Deion Jones signed to 1-year deal per Schefter

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You're likely correct that other things being equal, the Bills would have preferred to bring Dodson and Jackson back, because the Bills do love to hang on to their backups and STers and McDermott values continuity and leadership.

 

But Beane and McDermott have also promoted the idea that their backup LB can step in and start - 'next man up'.  And clearly, the Bills didn't have faith in Dodson as an MLB, or they wouldn't have persuaded Klein to park his RV and hop on a plane.  When you have 4 backup LBs, two of them seasoned vets, and the answer to injury is "platoon the role" or "bring in a guy off the couch", I think it can be argued you need change at the backup LB position.  And I think McDermott and Beane must realize that.

 

I would argue that showed a different path at vet backup was needed.  And at least on paper, Morrow looks like an upgrade - a guy who has had the green dot on his helmet in games, a low-end starter, but willing to play ST - potentially closer to what AJ Klein was in 2020/2021 when he was ahead of Dodson on the depth chart.

Dodson wasn't getting vet min from the Bills, BTW - $2.1M, fully guaranteed.  Matakevich was getting $2.5M, also fully guaranteed.  Dane Jackson, also $2.1M  IT's not like any one of these salaries is exorbitant, but one argument about the Bills cap management is that they've been spreading a lot of their cap out to backups and ST guys.  That's served the Bills well in a lot of ways, but then Beane tells us he's not able to add top FA at edge and WR.  It may be something Beane needs to do differently to get over the top is be willing to "churn" a bit more and have less seasoned players or vets like Morrow

 

They didn't call Klein because they didn't have faith in Dodson. Dodson had been starting at WILL for like 10 weeks while Klein was on the couch. They signed Klein back after Dodson himself got hurt and they were down to Bernard (who then also proceeded to get hurt), Williams (rookie who had struggled) and Spector (never played at linebacker in meaningful NFL games before). They were totally comfortable with Dodson. It was Williams as next man up after the next man up who they were not comfortable with and the injury to Dodson is what brought Klein back. I am 100% confident if the Bills could have got Dodson back for what Morrow signed for (which was where I got the $1.5m-$2m range - what Morrow is making this year vs what Dodson did last) then Dodson would still be here. There is zero doubt in my mind on that. 

 

I agree with the final point, that the Bills have at times had a lot of well paid depth. It gave them one of the deepest rosters in football but it definitely limited their ability at times to pursue bigger ticket items in FA.... although can be argued the one time they did it hasn't exactly worked out. In a year where they have decided to take some pain on the cap they are knowingly trying to reduce that amount. It's a strategy I support.

 

I suspect though we haven't seen the last of Dodson. If it doesn't work out in Seattle wouldn't be shocked to see him back in Buffalo in the next 2-3 seasons. 

[Matt_In_NH]

21 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ll be okay calling pass rusher as the 2nd most important position. Offensive tackle is nowhere near as important as WR. Again, look at the contracts being signed right now. We try to convince ourselves that areas that we are good at are more important than areas that we aren’t good at.

 

Importance of position:

QB - Bills are elite

WR - Bills are bottom 3

DL (all inclusive) - Bills are average with talent but may get results with volume

CB - Bills average to good

OT - Bills good

C - Bills average (although Van Pran could be a steal)

 

S - Bills average

RB - Bills are above average

LB - Bills are elite if Milano is healthy

OG - Bills average to above average

 

ST - Bills are average

 

 

Who said that? Don’t make stuff up to strengthen your 🗑️ perspective.

Pot meet kettle

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

i know Jones from Madden 21 or 22? maybe , ultimate team, he had one of the highest rated cards for LBs. 

 

If not familiar,  it's basically Madden where you create your own team and gain points through challenges and live games and can accumulate cards and make your own roster.

 

Not that it means much but ya, Jones was one of the best lbs 

 

His first five seasons in the NFL 2016-2021 he was one of the best LBs in football. Zero doubt. It was much commented on at the time in the Tremaine Edmunds debates but at the time there was definitely an inbalance in LB talent that skewed towards the NFC. He had some injuries never quite seemed to recover some of his speed and his zest after that. I am surprised he isn't older to be honest. But this is his 4th team in 4 years for a reason. He isn't quite the guy he used to be. 

[JerseyBills]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

His first five seasons in the NFL 2016-2021 he was one of the best LBs in football. Zero doubt. It was much commented on at the time in the Tremaine Edmunds debates but at the time there was definitely an inbalance in LB talent that skewed towards the NFC. He had some injuries never quite seemed to recover some of his speed and his zest after that. I am surprised he isn't older to be honest. But this is his 4th team in 4 years for a reason. He isn't quite the guy he used to be. 

damn 4 in 4 years is not a good sign. Maybe this staff can get him somewhat back. They have a great track record at LB last few years

[HaldimandBills]

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ll be okay calling pass rusher as the 2nd most important position. Offensive tackle is nowhere near as important as WR. Again, look at the contracts being signed right now. We try to convince ourselves that areas that we are good at are more important than areas that we aren’t good at.

 

Importance of position:

QB - Bills are elite

WR - Bills are bottom 3

DL (all inclusive) - Bills are average with talent but may get results with volume

CB - Bills average to good

OT - Bills good

C - Bills average (although Van Pran could be a steal)

 

S - Bills average

RB - Bills are above average

LB - Bills are elite if Milano is healthy

OG - Bills average to above average

 

ST - Bills are average

 

 

Who said that? Don’t make stuff up to strengthen your 🗑️ perspective.

Whose trying to convince who of what? Offensive Tackle is every bit as important as receiver and to say its not close is not close to correct. Now if you want to have a conversation how overrated poorly run teams like the Dolphins have thrown crazy money at receiver while smart run teams like the Packers, Chiefs, Ravens keep investing in their oline and defense over receiver thats a different conversation. There is a reason OT were flying off the board 1st round. No one is saying receiver isn't important. It clearly is in the next position group of importance after QB with Dend and OT. 

 

What would you like the Bills to do? Throw a 3rd or 4th round pick at receiver? Maybe it's just me but I'd like to see our QB having to do less QB sneaks because we have no RB who was useful in the short run game. I'd like our rotational DT to actually sustain pressure in the playoffs rather than be stonewalled. 

 

Our receiver group is not bottom 3. You keep saying this but it isnt true. Bills were predicted to win the Superbowl in 2022 with Isiah Mckenzie as our slot and Gabe Davis as our # 2. This Bills receiver group is better simply by the fact Kincaid is also part of the group by every metric outside of his position title. Kincaid and Knox will be on the field together a lot and Kincaid won't be lined up as a Tight End. I agree the Bills need to add someone post June 1st. I disagree with Bills fans pretending the sky is falling because they didnt draft a 2nd receiver in the mid rounds. To be upset for a budget linebacker signing now when you know the Bills have 10 million coming their way soon for receiver seems kind of silly. 

[Beck Water]

35 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yes, WRs are INFINTIELY more important than off the ball LBs. 

 

We do agree that a guy competing for the 6th LB isn’t a big deal. I think that a WR competing for the 6th WR spot isn’t a big deal either. I do understand why some people might be frustrated though. If the thinking is, “it feels like we have spent a lot more time reworking the bottom of the LB depth chart, than the top of the WR depth chart” that’s fair.
 

I understand that their were limited resources but I have hard time justifying a ST, off the ball LB, that will be 5th or 6th on your depth chart over Malik Washington & Ryan Fluornoy who might have played significant snaps at WR with upside. You were (and still are) desperate at WR but have prioritized off the ball LB depth.

 

Kirby, Kirby, Kirby.  I can go with you that it's more important to have top starting WR than to have top starting off-ball LB.  The fact that the Bills were able to splice together an adequate Milano replacement from a combo of Dodson, Poyer, and Rapp that allowed them to have a sound defense speaks to that. 

 

"INFINITELY" in all caps?  Mmmmm I think what the Bills defense looked like in the playoffs while we were playing The Ghost of AJ Klein and One Winged Dodson, would show that's not true.

 

So you're upset because the Bills valued a potential backup LB and STer over a WR drafted 24 slots later (meaning 2/3 of the league didn't see him as "significant snaps with upside") and 56 slots later (meaning all of the league didn't see him as "significant snaps with upside" and then again 2/3 again)? 

 

Mmmm Ok, if those guys turn into Puka Nacua or even play significant snaps for Miami and Dallas, I will come back here and give you your props.

 

I think the Cold Hard Football Facts are that a backup LB who plays ST is more likely to play meaningful snaps this season, especially with the Bills having moved on from 2 ST stalwarts at LB.  And if the Bills are counting on a 6th round rookie WR for significant snaps with upside, then we really haven't done enough to address WR.

 

Which actually, I'm concerned about, but I can't get all fluffy about taking a LB over a WR late in the 5th.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, HaldimandBills said:

Whose trying to convince who of what? Offensive Tackle is every bit as important as receiver and to say its not close is not close to correct. Now if you want to have a conversation how overrated poorly run teams like the Dolphins have thrown crazy money at receiver while smart run teams like the Packers, Chiefs, Ravens keep investing in their oline and defense over receiver thats a different conversation. There is a reason OT were flying off the board 1st round. No one is saying receiver isn't important. It clearly is in the next position group of importance after QB with Dend and OT. 

 

What would you like the Bills to do? Throw a 3rd or 4th round pick at receiver? Maybe it's just me but I'd like to see our QB having to do less QB sneaks because we have no RB who was useful in the short run game. I'd like our rotational DT to actually sustain pressure in the playoffs rather than be stonewalled. 

 

Our receiver group is not bottom 3. You keep saying this but it isnt true. Bills were predicted to win the Superbowl in 2022 with Isiah Mckenzie as our slot and Gabe Davis as our # 2. This Bills receiver group is better simply by the fact Kincaid is also part of the group by every metric outside of his position title. Kincaid and Knox will be on the field together a lot and Kincaid won't be lined up as a Tight End. I agree the Bills need to add someone post June 1st. I disagree with Bills fans pretending the sky is falling because they didnt draft a 2nd receiver in the mid rounds. To be upset for a budget linebacker signing now when you know the Bills have 10 million coming their way soon for receiver seems kind of silly. 

 

I don't agree with all of this but I do have sympathy with the first para. Personally I'm still of the view at top tier LT is as valuable as any receiver. What I do think is there are fewer top tier LTs than there are elite level WR talents and that is just a product of the college game and the way it is being played, but I'm of the view that a bad blindside tackle is one of the easiest ways to lose a football game. I'd add the rebuild of the Lions to your list of tackle savvy teams. They have the best tackle duo in football and I personally think Decker and Sewell are more important to that offense than St Brown. 

[Logic]

If I even dare to suggest that Matt Milano may be in danger of starting the season on PUP, I'll be pilloried. So I won't dare to suggest it...

...but...

This is certainly an interesting signing for a team that already boasted Milano, Bernard, Williams, Spector, Ulofoshio, Morrow. 

I see Milano, Bernard, Williams, Ulofoshio, and Morrow as the likely 5 LBs they keep (they kept 5 last year). If Milano were to start the season on PUP (which I don't even dare to suggest is a possibility), then it could come down to a battle between Spector and Jones for the 5th and final spot.

[HaldimandBills]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree with all of this but I do have sympathy with the first para. Personally I'm still of the view at top tier LT is as valuable as any receiver. What I do think is there are fewer top tier LTs than there are elite level WR talents and that is just a product of the college game and the way it is being played, but I'm of the view that a bad blindside tackle is one of the easiest ways to lose a football game. I'd add the rebuild of the Lions to your list of tackle savvy teams. They have the best tackle duo in football and I personally think Decker and Sewell are more important to that offense than St Brown. 

 So what part do you disagree with? 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HaldimandBills said:

 So what part do you disagree with? 

 

I take a different view on the value of the picks the Bills made in the mid rounds. I am not super high on Carter as a player, I do like Davis a fair bit but I'm not sure I agree with you on the importance of a rotational DT and a short yardage back as difference making moves for this team in 2024. Equally I do think our WR room is bottom 3. In terms of PROVEN production at the NFL level we have Samuel and his circa 550 yards per season average over his 6 healthy seasons, Mack Hollins a career backup and half a season of Khalil Shakir. that is not a lot of proven production. Then we have some question marks. I think it is pretty thin. 

 

Where I agree with you is on the value of offensive tackle. 

[Beck Water]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They didn't call Klein because they didn't have faith in Dodson. Dodson had been starting at WILL for like 10 weeks while Klein was on the couch. They signed Klein back after Dodson himself got hurt and they were down to Bernard (who then also proceeded to get hurt), Williams (rookie who had struggled) and Spector (never played at linebacker in meaningful NFL games before). They were totally comfortable with Dodson. It was Williams as next man up after the next man up who they were not comfortable with and the injury to Dodson is what brought Klein back. I am 100% confident if the Bills could have got Dodson back for what Morrow signed for (which was where I got the $1.5m-$2m range - what Morrow is making this year vs what Dodson did last) then Dodson would still be here. There is zero doubt in my mind on that. 

 

I agree with the final point, that the Bills have at times had a lot of well paid depth. It gave them one of the deepest rosters in football but it definitely limited their ability at times to pursue bigger ticket items in FA.... although can be argued the one time they did it hasn't exactly worked out. In a year where they have decided to take some pain on the cap they are knowingly trying to reduce that amount. It's a strategy I support.

 

I suspect though we haven't seen the last of Dodson. If it doesn't work out in Seattle wouldn't be shocked to see him back in Buffalo in the next 2-3 seasons. 

 

Agree that the full picture of why the Bills called Klein is more nuanced than I presented, but I think the point stands that the Bills went into the season presenting Dodson and Spector as a serious options at MLB.  Early in the season, when we were ahead in a couple games they pulled Bernard and Milano for Dodson and Williams.  When Bernard went down vs Cincinnati, I believe they tried Williams rather than Spector (Dodson was already playing for Milano).

 

I guess one can argue against shifting position on 2 guys, though the Bills have cheerfully done that on OL before.  I just don't think they were comfortable with Dodson at MLB to start Klein at MLB ahead of him vs. KC, and certainly not comfortable with any of the rest of their depth - Matakevich, Spector, Williams.

 

So I think it's a valid point that they acknowledge their LB depth needed overhaul, even though, overall, I agree with you that if they could have kept Dodson they would have.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

15 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

Im guessing we’re keeping 6 LBs like usual. 
 

We know they Milano, Bernard, and Williams are locks 

 

Beyond that we have Ulofoshio who we drafted in the 5th and is likely to make it for STs

 

Jones seems to have the inside track at Mike backup 

 

Morrow and Spector battling for the last spot 

 

I'd have to agree.  End of roster battles are important to push those players.  

[Beck Water]

32 minutes ago, Logic said:

If I even dare to suggest that Matt Milano may be in danger of starting the season on PUP, I'll be pilloried. So I won't dare to suggest it...

...but...

This is certainly an interesting signing for a team that already boasted Milano, Bernard, Williams, Spector, Ulofoshio, Morrow. 

I see Milano, Bernard, Williams, Ulofoshio, and Morrow as the likely 5 LBs they keep (they kept 5 last year). If Milano were to start the season on PUP (which I don't even dare to suggest is a possibility), then it could come down to a battle between Spector and Jones for the 5th and final spot.

 

I mean you can suggest it, I won't pillory you - as was pointed out up-thread, the Bills and Milano have both been un-forthcoming with details of his injury, and the upper range of the RTP time presented by BangedUpBills would put him returning in early September.

 

I just don't think signing a guy who was a very good linebacker in his day, but was a vet minimum player who started the season on practice squad for Carolina last season is particularly interesting or out of line.  It seems like SOP to me - try to grab some quality vets who can compete for spots at the back of the roster.  We'll have Jones competing with Morrow and Spector for the backup Mike, and Morrow competing with Williams for the backup OLB.  Ulofoshio's shot at the roster is on ST.

 

We normally carry 6 LB on the roster and we carried 9 LB into camp last season.

Edited May 3 by Beck Water

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Agree that the full picture of why the Bills called Klein is more nuanced than I presented, but I think the point stands that the Bills went into the season presenting Dodson and Spector as a serious options at MLB.  Early in the season, when we were ahead in a couple games they pulled Bernard and Milano for Dodson and Williams.  When Bernard went down vs Cincinnati, I believe they tried Williams rather than Spector (Dodson was already playing for Milano).

 

I guess one can argue against shifting position on 2 guys, though the Bills have cheerfully done that on OL before.  I just don't think they were comfortable with Dodson at MLB to start Klein at MLB ahead of him vs. KC, and certainly not comfortable with any of the rest of their depth - Matakevich, Spector, Williams.

 

So I think it's a valid point that they acknowledge their LB depth needed overhaul, even though, overall, I agree with you that if they could have kept Dodson they would have.

 

I think when they got down to their best two options being Dodson and Klein you HAD to put Klein at Mike. He couldn't have played will. His horizontal movement was never his strength even when he was a full time NFL player. The alternative, much discussed in that KC buildup week, was Dodson at Mike and Williams at Will which they did try a bit second half. And I think the fact was they just didn't trust Williams. When he came in against Pittsburgh he kept lining up incorrectly. I think that you are probably right though that Morrow is their preferred MLB reserve for 2024. 

[Warcodered]

58 minutes ago, Logic said:

If I even dare to suggest that Matt Milano may be in danger of starting the season on PUP, I'll be pilloried. So I won't dare to suggest it...

...but...

This is certainly an interesting signing for a team that already boasted Milano, Bernard, Williams, Spector, Ulofoshio, Morrow. 

I see Milano, Bernard, Williams, Ulofoshio, and Morrow as the likely 5 LBs they keep (they kept 5 last year). If Milano were to start the season on PUP (which I don't even dare to suggest is a possibility), then it could come down to a battle between Spector and Jones for the 5th and final spot.

The problem with this idea is that Jones makes sense as a depth signing for emergencies, not really as a plan to cover for Milano.

[HaldimandBills]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I take a different view on the value of the picks the Bills made in the mid rounds. I am not super high on Carter as a player, I do like Davis a fair bit but I'm not sure I agree with you on the importance of a rotational DT and a short yardage back as difference making moves for this team in 2024. Equally I do think our WR room is bottom 3. In terms of PROVEN production at the NFL level we have Samuel and his circa 550 yards per season average over his 6 healthy seasons, Mack Hollins a career backup and half a season of Khalil Shakir. that is not a lot of proven production. Then we have some question marks. I think it is pretty thin. 

 

Where I agree with you is on the value of offensive tackle. 

See. I think Carter is an upgrade over the rotational DT's we had last year and will prove to be an excellent rotational DT. I was disgusted by the lack of push the DT had in that Chiefs game and I think Oliver was over used down the stretch. The Bills had next to no options in the way of a decent pass rush 3 Tech behind him. Time will tell, but the Bills must maintain consistent pressure up the middle come playoff time. Thats why for me DT was a must and Carter had solid production in College. 

 

Short yardage RB who can also take significant snaps receiving out of the backfield is an integral part of Joe Brady offense and will also prove valuable. I am not a fan of pushing Josh Allen into a pile 10 times a game. I also think the Bills become less predictable on offense with a RB like Davis in the redzone. For this reason I also think this was an important high value pick. Certainly more valuable than a 4th round receiver. 

 

Time will tell on who is wrong about our recieving room. Your argument is lack of production most likely means bottom 3. That's one way of looking at things but again the off season isn't over. Bills have an additional 10 million coming up soon. I am of the belief Beane knows he has a guy signed after June 1st. I could be wrong but that 10 million isn't going to go unused and receiver seems most logical to me. 

 

I believe Shakir, Samuel, Coleman, and Kincaid as receiving threats is a heck of alot better than Diggs, Davis, Isiah Mckenzie, and Knox. Thats who we had in 2022 when everyone thought we were going to win it all. 

 

I also think this is a two step program for Beane. We have 1 (1st) 2 (2nds) 1 (3rd) and 4 (4ths) next draft. Currently sit 15 million under the cap in 2025 vs. 50 million over this season. We have alot of room to add pieces to this team with only Brown and Rosseau needing significant new contracts. 

[harmonkillebrew]

14 hours ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

I'd rather have D.J Clark but unsure of everything lol

Well we missed out on both.

But good thing we got Chase Claypool!!

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Well we missed out on both.

But good thing we got Chase Claypool!!

 

I would have liked Chark, but he signed for $5M.  Beane couldn't sign him until after June 1st with the cap the way it is.

Can't blame Chark for taking the money now.

[harmonkillebrew]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I would have liked Chark, but he signed for $5M.  Beane couldn't sign him until after June 1st with the cap the way it is.

Can't blame Chark for taking the money now.

You really think Beane was ever going to sign Chark or OBJ?  We've seen how much he loves bargain bin shopping for WRs.

Claypool and Mack Hollins are this year's Sheffield and Harty. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, HaldimandBills said:

See. I think Carter is an upgrade over the rotational DT's we had last year and will prove to be an excellent rotational DT. I was disgusted by the lack of push the DT had in that Chiefs game and I think Oliver was over used down the stretch. The Bills had next to no options in the way of a decent pass rush 3 Tech behind him. Time will tell, but the Bills must maintain consistent pressure up the middle come playoff time. Thats why for me DT was a must and Carter had solid production in College. 

 

Short yardage RB who can also take significant snaps receiving out of the backfield is an integral part of Joe Brady offense and will also prove valuable. I am not a fan of pushing Josh Allen into a pile 10 times a game. I also think the Bills become less predictable on offense with a RB like Davis in the redzone. For this reason I also think this was an important high value pick. Certainly more valuable than a 4th round receiver. 

 

Time will tell on who is wrong about our recieving room. Your argument is lack of production most likely means bottom 3. That's one way of looking at things but again the off season isn't over. Bills have an additional 10 million coming up soon. I am of the belief Beane knows he has a guy signed after June 1st. I could be wrong but that 10 million isn't going to go unused and receiver seems most logical to me. 

 

I believe Shakir, Samuel, Coleman, and Kincaid as receiving threats is a heck of alot better than Diggs, Davis, Isiah Mckenzie, and Knox. Thats who we had in 2022 when everyone thought we were going to win it all. 

 

I also think this is a two step program for Beane. We have 1 (1st) 2 (2nds) 1 (3rd) and 4 (4ths) next draft. Currently sit 15 million under the cap in 2025 vs. 50 million over this season. We have alot of room to add pieces to this team with only Brown and Rosseau needing significant new contracts. 

 

You are right that our backup DTs last year sucked. I said they would when we wasted money signing them. But when we have holes at premium spots backup DT didn't seem super value (and I am not high on Carter). Similarly at backup RB I do like Davis just isn't great value. If you were spending a 4th on a first string running back fair enough. For a second string short yardage back that to me isn't good asset allocation. In six drafts it is a second, two thirds and a fourth on running backs. The most devalued position on the football field.

 

On receiving room my argument is absolutely lack of proven production equates to bottom three. Sure Coleman could end up a stud rookie. Sure Samuel could have a career year (if he stays healthy I think that is very likely actually), sure Kincaid thrown in adds a dimension. But at the same time do I think it is better than the 2022 receiving room? No. In 2022 they had an elite player. That to me matters more than anything else. Elite players win. Nobody in this group is approaching that. 

 

As for cap - the $10m we having coming off is needed for our draft class and BEFORE we sign a single draftee of 2024 we have only $5m in space (not $15m) against the projected cap for 2025. Of course the cap could be higher. It was a bit this year. But that isn't a great basis on which to be planning. 

 

Don't get me wrong I am not a negative nelly. I think this Bills team will still win 10 or 11 games. I think the offensive line could end up as a sneaky strength. I am less bothered about the Morse loss than a lot of people. I think Ed Oliver will have another good year and with Milano, Bernard and Taron at the second level we will be good there too. And Cook, Shakir, Kincaid, Brown etc can all take another step. But there are reasons - wide receiver, edge, safety - to believe this team will have some issues in 2024. I think it is a reload season.