Beane on WR "We worked out a guy today we are going to end up signing"

[birdo67]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

As a former Toledo resident I'm offended. I also offending myself for being a Toledo resident. 

 

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Not blaming Beane because they would prolly have gotten him anyway but Worthy is a good get for KC. I see Worthy as a guy who is a better receiver than he is often given credit for and if there is anyone who can develop him its Andy Reid. 

Sure , any offensive player could be a good get for KC. They’re going to draft somebody so worrying about it is a fools errand. 

[Kirby Jackson]

26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

One, I was high on him coming into the draft and you can see that in my posting history.  So this isn’t me “wanting” to be happy with the pick, it’s me being happy with the pick because I spent a lot of time on the WRs this year, including talking to people I trust.  
 

Everyone is going to have different opinions, but all the whining (not saying you) and labeling the kid as a bust or capping his potential by people around here who nothing about him or that getting separation and open has very little to do with 40 times is as over the top as it was on Josh Allen, Bernard, Milano, etc.  

 

Let the kid play.  He’s gonna prove a lot of problem wrong around here and I’m very confident about that personally.   

 

Obviously we differ on Coleman. For me, it’s bigger than just him. They needed more speed. They needed another guy that can run routes and eat targets. They didn’t invest enough resources into WR (regardless of the Coleman pick). My philosophy is that if you have Josh Allen, your biggest responsibility is loading up around Josh Allen. You do that at the expense of other parts of the roster. The Bills differ philosophically. They have neglected the 2nd (or 3rd) most important position. They need Josh to cover up and elevate those around him. 
 

I so desperately want you to be right. Josh Allen had similar odds coming out and he overcame it. 🍻

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, transient said:

 

My point was more that it's a bit hyperbolic to say it's inexcusable to ask your elite QB in his prime to throw to an inferior cast of WR talent around him. It's not ideal, but once the axe started to fall on the roster after the end of the season with the Bills in cap jail, it is what it is.

 

2024 was destined to be a reset regardless of what we wanted to believe. Drafting a WR in the later rounds of this draft wasn't likely to change it for next season. Bringing in has-been headcases would only make it worse.  Like it or not, it appears that the Bills are going to be asking Allen to make the offense in 2024 greater than the sum of its parts.

 

If the guys they brought in can at least catch, outside of Shakir and Kincaid, that would be a nice change of pace from last season.

I think you are one of the credible posters here. I don't quite agree with you, but I understand your point.

I'm not interested in drafting a WR in the later rounds. They needed to draft two early, or plan on bringing in a veteran post 6/1 that isn't ready for the glue factory.

Obviously, it is a reset year. I think you can do that and not have one of the worst WR rooms in the league, which is what I think they have, even if the plan is to redistribute targets and use RB and TE more.

 

For instance, if there is a secret trade that brings in Aiyuk for 2025 draft capital, and they have a way of fitting him under the cap, and extending him, I'd think Beane had an excellent plan, and he was not irresponsible about the WR room. If not, I think he is carrying forward his Carolina roots which neglected the position when Beane was there. 

[MrEpsYtown]

This is why I don’t bet. Didin’t have Quintez Chephus on my bingo card

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

Obviously we differ on Coleman. For me, it’s bigger than just him. They needed more speed. They needed another guy that can run routes and eat targets. They didn’t invest enough resources into WR (regardless of the Coleman pick). My philosophy is that if you have Josh Allen, your biggest responsibility is loading up around Josh Allen. You do that at the expense of other parts of the roster. The Bills differ philosophically. They have neglected the 2nd (or 3rd) most important position. They need Josh to cover up and elevate those around him. 
 

I so desperately want you to be right. Josh Allen had similar odds coming out and he overcame it. 🍻

And it’s ok to differ on him, nothing wrong with that.  But I do think the people who are down him is mostly because they really don’t understand who he is or what we just drafted.  I also think people fail to realize how much speed is actually on this team right now.  
 

Kincaid is one the most promising young TEs in the game and going to be a nightmare for defenses as soon as maybe this year.  When you point out how bad the back to back SB Champs are in the WR room the first thing they say is well they have Kelce, best TE ever even though he’s lost a step.  So why is KC allowed to have a bad WR room and depend on one TE and the Bills aren’t allowed to have a better WR room and a TE that will be better this year than Kelce was last year?

 

Then you have Shakir who runs close a 4.4 forty himself and is a YAC machine.  Samuel runs a 4.31 forty himself and is only 27.  

Then you have James Cook, a fast and explosive RB both as a runner and receiver out of the back field.  
 

Now add in Josh Allen who is one of  

the most dangerous QBs while running ever.

 

For anyone to think we don’t have speed on this team is misguided.  And again, Coleman not only improved his 40 time significantly, he also had the fastest gauntlet of anyone which is a much more important indicator of true in game speed.  
 

It’s all good, nothing but respect for you as a poster.  But I am very confident people are going to be looking back midseason next year both realizing I was right about Shakir (from my other thread) and I was right about Coleman being a dog for us.  This dude can ball and Bills Mafia will realize that this year.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I legit can't think of one of the top of my head

 

Maybe chargers?

 

I think they are the only one with less proven production at the NFL level than the Bills. Chargers 32. Bills 31. New England 30. 

 

What I will say is the Chiefs would have been 32 on this list for me last year and we saw how that worked out. I know they have an all timer at tight end but their most proven NFL receiver going into last year was MVS. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think they are the only one with less proven production at the NFL level than the Bills. Chargers 32. Bills 31. New England 30. 

 

What I will say is the Chiefs would have been 32 on this list for me last year and we saw how that worked out. I know they have an all timer at tight end but their most proven NFL receiver going into last year was MVS. 

Chiefs have Kelce and Reid

We have Kincaid and Brady

 

Only in one of those situations is it acceptable to have league worst wideouts and expect good things

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Chiefs have Kelce and Reid

We have Kincaid and Brady

 

Only in one of those situations is it acceptable to have league worst wideouts and expect good things

 

I wasn't making the argument that it is the same to be clear. But I do think in the interests of balance worth pointing out. I think the key for them was they had their best defense of the Reid era last year. We probably have a defense that is worse than before as well. 

 

And I definitely have not argued the Bills receiving corps is acceptable. I have been arguing for the last two years it wasn't when we had Diggs and Gabe. It definitely isn't now when it is Curtis Samuel and a rookie.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

We just drafted a guy who is a more athletic and more physical DeAndre Hopkins.  It’s like if Brandon Marshall and Hopkins had a baby it would be Coleman.

If we bring back signatures this is mine.

How lucky for us that nobody wanted a more physical DeAndre Hopkins in the 1st round. 

[HappyDays]

14 hours ago, davefan66 said:

Davis cost us with his drops last year.  Love the guy, but was time to move on.

 

Diggs is addition by subtraction.

 

On the field there is no such thing as addition by subtraction. As someone that was happy to trade Diggs and let Davis walk, the team on the field unquestionably became WORSE the moment that they were off the roster. Just because moving on from a player is the right decision, doesn't mean you can leave a blank space next to their position on the roster and expect to improve. That doesn't make any sense at all. As of right now we have a blank space next to outside WR #2. That is undeniable.

 

14 hours ago, davefan66 said:

And don’t forget Justin Shorter.

 

Why?? He was a UDFA prospect that we took after trading down in the 5th round because our draftable player board was completely wiped out. I will absolutely forget him. He isn't somebody that enters into the conversation at all. He's somebody that if he makes any kind of real impact on the team it will be a huge shock and a wonderful bit of fortune. You might as well mention Bryan Thompson, Tyrell Shavers, etc. What are we doing here?

 

Edited April 29 by HappyDays

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

One, I was high on him coming into the draft and you can see that in my posting history.  So this isn’t me “wanting” to be happy with the pick, it’s me being happy with the pick because I spent a lot of time on the WRs this year, including talking to people I trust.  
 

Everyone is going to have different opinions, but all the whining (not saying you) and labeling the kid as a bust or capping his potential by people around here who know nothing about him or that getting separation and open has very little to do with 40 times is as over the top as it was on Josh Allen, Bernard, Milano, etc.  

 

Let the kid play.  He’s gonna prove a lot of people wrong around here and I’m very confident about that personally.   

 

Receipts: what was your take on Josh Allen, Matt Milano, and Terrel Bernard?

[HappyDays]

12 hours ago, transient said:

The Chiefs did a similar thing to Mahomes’ WR corp the last 2 seasons… was that inexcusable?

 

Yes! Just ask Chiefs fans. Their WR corps was in fact really bad last year and it directly led to them having the worst passing metrics of Mahomes' career, and having to play on the road in the playoffs for the first time in Mahomes' career. Do you think their bad WR corps was not a problem for the team? Because that defies the entire national conversation around them right up until they won the Super Bowl.

 

The Chiefs were shut out in the 2nd half of the AFCCG and the 1st half of the Super Bowl. Is that what you want us to aspire to? Do you think our McDermott-led defense with Ed Oliver where they have Chris Jones would carry us to a Super Bowl win under those circumstances?

 

By the way the Chiefs had the GOAT pass catching TE in that offense and possibly the GOAT offensive coach calling that offense, and it still was just barely enough to overcome a bad WR room. Do you think we have anything close to that caliber of favorable conditions?

 

This is a lazy talking point and I see it repeated over and over and over again. Our organization is nothing like the Chiefs from top to bottom. The only similarity between us is that we both have freaky QBs that can do things the league's never seen before. We can't build the kind of offense that they have and expect to win, or even participate in, a Super Bowl.

 

Edited April 29 by HappyDays

[Beck Water]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

On the field there is no such thing as addition by subtraction. As someone that was happy to trade Diggs and let Davis walk, the team on the field unquestionably became WORSE the moment that they were off the roster. Just because moving on from a player is the right decision, doesn't mean you can leave a blank space next to their position on the roster and expect to improve. That doesn't make any sense at all. As of right now we have a blank space next to outside WR #2. That is undeniable.

 

 

Why?? He was a UDFA prospect that we took after trading down multiple times in the 5th round because our draftable player board was completely wiped out. I will absolutely forget him. He isn't somebody that enters into the conversation at all. He's somebody that if he makes any kind of real impact on the team it will be a huge shock and a wonderful bit of fortune. You might as well mention Bryan Thompson, Tyrell Shavers, etc. What are we doing here?

 

 

Happy, I Get It.  You're Super Extra Salty right now at what the Bills have done. I'm not happy myself, but I do think some perspective is needed.  You're letting it warp your assessments here.  I'm not saying remember Shorter or count on Shorter, but Zierlein had him as a 5th round WR, whom we drafted with Pick 15 in the 5th round.  
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/justin-shorter/32005348-4f65-1252-2fb4-216da3af656d.  To me, he's a guy who was the top WR prospect in the country coming out of HS and with 2 different programs, couldn't quite make it work at the collegiate level.  AND, he's struggled with hammy injuries, same as what put him on IR all last season.

 

I think the Bills believe Coleman is their #2, and their #1 is a combo of Shakir and Samuel - don't forget they did make that addition.  Whether that's tenable or not, Time Will Tell.

I do think that the Bills were looking at the guys they have as developing WR when they were getting into the 5th round of this year's draft, and said "no one we like better than the guys stashed at home".  That's not saying the guys we had stashed have a very good chance of contributing, but the same is true of a WR drafted this year in the 5th round or later.

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

And I definitely have not argued the Bills receiving corps is acceptable. I have been arguing for the last two years it wasn't when we had Diggs and Gabe. It definitely isn't now when it is Curtis Samuel and a rookie.

 

I don't disagree with this assessment.

 

What I ponder is: what exactly were the Bills supposed to do about it, given where they started the offseason?

 

As you point out, even with some resources expended on lower-tier FA signings, a late 2nd round and a late 3rd round draft pick, it's possible our D won't be as good this season. So were we supposed to use no resources on it, 100% on offense, and have the D just totally blow?  That's not likely a recipe for playoffs or playoff success either. 

 

More, we all know even a top of the 1st round pick has only about a 40-50% hit rate.  So if we mortgage the rest of this year's draft class and next year's to get there, what alternatives does that leave us?

 

That's really what I want to hear from people on Team Unacceptable WR Room: what would be their plan to fix it?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't disagree with this assessment.

 

What I ponder is: what exactly were the Bills supposed to do about it, given where they started the offseason?

 

As you point out, even with some resources expended on lower-tier FA signings, a late 2nd round and a late 3rd round draft pick, it's possible our D won't be as good this season. So were we supposed to use no resources on it, 100% on offense, and have the D just totally blow?  That's not likely a recipe for playoffs or playoff success either. 

 

More, we all know even a top of the 1st round pick has only about a 40-50% hit rate.  So if we mortgage the rest of this year's draft class and next year's to get there, what alternatives does that leave us?

 

That's really what I want to hear from people on Team Unacceptable WR Room: what would be their plan to fix it?

People have been talking about our lack of investment in wr for several years now 

 

The plan would have been a meaningful draft and FA strategy starting exactly when it became apparent Allen was the guy

[Beck Water]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

People have been talking about our lack of investment in wr for several years now 

 

The plan would have been a meaningful draft and FA strategy starting exactly when it became apparent Allen was the guy

 

What would that look like to you?

[HappyDays]

15 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Matt Harmon is THE guy when it comes to WR analysis. I posted his video on Coleman earlier. There were LOTS of people that thought he was polarizing. That’s not an opinion. People talking about his 40 time are not people that thought it was controversial. People talking about his lack of separation are the ones that had an issue. 
 

I don’t care if he’s a 4.5 guy or a 4.6 guy. I care that this is what his route tree looks like:

 

 

 

You're doing heroic work in this thread Kirby, but as someone that really liked the Coleman pick I have to push back on this. A lot of these Coleman discussions reminds me of the Josh Allen conversation where people posted all sorts of metrics that made it look like it was impossible he would ever turn out to be a good QB. Leading one writer to say the Bills would have to "out smart math itself" for the Josh Allen experiment to work. Take it from me - I was on the wrong side of that conversation and I was embarrassingly vocal about it!

 

Separation matters but it is a means to an end, and that end is leverage. That's a WR's job on every pass play in the NFL. Create leverage to open up a throwing window. Pure separation is not the only way to create leverage. Guys like Brandon Marshall, DeAndre Hopkins, etc. create leverage in other ways. Hopkins had zero separation on the Hail Murrary. As a counterexample, Diggs got separation against a small corner in the Jacksonville game, and when the ball arrived he still managed to lose the leverage battle and let the ball be ripped away as an interception.

 

Leverage is where I think Coleman is going to win at the NFL level. He's going to physically dominate CBs through his route, box them out at the top of his route, and control the catch space in the air. It might not look as nifty as Diggs in his prime leaving Marshon Lattimore grabbing at air, but it's an equally valid means of producing in the NFL, and arguably a more reliable means of producing when you get deep into the playoffs and officials let DBs get away with murder. And of course he has excellent YAC skills which makes the total package a lot more appealing.

 

My other issue with Matt Harmon's method is it is an entirely historical record. But you don't draft players based on history. You draft based on projection. Bringing things full circle to the Josh Allen comparison, that is where everyone missed on him. They didn't correctly plot out his trajectory based on his elite physical traits, his entirely fixable flaws, his hunger to be great, and his alpha mentality on the field. So this time around I'm choosing to be on the other side of the discussion. I believe Coleman also has elite physical traits, fixable flaws, a hunger to be great, and an alpha mentality on the field. I think he's a physical stud that gets to catch passes from another physical stud and I'm just betting that that combination will eventually figure itself out.

 

Edited April 29 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

What would that look like to you?

Prior to this season the Bills, in Allen's entire tenure, had never drafted a WR before the fourth round.

 

So to start I wouldn't have done that

[Alphadawg7]

48 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Receipts: what was your take on Josh Allen, Matt Milano, and Terrel Bernard?

Josh Allen:  Thats who I wanted and you can check all my posting before, during and after the draft.  I hated Rosen, argued with people all leading up to the draft that he didn’t have what it takes and was gonna be a bust.  I also warned everyone about Darnold and while I wouldn’t have hated Darnold, he was a terrible decision maker at USC and I thought he was a big risk and I preferred both Allen and Lamar.  Baker was my top guy all college season, and once it was clear he played his way into top pick consideration I turned my attention to Allen and Lamar.  Was down on Allen early in offseason leading up to combine, but he changed my mind post combine.  And Lamar was my next guy, even started a thread titled “My case for Lamar” in a scenario of staying put and not trade up.

 

Matt Milano - Honestly, I missed the later parts of that draft.  Didn’t know a lot about him, and didn’t have a strong opinion one way or another initially.  But he quickly became someone I was impressed with once he was here.

 

Terrell Bernard - I wasnt as familiar with him as I am say I feel I am with Coleman, but I was pro the pick and defended it in the 18 page draft thread and Beanes decision to take him.  Even called Kiper an idiot for him hating the pick.  I really liked the potential of Bernard with his instincts and ability to cover TE as well and trusted Beane knew what he was doing given the success we had with another undersized LB in Milano.  When he was set to start though after Edmunds left, I did have concerns if his frame could hold up to a full season of the physicality of playing LB. And honestly, that is still a concern that hasn’t really been eliminated despite his great play given he got hurt in his first season starting.  I was actually glad to see us take another LB this year because with Milano and Bernard being smaller, injury risks are a thing and not having either of them against KC was a death nail as KC just attacked and exploited the glaring hole at LB all game.   So I’m all for more depth there with the guy we took and guys like Dorian last year who I also liked.