What's the point of this team's philosophy?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

9 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You have a QB that's a Maserati. He's built for bombs away. But instead of building your offense for that, you build it for plodding, 10 yards at a time max, 10 minute drive offense. So I ask, what is the point?

 

What's the point of having a guy who's designed by nature to bomb the football deep and whose weakness is dink and dunk stuck in an offensive scheme that is built to do just thWhy not offload him for someone who's better suited for that kind of thing if you refuse to play to his strengths? That's what I can't wrap my head around. It makes no sense.

 

As has been stated by others the success rate of long passes is fairly low to start with. I can recall the past year long passes by Allen that were both 5 yards over thrown and just as many under thrown.  The margin of error on long passes is just small, too many things can go wrong then add the weather on top of it all.  Maybe a QB like Tua needs to stretch the field as he doesn't have the arm strength to thread the needle and the needed fastball on a 20 yard completion, but Allen does.

 

I can recall in Gabe Davis rookie year and 2nd year, Allen throwing sideline completions to him on a regular basis, but for whatever reason by his 3rd season, they became drops. That's what we need back again the 20 yard completions, if you complete one long pass every other week on average, you're doing good.

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

What we needed to replace in the receiver room was drops.  Replace those guys with players that can consistently catch the ball.  Samuel and Coleman don't drop the ball so I like both being added.  Speed receivers while stretching the field only account for 1-2 throws a game.

Hopefully with all that extra cap$ next year we can sign a speed wr who doesn't drop the ball.

[BillsVet]

55 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It is my understanding that 12 carries for 72 yards and two TDs should be factored into any evaluation. He was great in that game. Also, bringing up the defense is irrelevant because it's not the subject of the discussion. Regardless, leaving out the most important games because of some arbitrary threshold doesn't really make sense.

 

The defense is a part of the discussion because it doesn't have built-in durability.  From 2017-23, they relied on veterans who had the experience, but had/have a lot of mileage on them and would get banged up.  And then there's the LB's who, while good in coverage, don't hold up with both missing key games.  I'm really not surprised they put another body at S, LB, and CB given the rampant injuries there.       

 

And that naturally spills over into how they scheme the offense, which when the defense is banged up, has the brakes put on it.  Only now, the skilled receiving talent hinges on improvement from 2nd and 3rd year guys, a WR who might be a big slot type, and a having a strong running game.  Difference this season is, I don't see anyone who can threaten deep.  And, I'm not expecting their OL to be as healthy as they were last year. 

 

For Buffalo to win using this method against top teams, everything has to go right.  The offense needs to get leads allowing the defense to play downhill and force teams to throw into that zone.  When it works, it's great...but when it doesn't, things get ugly.  You end up with Josh lugging it as Brady and his two predecessors needed.    

Edited April 29 by BillsVet

[BananaB]

3 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Hopefully with all that extra cap$ next year we can sign a speed wr who doesn't drop the ball.

Better chance McD signs a 30+ year old Dline for his rotation because the young guys need 3 years to develop 

[MJS]

Do the Chiefs have a good QB? Do you know what their style of offense was last year? Take what the defense gave them in the passing game, and run it a lot.

 

Defenses are dropping into coverage and forcing offenses to take the underneath stuff. They are forcing offenses to be patient.

 

You are behind on offensive and defensive trends. It isn't  2019 anymore. The best offenses are running the ball more and putting bigger bodies on the field.

[Nextmanup]

I wouldn't offload Josh to suit our stupid game plan, I would modify the game plan to suit Josh.

 

It is VERY fair to criticize this organization for having made it this far into the off-season, without have a replacement for Diggs.

 

I honestly do not think they intend to replace him...THIS YEAR.

 

OR, they incorrectly think they have his replacement already on staff.

 

The fact that this has transpired in a historically WR laden draft makes it worse.

 

We emerge from a draft like THIS with 1 guy?  And he is very much a controversial guy at that.

 

If we end next year about the same as normal, McD and Beane should be for sure on the hot seat, and maybe both fired....

 

I've said this for like 3 years now....the day will come when McD is FIRED for failure to get it done.  It's basically just a question of how much of Josh's career you want to piss away first.

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

It is my understanding that 12 carries for 72 yards and two TDs should be factored into any evaluation. He was great in that game. Also, bringing up the defense is irrelevant because it's not the subject of the discussion. Regardless, leaving out the most important games because of some arbitrary threshold doesn't really make sense.

 

We're talking about methodologies here.  The team's answer come playoff time has been let Allen do everything.  

 

Anyone thinking that that MO is going to carry us through three or four playoff games to a Lombardi is delusional.  This just in, there are great coaches and teams in this league that can plan around that, ... as they've done to date.  

 

 

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

Can you say Allen’s passing effort was down during that game when WRs were dropping balls all over the field. I can count 3 big ones off the top of my head. And he did score the most points against KCs D throughout the playoffs which isn’t that bad. Problem was the D gave up the most against KC O through the playoffs

 

It's a comparison between Brady and Dorsey.  Sorry, I hadn't realize that we had no dropped balls during Dorsey's time.  

 

Y'all with the dropped balls.  It might make some sense sometime if you looked at all the dropped balls we had and the contexts that they were in.  Many were in games that we won.  

 

Think what you want otherwise, but I won't be reduced to a single stat.  Feel free to be however.   

 

 

[dave mcbride]

47 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

The defense is a part of the discussion because it doesn't have built-in durability.  From 2017-23, they relied on veterans who had the experience, but had/have a lot of mileage on them and would get banged up.  And then there's the LB's who, while good in coverage, don't hold up with both missing key games.  I'm really not surprised they put another body at S, LB, and CB given the rampant injuries there.       

 

And that naturally spills over into how they scheme the offense, which when the defense is banged up, has the brakes put on it.  Only now, the skilled receiving talent hinges on improvement from 2nd and 3rd year guys, a WR who might be a big slot type, and a having a strong running game.  Difference this season is, I don't see anyone who can threaten deep.  And, I'm not expecting their OL to be as healthy as they were last year. 

 

For Buffalo to win using this method against top teams, everything has to go right.  The offense needs to get leads allowing the defense to play downhill and force teams to throw into that zone.  When it works, it's great...but when it doesn't, things get ugly.  You end up with Josh lugging it as Brady and his two predecessors needed.    

I was responding to a debate about Brady specifically. 

[Green Lightning]

The OP is right. DC's will just give up and let Josh go deep all the time as it's impossible to defend. 

[oldmanfan]

People keep talking about molding the offense around Josh and throwing long.  But it’s not like he’s the only QB with an arm.  Mahomes has an arm.  Brady had one.  Peyton.  They won Super Bowls as I recall by taking what the defense gave, and taking deep shots when available.  I think Josh can do that too.

Edited April 29 by oldmanfan

[WotAGuy]

49 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

We're talking about methodologies here.  The team's answer come playoff time has been let Allen do everything.  

 

Anyone thinking that that MO is going to carry us through three or four playoff games to a Lombardi is delusional.  This just in, there are great coaches and teams in this league that can plan around that, ... as they've done to date.  

 

 

 

It's a comparison between Brady and Dorsey.  Sorry, I hadn't realize that we had no dropped balls during Dorsey's time.  

 

Y'all with the dropped balls.  It might make some sense sometime if you looked at all the dropped balls we had and the contexts that they were in.  Many were in games that we won.  

 

Think what you want otherwise, but I won't be reduced to a single stat.  Feel free to be however.   

 

 

How about 5-5 with Dorsey and 6-1 with Brady? 

[Jauronimo]

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

The best laid schemes of mice and men are often thwarted.  I don't think the offense we've seen from the Bills is exactly what Beane intended when he put the roster together.  I think some of his player acquisitions have been disappointments to him. 

 

And Beane is the GM, not the OC.  I believe that there have been times when Beane has thought Dorsey or Brady has underutilized the tools provided.  

 

While the OL was better last year, I do wonder why Beane hasn't made the OL a bigger priority.  When you have a highly talented - and compensated - QB, you would think acquiring a skilled bodyguard would be critically important.  

I believe last year and the year before, the roster was built to score fast, get leads, and then get after the QB with Von, Groot, and Floyd.  Which worked perfectly against Miami before it all went to hell.  Allen is a big play guy and this approach made sense.  

 

We know defenses are all attempting to force the premier QBs to string together long drives with 2 high safeties and take away the big play.  Looks like this year's team will play ball control.  It was ugly at times last year.  We effectively ran out of time against New England in the first match up since we couldn't score fast enough.  KC playoff game we were left in no man's land in terms of clock management but it almost worked.  Allen has done it at times but I still question if he has the maturity to take what the defense is giving him all night combined with the clutchness to capitalize when the big play opens up.  

[NORWOODS FOOT]

11 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You have a QB that's a Maserati. He's built for bombs away. But instead of building your offense for that, you build it for plodding, 10 yards at a time max, 10 minute drive offense. So I ask, what is the point?

 

What's the point of having a guy who's designed by nature to bomb the football deep and whose weakness is dink and dunk stuck in an offensive scheme that is built to do just that?

 

Why not offload him for someone who's better suited for that kind of thing if you refuse to play to his strengths? That's what I can't wrap my head around. It makes no sense.

i’m with you on this one. In a pre-draft post I talked about both Xavier Worthy and Keon Coleman. I had good things to say about both of them, but when we passed on Worthy, I was pissed. It’s not even so much that I was mad about passing on that player in particular. It’s just the complete lack of a coaching philosophy that builds around the strengths we already have. 
 

Look, if Josh Allen and Keon Coleman lead us to a Super Bowl win I’ll crawl down the street in front of the parade wearing a tutu and repent with loud wailing. But you have a QB with possibly the strongest arm the league has ever seen that can move around and buy time. So dear God, load your roster up with wide receivers that can kill it on the second and third level of the defense.

 

We already have a couple of tight ends to take care of the underneath stuff as well as a running back that can catch. I think that’s a better way to what they’re doing.

 

we have a stubborn defensive minded head coach that is fairly good at figuring out how to stop offenses, but I really don’t think that he knows how to build one that can compete with the best offensive of minds in the game.

Edited April 29 by NORWOODS FOOT

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

We're talking about methodologies here.  The team's answer come playoff time has been let Allen do everything.  

 

Anyone thinking that that MO is going to carry us through three or four playoff games to a Lombardi is delusional.  This just in, there are great coaches and teams in this league that can plan around that, ... as they've done to date.  

 

 

 

It's a comparison between Brady and Dorsey.  Sorry, I hadn't realize that we had no dropped balls during Dorsey's time.  

 

Y'all with the dropped balls.  It might make some sense sometime if you looked at all the dropped balls we had and the contexts that they were in.  Many were in games that we won.  

 

Think what you want otherwise, but I won't be reduced to a single stat.  Feel free to be however.   

 

 

You’re talking about the KC playoff game. Allen was our best player on the field. His passing stats might not be great but there were 3 key drops that took about 150+ yards off the field. Dude can’t catch it himself. There are other players on the field ya know. Can’t blame the defense for being tired either because Allen controlled the clock most of the game, it was our D that sucked ass. I also think Cook dropped what would have been an easy TD pass, then Allen ran it in. Go figure

[PBF81]

55 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

How about 5-5 with Dorsey and 6-1 with Brady? 

 

How about it?  

 

Read the context of the entire conversation among all involved and get back to me. 

 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, BananaB said:

You’re talking about the KC playoff game. Allen was our best player on the field. His passing stats might not be great but there were 3 key drops that took about 150+ yards off the field. Dude can’t catch it himself. There are other players on the field ya know. Can’t blame the defense for being tired either because Allen controlled the clock most of the game, it was our D that sucked ass. I also think Cook dropped what would have been an easy TD pass, then Allen ran it in. Go figure

 

We're not talking about a single game here.   

 

And yes, the D did suck ass.  No argument there.  That's been a perennial pet peeve on McD's watch.  

 

There are lots of reasons, what you say actually feeds into the argument that was made.  And BTW, Allen overthrows it quite often as well.  Let's not overlook that either.  In fact, in the last game of the season, Diggs had both Apple and Ramsey beaten on two deep throws.  Allen horribly overthrew him, it would easily have been a TD.  On another play Diggs had beaten one or the other (forget which on which play), but Allen threw it OTM to Knox for a decent gain.  But had he thrown it to Diggs it would have been a TD.  

 

Again, that was our last game in which Diggs was supposed to be at his worst and slowest, and he had two very good CBs beaten on at least three plays in that game.  Yet, the narrative stands that he can't get away from even average DBs anymore.  

 

 

[Roundybout]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

 

We know defenses are all attempting to force the premier QBs to string together long drives with 2 high safeties and take away the big play.

 

This is a point that isn't being brought up much. While it doesn't mean we don't lack speed, it also means that deep bombs are a declining part of teams' offenses. Teams are adjusting; that's what's so great about the NFL. 

[Chandler#81]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6PK_JuvDPC/?igsh=a2tjMW01a2hpbnRh

[harmonkillebrew]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I wouldn't offload Josh to suit our stupid game plan, I would modify the game plan to suit Josh.

 

It is VERY fair to criticize this organization for having made it this far into the off-season, without have a replacement for Diggs.

 

I honestly do not think they intend to replace him...THIS YEAR.

 

OR, they incorrectly think they have his replacement already on staff.

 

The fact that this has transpired in a historically WR laden draft makes it worse.

 

We emerge from a draft like THIS with 1 guy?  And he is very much a controversial guy at that.

 

If we end next year about the same as normal, McD and Beane should be for sure on the hot seat, and maybe both fired....

 

I've said this for like 3 years now....the day will come when McD is FIRED for failure to get it done.  It's basically just a question of how much of Josh's career you want to piss away first.

 

 

It sure is looking more and more like that.

But I have to put some of the failure on Beane too. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Reading through most of this I think we can all agree that we want to see the Bills up by three scores late in the 4th quarter so that we take the in-game strategy away from our crack coaching staff! Whichever offensive “philosophy” gets us up by at least 21 points I’m all for it. 👍

[harmonkillebrew]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

People keep talking about molding the offense around Josh and throwing long.  But it’s not like he’s the only QB with an arm.  Mahomes has an arm.  Brady had one.  Peyton.  They won Super Bowls as I recall by taking what the defense gave, and taking deep shots when available.  I think Josh can do that too.

 

3 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

As has been stated by others the success rate of long passes is fairly low to start with. I can recall the past year long passes by Allen that were both 5 yards over thrown and just as many under thrown.  The margin of error on long passes is just small, too many things can go wrong then add the weather on top of it all.  Maybe a QB like Tua needs to stretch the field as he doesn't have the arm strength to thread the needle and the needed fastball on a 20 yard completion, but Allen does.

 

I can recall in Gabe Davis rookie year and 2nd year, Allen throwing sideline completions to him on a regular basis, but for whatever reason by his 3rd season, they became drops. That's what we need back again the 20 yard completions, if you complete one long pass every other week on average, you're doing good.

Need to have the threat of the home run, or even deep post/out to keep Defenses honest.  That involves WRs with the talent to do it, which we have none of now. We will not threaten outside the numbers down the field and probably only down the middle deep on seams to Kincaid. It's going to be all underneath stuff and ball control.  I just think that wastes one of Josh's supreme talents. He'll never be Brady, he's a gunslinger. 

 

The schematic mismatch with his HC is becoming painfully obvious.