Beane literally added a promising draft prospect at every level on both sides of the ball

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

I ask you, since you eyeroll'd my post: In the five drafts since Josh Allen became a Buffalo Bill, can you identify any difference makers or All-Pros that Brandon Beane has drafted? 

I don't mean good players that start NFL games. I already conceded that he does a nice job at finding those. I'm talking elite players. Difference makers. Can you name any?

Benford, Torrence and Kincaid are pretty early but both look really good, didn't Cook lead the league in Offensive yards?, Taron Johnson, Ed Oliver is up there as well.

 

As to why I rolled my eyes, it not that complicated, whether you like the pick or not it really shouldn't impair your understanding of what a ceiling is.

[BeastMaster]

15 minutes ago, Logic said:

Promising of what, exactly?

If it's promise of making the roster and getting playing time and contributing on some level, then I agree.

If it's promise of becoming an elite player, I don't see much of that in this class.

I very much hope to be proven wrong, but Keon Coleman looks to me like his ceiling is as a high end WR2. Maybe Cole Bishop becomes a playmaking safety. Maybe Soloman is a steal at Edge and becomes a sack master.

But when I look at Ray Davis, DeWayne Carter, a center, a couple project tackles, a special teams linebacker, and an undersized punt returner, I see what look like fine-to-good, sort of replacement level players. I see more of what Beane has done in the past: solid drafts that produce rosterable players, but no difference makers. He arguably hasn't found a difference maker in the draft since Josh Allen. Lots of good, steady, NFL caliber players. Few stars.

The norm for drafts under Brandon Beane (ever since the Allen/Edmunds draft) has become "solid to good, but never great". No home runs. No All-Pros. No REAL difference makers. Right now, this draft just looks like the latest chapter in that book.

Difference makers don't grow on trees, and when your draft position is near the bottom of each round it only decreases your odds of finding those players.

 

He made the right decision this offseason to retool the roster and do what he does which is to get us players that add to the teams quality of depth and give us a few starters hopefully.

 

The difference maker/makers will hopefully come via free agency next season or we use draft capital to either draft a top player or trade for one.

[In Summary]

Keeping the O line stocked was every bit as important as getting a full WR corps.

[mathja]

4 hours ago, skibum said:

Literally ever single team in the NFL can say the same exact thing. You just can't grade a draft until the kids play ball. 

The jets added 2 rbs and a backup qb in the middle rounds - very unlikely to be real contributors on that roster. 
i did really like their first 2 picks. 

[Logic]

Just now, Warcodered said:

Benford, Torrence and Kincaid are pretty early but both look really good, didn't Cook lead the league in Offensive yards?, Taron Johnson, Ed Oliver is up there as well.

 

As to why I rolled my eyes, it not that complicated, whether you like the pick or not it really shouldn't impair your understanding of what a ceiling is.

Thanks.

I agree that the three players you mentioned from the 2023 draft look good, and that it's too early to definitively state that any of them won't be stars. Cook looks good, too, but seems to be about the 10th best running back in football.

 

Taron Jonson and Ed Oliver are good players, no doubt. But they have a combined zero All-Pro seasons and zero Pro Bowl nods. Johnson made a huge play in the Ravens playoff game in 2020, but in the three years since, neither guys have affected our playoff fortunes much. Even if I grant that Taron Johnson is VERY good, that was still the 2018 draft, and I was asking about the five (now six, actually) drafts since then.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that Dalton Kincaid and James Cook become perennial Pro Bowlers. That still means that in the five drafts between 2019 and 2023, Beane found two true standout players. And that's if the assumption even comes to fruition.

I'm simply saying that he's a guy who consistently has good drafts and drafts good players, but he rarely has GREAT drafts where he drafts GREAT players.

As for Coleman's ceiling, it's not exactly an objective reality. It's more of a subjective opinion that differs from person to person. If you believe his ceiling is as an alpha WR1, then I don't begrudge you that opinion. My opinion is that his ceiling is Tee Higgins or Mike Williams.




 

[TheWeatherMan]

5 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

I think Beane is not getting enough props for adding a piece to every single group on both sides of the ball. This is an infusion of youth everywhere on the roster.

 

We are now a younger team that has good depth pretty much everywhere.

 

We may need a gamechanger or two, but now at least you reloaded the roster with promising young players, and next season we will have cap space and even better draft capital to make a power move or two should we have a glaring need.

 

I like the approach, and we'll see how good McDermott and his staff really are given the makeup of the roster

Good depth doesn’t win championships…elite talent coupled with elite coaching does.   We don’t have elite coaching and we have one player elite player.  Name one player we drafted that you think will be a game changer and please explain why.  

[Logic]

7 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

Difference makers don't grow on trees, and when your draft position is near the bottom of each round it only decreases your odds of finding those players.

 

He made the right decision this offseason to retool the roster and do what he does which is to get us players that add to the teams quality of depth and give us a few starters hope.fully

 

The difference maker/makers will hopefully come via free agency next season or we use draft capital to either draft a top player or trade for one.

I only buy the "drafting late makes it hard to find difference makers" argument to an extent, particularly when Brandon Beane moves around the draft board as much as he does.

The Eagles, for instance, always seem to be picking pretty late in the draft, but I would rank their roster as considerably better than Buffalo's, and their drafts as usually superior.

As for the middle sentence that I bolded: That's exactly my point. That's what Beane does. His drafts typically get us players that "add to the team's quality of depth and gives us a few starters hopefully".  What he has NOT done nearly often enough the past few years, is get anything BEYOND that. Anybody who is among the elite at their position or gets All-Pro votes.

Beane is consistently good at getting consistently good players. My contention is that he has not gotten any GREAT ones in the past five years, and we need one or two of those on our roster to have a hope of ever getting past the Chiefs on a consistent basis.
 
 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

On paper they added a few nice pieces.

The WR, DT, S, RB, and C probably all make the roster.  Two out of 10 picks that will probably start seems a bit underwhelming but there really are only a few starter spots up for grabs. Again this is why so many of usxwanted two WRs.  Not sure Coleman is worthy of starting but they literally have no one else to play his role.

Will be interesting to see if McD plays the rookie safety or plays it safe with the vets on the team. Would be a real shame if he is the 3rd safety all year battling with Cam Lewis for snaps.

Now if the DT and RB get sig reps it will be better. Maybe the late day CB makes it if he proves he can return kicks. 

I don't understand why they took two more OL. There is no roster spot for either. 

And who can't win a SuperBowl without an undersized STs linebacker??? I kid I kid....

55 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Picking up a 3rd to move back 3 spots and still getting the guy they wanted is not some slight.  Signing a Wr for 30 mil and adding 2 safeties for 5 shows what they value more too. 

To be fair they didn't pick up a 3rd moving back 3 spots. They just moved up 40 spots or so. They didn't get an extra pick.  

[NoSaint]

5 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

I think Beane is not getting enough props for adding a piece to every single group on both sides of the ball. This is an infusion of youth everywhere on the roster.

 

We are now a younger team that has good depth pretty much everywhere.

 

We may need a gamechanger or two, but now at least you reloaded the roster with promising young players, and next season we will have cap space and even better draft capital to make a power move or two should we have a glaring need.

 

I like the approach, and we'll see how good McDermott and his staff really are given the makeup of the roster

to be fair, most posters could pick a promising player at each area of need 

 

that’s not the hard part 

[Heitz]

4 hours ago, McBean said:

 

I mean, things certainly aren't Kragled either 🤷‍♂️

 

 

 

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks.

I agree that the three players you mentioned from the 2023 draft look good, and that it's too early to definitively state that any of them won't be stars. Cook looks good, too, but seems to be about the 10th best running back in football.

 

Taron Jonson and Ed Oliver are good players, no doubt. But they have a combined zero All-Pro seasons and zero Pro Bowl nods. Johnson made a huge play in the Ravens playoff game in 2020, but in the three years since, neither guys have affected our playoff fortunes much. Even if I grant that Taron Johnson is VERY good, that was still the 2018 draft, and I was asking about the five (now six, actually) drafts since then.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that Dalton Kincaid and James Cook become perennial Pro Bowlers. That still means that in the five drafts between 2019 and 2023, Beane found two true standout players. And that's if the assumption even comes to fruition.

I'm simply saying that he's a guy who consistently has good drafts and drafts good players, but he rarely has GREAT drafts where he drafts GREAT players.

As for Coleman's ceiling, it's not exactly an objective reality. It's more of a subjective opinion that differs from person to person. If you believe his ceiling is as an alpha WR1, then I don't begrudge you that opinion. My opinion is that his ceiling is Tee Higgins or Mike Williams.




 

and Benford just mysteriously disappears, didn't bring up Groot because he's seemed more solid-good, plus it seemed like they more asked him more to set the edge and contain but he's done that. Also Kincaid looks to be another solid contributor and before Gabe Davis accidentally inverted his controls so was he. As to All-Pros Taron Johnson is a Nickel Corner so of course he didn't get any and what because he didn't have a pick 6 he didn't contribute in the playoffs in 2021-23, do you really think that? and Ed was robbed he was right up there with the top guys at his position. Also someone I didn't mention because obviously you weren't going to care about it but he picked Siran Neal who yes was a ST player but he was also a ridiculous gunner for a period I mean that pic of three guys covering him is insane.

 

I mean this doesn't seem all that complicated Beane has been struggling to address the DL position and that's what he had been working on at the top of the draft for a couple of years at the top of the draft in those years, besides that on a very good roster he's filled in picks behind guys so now we see Kincaid develop or we see Benford come up last year. Hell Spencer Brown even seems to be developing, he keeps going and that'll be pretty decent pick.

 

Coleman's ceiling, yes people opinions may differ but a player's ceiling is the best version of the player, and Coleman a freak athlete with his testing numbers would have a very high ceiling.

[hondo in seattle]

5 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

I think Beane is not getting enough props for adding a piece to every single group on both sides of the ball. This is an infusion of youth everywhere on the roster.

 

We are now a younger team that has good depth pretty much everywhere.

 

We may need a gamechanger or two, but now at least you reloaded the roster with promising young players, and next season we will have cap space and even better draft capital to make a power move or two should we have a glaring need.

 

I like the approach, and we'll see how good McDermott and his staff really are given the makeup of the roster

 

Well, we needed talent almost everywhere.  And Beane found players he liked for a variety of position groups.  So far, so good.

 

I have an open mind about each new player.  But I also know, historically, that most draft picks do not become valuable starters.   So, there's that.  I'm intrigued but I'll wait before judging Beane's work a success or failure.  

[Mat68]

37 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

On paper they added a few nice pieces.

The WR, DT, S, RB, and C probably all make the roster.  Two out of 10 picks that will probably start seems a bit underwhelming but there really are only a few starter spots up for grabs. Again this is why so many of usxwanted two WRs.  Not sure Coleman is worthy of starting but they literally have no one else to play his role.

Will be interesting to see if McD plays the rookie safety or plays it safe with the vets on the team. Would be a real shame if he is the 3rd safety all year battling with Cam Lewis for snaps.

Now if the DT and RB get sig reps it will be better. Maybe the late day CB makes it if he proves he can return kicks. 

I don't understand why they took two more OL. There is no roster spot for either. 

And who can't win a SuperBowl without an undersized STs linebacker??? I kid I kid....

To be fair they didn't pick up a 3rd moving back 3 spots. They just moved up 40 spots or so. They didn't get an extra pick.  

Without the move back they don't get the third. 

[KentuckyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

This is unwarranted. Beane has essentially now given Allen 3 1st round caliber players to throw to. Diggs via trade, Kincaid last year and now Coleman. 
 

He also signed Beasley in his prime. 
 

If you want to say he didn’t do it early enough okay I can hear ya but he has given him good ball players to throw to 

In 6 years he's given him 3 first round type talent pass catchers, 2 of which are still yet TBD on how good they really are... Other than that, not a single player before the 4th round.

 

Now compare that to other SB contending teams. This front office has failed Josh Allen. Period.

[msw2112]

3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

They traded their #1 WR and are eating a $31 million dead cap hit for it this year. I am not sure how realistic it is to expect the offense to be better this season.

 

Maybe they are better as a whole because they distribute the ball around more, or because they have better chemistry/energy/team camaraderie (etc). 

 

But $31M is a massive amount of dead cap. I think it’s the largest dead cap hit in NFL history iirc? It 100% puts them at a competitive disadvantage this season.

Adding a big money #1 WR most likely isn’t happening. That doesn’t mean this offseason is a failure.

 

IMO this offseason was about the start of a roster retool - getting younger and cheaper at a # of positions. The old core wasn’t able to get it done. Time to try something new. Retooling this team wasn’t going to happen in one offseason. The cap situation looks a lot better starting next season, though.

 

"That decision means that [Russell] Wilson will count $53 million against Denver's salary cap in 2024 and $32 million in 2025. The “dead cap” charges would have totaled $85 million regardless, but the Broncos could have opted to account for $35.4 million this year and $49.6 million in 2025."

[BeastMaster]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I only buy the "drafting late makes it hard to find difference makers" argument to an extent, particularly when Brandon Beane moves around the draft board as much as he does.

The Eagles, for instance, always seem to be picking pretty late in the draft, but I would rank their roster as considerably better than Buffalo's, and their drafts as usually superior.

As for the middle sentence that I bolded: That's exactly my point. That's what Beane does. His drafts typically get us players that "add to the team's quality of depth and gives us a few starters hopefully".  What he has NOT done nearly often enough the past few years, is get anything BEYOND that. Anybody who is among the elite at their position or gets All-Pro votes.

Beane is consistently good at getting consistently good players. My contention is that he has not gotten any GREAT ones in the past five years, and we need one or two of those on our roster to have a hope of ever getting past the Chiefs on a consistent basis.
 
 

The Eagles had arguably the worst defense in the league last season, so they have a major weakness which this team does not have. We are top ten on each side of the ball, so while you may think their roster is considerably better, the results last year say otherwise. They also traded for AJ Brown who is arguably their best player...he wasn't drafted by them. Jalen Hurts was a hit, but I think he had a bit of a fluke year when they went to the superbowl. The jury is still out on whether he is worth the contract he got. Their linebackers and secondary are abysmal, and they have taken low character/off field issue players when they fell to them. That is high risk, high reward.

 

If you wanna crucify Beane for not hitting on elite talent, then best of luck to you finding the GM that hits on them while maintaining a roster that you can manage cap wise, personality wise, and keep well rounded like this one...cause he has done just about everything else you could ask for. He brought in Diggs which payed dividends for his tenure here, and Miller looked to be that difference maker on defense until the injury, so he recognized the need and addressed it with proven commodities...luck just wasn't with us.

 

I wouldn't trade our roster for the Eagles whatsoever. There was internal issues there last season, and AJ Brown is another Diva that brings as much drama as he does receiving talent. Allen is clearly superior to Hurts, and I'll take our good Oline and defense vs their great Oline and poor defense

 

 

 

 

[Logic]

9 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

 

 

If you wanna crucify Beane for not hitting on elite talent, then best of luck to you finding the GM that hits on them while maintaining a roster that you can manage cap wise, personality wise, and keep well rounded like this one...cause he has done just about everything else you could ask for. He brought in Diggs which payed dividends for his tenure here, and Miller looked to be that difference maker on defense until the injury, so he recognized the need and addressed it with proven commodities...luck just wasn't with us.

 

I wouldn't trade our roster for the Eagles whatsoever. There was internal issues there last season, and AJ Brown is another Diva that brings as much drama as he does receiving talent. Allen is clearly superior to Hurts, and I'll take our good Oline and defense vs their great Oline and poor defense

 

 

I haven't crucified anyone. I'm a fan of Brandon Beane's, and I could make a big, long post talking about all the great things he's done here. I'm glad he's the GM of the Bills and, for the time being, I'm glad he's gonna continue to be the GM of the Buffalo Bills.

There's a culture around sports teams sometimes that if you question or criticize ANYTHING a GM or coach does, you must be some kind of "hater". I am very clearly NOT that. I'm one of the most optimistic Bills fans you'll ever meet, and I like both our GM and our head coach. 

It's okay to have differences of opinion with some of the moves that a general manager makes. It doesn't mean it's a crucifixion. 

As for the second bolded line: Again, that's my argument. He's done just about everything else -- short of bringing in much elite talent the past five years -- that you could ask for. That's my whole point. Brandon Beane does literally everything OTHER than draft difference makers for this team. That's why I continue to believe he's a very good GM, and that's also why I believe it will continue to be hard to get over the hump and win a title. He's got to find a way to bring another elite player or two. If he doesn't, I foresee many divisional round playoff exits to come.

Edited April 29 by Logic

[papazoid]

The Bills gave a rookie minicamp invite to Troy quarterback Gunnar Watson

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bills-give-minicamp-invite-to-10-000-yard-qb-after-breakout-season/ar-AA1nRSSz?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=cdbee3299e9848e696701019fa9766fa&ei=25

[Cray51]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

So you’re saying they made smart moves. Im not sure how this refutes my point.

 

 

Huh? Burrow is not on a rookie deal.

 

His contract is larger than Allen’s.

Burrow was on a rookie deal until recently, and all success Burrow had against the Bills (and achievements) are while he was on his deal.  So they could disperse funds towards other positions while he was on that deal.

 

Chase is on his fifth year

Higgins just now is on the Franchise tag.

 

Your point (if I'm not mistaken) was the Bengals have been able to be more successful than the Bills and have cap space right now, I'd simply point out the situations have been entirely different.  The Bills were never as bad as the Bengals were, and have not had the luxury of two top 6 picks (being at two vital positions) on rookie deals for 5 years as a way to fill out the roster with available funds.  Not to mention, the first year Beane came to the team he had to clear a load of dead cap, which limited the way he could turn the team around in 2018/2019.

 

You are right, Burrow is no longer on his deal.  However, Chase (a top 10 WR in the game) is $9M this year.  Burrow's actual hit is $29M.  Higgins even on the tag is $21.  They have been able to hold core pieces for small amounts of money, and this year is their first real year of cap impact.  That $23M will not be so high next year, unless they offload talent (like the Bills did).

 

Regarding the Chiefs comments - The Chiefs are the best team in the league over the past 5 years.  The Bills have been a top 5 team over the past 4 years.  The Bills are like the Chiefs - they have a core piece (Allen/Mahomes) and they have other core talent locked down (Kelce/Milano/Jones/Miller/Etc.).  The main difference is the Chiefs dealt Hill instead of giving him an extension, where as the Bills gave Diggs an extension and now have moved him.  That's a $30M sway (and accounts for the cap you discuss the Chiefs having).  It's one move.  I don't hold this organization to the fire over one move.  They are fixing the problem it caused, but they aren't dumb in aggregate.  The Chiefs have made smart moves - the Bills have made smart moves.  The Chiefs made a smart move one more time than the Bills did.  And even then, it didn't look like a smart move until the Chiefs won it all this year.

[NewEra]

7 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

I think Beane is not getting enough props for adding a piece to every single group on both sides of the ball. This is an infusion of youth everywhere on the roster.

 

We are now a younger team that has good depth pretty much everywhere.

 

We may need a gamechanger or two, but now at least you reloaded the roster with promising young players, and next season we will have cap space and even better draft capital to make a power move or two should we have a glaring need.

 

I like the approach, and we'll see how good McDermott and his staff really are given the makeup of the roster

You know you made a nice post when the two blokes who rolled their eyes at you are @KDIGGZand @TheWeatherMan

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

This is not a reload. It's a rebuild,  there's a big difference. And as of right now we have no clue how these guys pan out.  Perpetual optimism and "wait till next year" gets old after watching this movie for 55 years.

Stop.  Find a new hobby