and productive. He would have more value on the Bills than on many other teams because we lack that skill set. Neither Shakir nor Samuel are twitchy route runners. They’re converted RBs that are good with the ball in their hands.

 

You have to throw go routes on occasion. If you don’t throw the ball down the field you’re going to see 11 man boxes. It’ll be tough to run, tough to throw those quick screens that Brady likes and difficult for Josh to find space to take off. And before you say, “yeah but Samuel runs a 4.31” he has a career YPC of 10.7 yards. 

Shakir was praised for his route running coming out.  Samuel is very good vs man.  Washington operates on the field in the same area as Shakir and Samuel.  Kind of a redundant player.  Both Isabella and Hamler would have made it hard for Washington to catch on imo.  
 

Depending on match up and look Shakir, Coleman, or Samuel can run a go route.  10.7 is not bad when you take into account what Samuel offers at and behind the LOS.  The offense doesnt have a deep threat.  I do think any of the guys can make plays down field.  All have shown that ability.  Would also like to see Kincaid and Coleman down the seem.  I see Coleman doing all the Davis stuff but offers more underneath with better athleticism and route running upside. 

[ColoradoBills]

11 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

also, sure his contract expired but at that tier, a team can basically own the decision with any modest offer. So that he’s here means they definitely let him walk.

not to speak for Kirby but I think sometimes there are a few of us that express frustration and people read that as 3-14 doom and gloom instead of unlikely to overtake the champion and win one ourselves doom and gloom. 
 

I fully expect us to be very competitive as long as Josh holds up in one piece. Though I think we will need to ask him to shoulder more and for longer to make results happen this year and that’s worrisome. 

 

FTR, I don't put you or @Kirby Jacksonin THAT category.  

 

I'm generally a positive guy but I just posted in another thread how I thought for sure Beane was going to double-dip WR in the draft.

He didn't and I question that move.

That being said, the draft and Beane's choices are history now so I'm not going to dwell on it.  

Until camp starts, I'm just going to watch what happens and try to figure out what their reasoning is.

[Kirby Jackson]

42 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Shakir was praised for his route running coming out.  Samuel is very good vs man.  Washington operates on the field in the same area as Shakir and Samuel.  Kind of a redundant player.  Both Isabella and Hamler would have made it hard for Washington to catch on imo.  
 

Depending on match up and look Shakir, Coleman, or Samuel can run a go route.  10.7 is not bad when you take into account what Samuel offers at and behind the LOS.  The offense doesnt have a deep threat.  I do think any of the guys can make plays down field.  All have shown that ability.  Would also like to see Kincaid and Coleman down the seem.  I see Coleman doing all the Davis stuff but offers more underneath with better athleticism and route running upside. 

I agree that they absolutely are primarily slot guys. I was simply saying that he offers a skill set that they do not currently have.

 

I also think that you’re right, that it’ll be a few different guys down the field. If Coleman can be a more reliable Gabe, he will be a good pickup. Gabe’s issue was that he was so limited in the routes that he ran well. To this point, Coleman has similar struggles. He’s young though and has lots of upside.