What's the point of this team's philosophy?

[harmonkillebrew]

34 minutes ago, VW82 said:

The collective amnesia of last season is interesting. It feels like a lot of you processed the first half as "it was all Dorsey's fault" as appose to Josh having issues staying in the pocket and taking what the defense gave him. 

 

The whole "maserati" thing flamed out as Josh repeatedly threw downfield into baits and traps that resulted in break ups, drive killers, and picks. 

 

Brady came in and re-introduced the running game which included designed runs from Josh. We had Josh spreading it around with a focus on completions and keeping the chains moving. That's when our offense stopped being so one-dimensional and we became dangerous as a contender. 

 

Now so many Bills fans want to go back to finding another "stud" so our "maserati" can be unleashed again. That isn't what's worked. That's not really who Josh is when he's at his best. That's not how we're going to take the next step to eventually contending for SBs. 

It's a fair point. Josh was bad in a few of the early games, but Dorsey's scheme and play calling was more to blame. I don't know who said Maserati, or what that even means, but I think most people's point is that the short-stuff game that Brady introduced also was figured out by the playoffs and didn't really work. Josh's legs were lethal, but our inability to attack the defenses at multiple levels made us easier to defend.  The idea is that moving forward we should have a plethora of options ways to attack, to keep defenses on their heels. Instead, we've doubled down on the middle of the field, <10yd pass attempts, adding a guy that profiles as a big slot to an O with a big slot already (Kincaid) and two smaller, quick slots (Samuel and Shakir). 

 

I'm still waiting for someone who knows Xs and Os to explain it to me.  I guess we'll just see how it plays out.  Assume Brady has a plan for all these guys and the lack of a true boundary WR

[WotAGuy]

5 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Again, the context.  

 

 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

21 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Bombs away isn't consistent. Yes, Allen can throw it 65 yards down field but to ask a WR to get open on that route or time things perfectly is no easy task as we saw with Diggs' playoff drop. Instead you play small ball to keep moving down field until get a TD or hopefully get a FG aka put points on the board. Sure you can throw a deep pass every so often to take a chance and/or keep the defense honest but to think you're going to hit one with any form of consistency is just foolish. I'll admit Coleman wasn't in my short list of WRs I wanted to us to draft. Yet I've been wrong before as I admit I never expected Josh Allen to be a top 5 NFL QB and even muttered Wrong Josh when he was drafted because watching the clips in college he wasn't always taking the way throw to move the chains and seemed like a guy who threw it long or a ball that most of the time wouldn't get completed. The more you watch the more you realize the best way to beat an opponent is don't beat yourself. As most games nowadays are won and loss by a handful of plays. 

Obviously u can't throw the ball deep on every play but u do need the threat of being able to if it's not covered. As of right now this roster doesn't have that explosive speed threat on the outside. Teams are going to flood the short to intermediate passing lanes and dare us to hit them deep . By the very least the Bills needed to draft a speed wr after they selected Coleman and they failed to do so. It's a smack in the face of Bills fans when Beane mentioned players futures contracts for the reason why they didn't double dip. Tyrell Shavers are FN kidding me! 

[davefan66]

Speed is great, doesn’t win games.

 

Ball control. RB’s who can get that 1-2 yards to keep the drive moving so the QB doesn’t get smoked. WR’s who actually CATCH the ball.  O-line giving the QB time to set up and can block for the runner. Those are just a few things that help teams win.

 

Speed wins? No, Dolphins can attest to that. You need smart players who play fast.  Guys who can get open are more important than speed.  Kincaid, Shakir showed they can do that last year.  Need more of it. Josh needs to throw guys open, anticipate a little better. Having a guy who can win the contested ball is good, but that shouldn’t be how to play every down.  Design plays to get the guy open.  KC does a good job of that, kept a lot of drives going last year against us. 
 

Trade Josh?? His strengths are mobility, ability to read defenses, escape under pressure, strong arm for short and intermediate passes, team leader.  The long ball offense has long ago died in the NFL, just ask the Raiders.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, davefan66 said:

Speed is great, doesn’t win games.

 

Ball control. RB’s who can get that 1-2 yards to keep the drive moving so the QB doesn’t get smoked. WR’s who actually CATCH the ball.  O-line giving the QB time to set up and can block for the runner. Those are just a few things that help teams win.

 

Speed wins? No, Dolphins can attest to that. You need smart players who play fast.  Guys who can get open are more important than speed.  Kincaid, Shakir showed they can do that last year.  Need more of it. Josh needs to throw guys open, anticipate a little better. Having a guy who can win the contested ball is good, but that shouldn’t be how to play every down.  Design plays to get the guy open.  KC does a good job of that, kept a lot of drives going last year against us. 
 

Trade Josh?? His strengths are mobility, ability to read defenses, escape under pressure, strong arm for short and intermediate passes, team leader.  The long ball offense has long ago died in the NFL, just ask the Raiders.

 

Quick Q:

 

Tyreek Hill or Kalil Shakir, also saying reading defenses is Josh's strong suit...is a take

 

 

Edited April 30 by Pine Barrens Mafia

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Obviously u can't throw the ball deep on every play but u do need the threat of being able to if it's not covered. As of right now this roster doesn't have that explosive speed threat on the outside. Teams are going to flood the short to intermediate passing lanes and dare us to hit them deep . By the very least the Bills needed to draft a speed wr after they selected Coleman and they failed to do so. It's a smack in the face of Bills fans when Beane mentioned players futures contracts for the reason why they didn't double dip. Tyrell Shavers are FN kidding me! 

Samuel.  Hamlet.  Isabella.  Three guys on the roster right now with speed.  I am sick to death of this stuff.  Why assume there was a guy on day 3 that offers more?

[Bills Bud]

I agree. You don’t have a QB like Josh to dink and dunk the ball. It’s frustrating when people talk about WRs and bring up James Cook is a good pass catcher. Do you have the guy with strongest arm in the NFL to throw the ball to the RB 10 times a game? I hope not. Might as well get a guy like Jimmy Garappalo and pay him a quarter of what Josh is getting if that’s the gameplan

Edited April 30 by Bills Bud

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Bills Bud said:

I agree. You don’t have a QB like Josh to dink and dunk the ball. It’s frustrating when people talk about WRs and bring up James Cook is a good pass catcher. Do you have the guy with strongest arm in the NFL to throw the ball to the RB 10 times a game? I hope not. Might as well get a guy like Jimmy Garappalo and pay him a quarter of what Josh is getting if that’s the gameplan

again, if you look at the stats from last year there was about one pass per game in the league that was 40 yards or more.

[Bills Bud]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

again, if you look at the stats from last year there was about one pass per game in the league that was 40 yards or more.

Depends what team. The Bengals (who have proven to the best to beat the Chiefs) had  one of the best deep attacks. I’m not bringing up last year cause Burrow was injured. They would throw the ball down the field a lot with Chase and Higgins. We are trying to be the Chiefs with the dink and dunk… and you won’t do that better than them. Let Josh be Josh and let it rip. McDermott has held him back imo

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, Bills Bud said:

Depends what team. The Bengals (who have proven to the best to beat the Chiefs) had  one of the best deep attacks. I’m not bringing up last year cause Burrow was injured. They would throw the ball down the field a lot with Chase and Higgins. We are trying to be the Chiefs with the dink and dunk… and you won’t do that better than them. Let Josh be Josh and let it rip. McDermott has held him back imo

Josh's arm strength is shown where he fits the ball into tight windows, where he hits a guy on an out route that is well covered, and such.  Throwing a 60 yard bomb is not the be all and end all of arm strength.  

[HOUSE]

Why must there be a point ?

[NastyNateSoldiers]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Samuel.  Hamlet.  Isabella.  Three guys on the roster right now with speed.  I am sick to death of this stuff.  Why assume there was a guy on day 3 that offers more?

I can imagine this is the exact way Beane would reply.

 

So your gonna say an oft injured Hamler and a journey man in Isabella is gonna all of a sudden become weapons in the NFL? or a career long possession wr in Samuel is all of a sudden going to become a deep threat? I don't know what football your watching . These are definitely not the answers and you will witness that come September and if I'm wrong I'll admit it. 

[nedboy7]

A good question would be why did Josh want Keon. Regardless they can sign a FA speedster to complete this WR room.  I just don’t trust they will?  

[oldmanfan]

22 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I can imagine this is the exact way Beane would reply.

 

So your gonna say an oft injured Hamler and a journey man in Isabella is gonna all of a sudden become weapons in the NFL? or a career long possession wr in Samuel is all of a sudden going to become a deep threat? I don't know what football your watching . These are definitely not the answers and you will witness that come September and if I'm wrong I'll admit it. 

I am saying a day 3 pick this past weekend is hardly a guaranteed improvement over what is currently on the roster

Edited April 30 by oldmanfan

[BillsVet]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Why would they let their OC have major influence? He's their 3rd in 4 years. Under McDermott it's written in stone that we'll have to hire a new OC every 2-3 years because the current one will always eventually be fired or hired away as a head coach. And it's not like McDermott is dictating the long-term offensive philosophy beyond a vague oversight. So any time we add players to the offense it won't be with any particular system in mind. They're going to throw a bunch of low investment guys at the coach and tell him and Allen to figure it out.

 

A lot of fans have seemingly convinced themselves that small ball, ball control offense has been the plan all along. I don't think that's true at all. I think the personnel investments have forced that to be the only valid offensive philosophy we can use this year. Is it what Brady wants? The guy that coached an LSU offense featuring Ja'Marr Chase and Justin Jefferson? Color me skeptical. But it's the offense he'll get and he'll like it, or else we'll cycle on through to the next offensive coach getting their feet wet.

 

Ironic that their defense has been well-defined since Day 1 of this regime schematically and in personnel.  Offense, not so much.        

 

I think McD has always wanted a strong(er) running game, because he prioritizes the offense along what he fears most on defense.  And his defense can be susceptible to a strong running game.  Still, that's maybe not ideal given league-wide trends that favor passing and who he has at QB.  Problem is, the OC's he hired all saw they had Josh Allen and weren't going to avoid using him like Brady seems willing to given the priorities and lack of complete passing options.   

 

Issue with this offense...it's safe and predictable.  Running the ball complemented with a short to intermediate passing game and personnel to match.  The quick-strike ability doesn't fit with reducing the defense's time on field.   

 

Then again, that's the HC.  He plays it safe on draft day with Beane.  Safe offense.  A defense that is structured, but the scheme hasn't changed much in years.  Safe gets you perhaps into the playoffs, but not much further as demonstrated by the past few years.    

[BarleyNY]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Some talking head somewhere said that Brady was basically trying to call the offense McD wanted for the last 8 weeks so he could get the job.

Well, McDermott is his boss. Why wouldn’t he call games like his boss wanted him to do? I would think they spoke about that before Brady took over - and throughout the season. Seems like he was on board enough to take the job. 

[harmonkillebrew]

1 hour ago, nedboy7 said:

A good question would be why did Josh want Keon. Regardless they can sign a FA speedster to complete this WR room.  I just don’t trust they will?  

It was interesting that apparently he was texting him during the draft telling him he's the guy he wants.

Did they let Josh make the call?...  I would imagine that Keon plays with passion and is there competing every play. Seems to be a character too. Probably good teammate and guy to have in the locker room.  but not so good for the Xs and Os

[SoTier]

12 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

If one of Josh's talents is throwing long passes, then this team is in trouble because from what I've seen that's on of the things he does worst at.  20 yard passes, maybe 25 to 30 on occasion he's good.  But long passes he's almost always way long or way short.

 

When you actually calculate the difference between Worthy's time to run 40 yards down field and say Curtis Samuel it's less than 1 yard  In other words when Worthy is down field 40 yards Samuel would be just beyond 39 yards.  So do you actually believe that little difference is going to keep a defense honest or not??   If Samuel can't keep the defense honest, doubt someone as fast as Worthy would either.  Add to that Allen is all over the map on deep throws.

 

Actually, most QBs have always "all over the map on deep throws".   There's just too many factors to get right to make "bombs away" a successful strategy long term.  

 

It's also been tried before.  Ever hear of "Air Coryell"?  Under HC Don Coryell the Chargers had their own Maserati in Dan Fouts.  In Coryell's 8 year tenure, the Chargers made the playoffs 4 times and the conference championship twice but never made the Super Bowl ... and this was back in the days before FA and salary caps made it really hard to pair a super QB with a bunch of really good WRs.

 

 

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Well, McDermott is his boss. Why wouldn’t he call games like his boss wanted him to do? I would think they spoke about that before Brady took over - and throughout the season. Seems like he was on board enough to take the job. 

I hear you. I don’t think it’s malicious or anything, I think he ran the offense McD wanted.

 

I think it’s just more proof that he will run what McD wants going forward.

[stuvian]

I think we're going to see a run first offense this year