Did we do enough at wide receiver?

[harmonkillebrew]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:43 PM, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Shakir replaces diggs ?

people are seriously delusional 

[TurfToeJam]

Beane will pick up his vet wr or even two likely on roster cut down day for cheap.  There will be vet wrs available eventually do to the large amount of rookies wrs this year.  Will have to likely wait till cut down day.  Probably be one year vet min type signings.  

 

Not saying I like this.  Rather what I'm guessing will happen 

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

Revisiting this issue a few days later, it still comes down to this for me:

Being one injury away from Mack Hollins or Justin Shorter playing significant starting snaps on offense is just not ideal in any way, shape, or form. Depending on a 20 year old rookie to be productive out of the gate and to be one of your starting three WRs when you play as much 11 personnel as the Bills do is not ideal in any way, shape, or form.

They HAVE to get one more legit guy for this WR room. Have to. It's impossible for me to believe that Brandon Beane really thinks a Shaver/Shorter/Hamler/Isabella/Cephus is the answer to this problem. 

If so, it's hard for me to conclude anything other than that this WR corps has the potential to be the worst since 2019. 

I have my fingers tightly crossed that there will be a post June 1st move of some kind.

I've been believing/hoping the veteran trade was the plan all along - and was rooting against our taking Franklin late because it would have ended the hope.

 

My low end of expectations would be the OBJ/M Thomas FA route.  Slightly above, but something I would have be fine with, is DHop.

 

I think Beane may have bigger plans (although he is uncharacteristically saying the exact opposite).  Give it a few months and he can claim he couldn't pass it up.  He now has draft capital in the extra 2nd and 4th next year.   They would have access to the June 1st Tre money and say Josh has helped out with a restructure.  I don't think it could get them up to J Jeff but still a good WR - possibly an Aiyuk/Deebo/C Godwin/DJ Moore/D Metcalf range.

[VW82]

22 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I will always go on record as saying it was imperative to double dip in last week's wr rich draft. We won't see that deep of a wr draft for awhile. And all of this is amplified by losing Diggs/Davis.  We had realistic bites at the apple with Thomas, Mitchell, Leggette,  McConkey,  Franklin & Walker.  I'll give Keon the benefit of the doubt and completely ignore his 40.  I've been told by half this board that 40 times are irrelevant. But we still needed that 2nd rookie wr. If for no other reason as insurance if Hollins, Hamler, Shorter, Shavers, Cephus flame out. We all saw how useless Sherfield and Harty were last season. 

You'd have a better case if the idea was re-stocking the pipeline with WR prospects for for 25 and 26. Rookie WRs are notoriously unrelaible. Claiming we needed to take a second one because we lost Diggs and Davis doesn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps losing those guys means we need to look for a trade or post June 1st signing. Perhaps we should've better anticipated Diggs blowing up our plans post FA in the first place. These aren't problems a 2nd or 3rd round rookie is going to fix. It's unrealistic that Coleman will fix them in year one.

 

We have a good amount of receiving talent in our TEs and backs. That's where we're going to look if guys flame out (and maybe even if they don't).  

[Logic]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I've been believing/hoping the veteran trade was the plan all along - and was rooting against our taking Franklin late because it would have ended the hope.

 

My low end of expectations would be the OBJ/M Thomas FA route.  Slightly above, but something I would have be fine with, is DHop.

 

I think Beane may have bigger plans (although he is uncharacteristically saying the exact opposite).  Give it a few months and he can claim he couldn't pass it up.  He now has draft capital in the extra 2nd and 4th next year.   They would have access to the June 1st Tre money and say Josh has helped out with a restructure.  I don't think it could get them up to J Jeff but still a good WR - possibly an Aiyuk/Deebo/C Godwin/DJ Moore/D Metcalf range.

Of course I hope you're right, but Beane just the other day said that the money that's gonna open up post June 1st will mostly be needed for signing draft picks, in-season replacement costs, etc, and tried his very hardest to throw cold water on the notion of any kind of big time WR move.

Now...talk is cheap, and we'll see if his actions back it up. Personally, I'm expecting nothing more than the signing of an OBJ or Tyler Boyd type at BEST.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

The Chiefs didn’t do enough at WR and won 2 Super Bowls. Then they’re like we can’t do that again we better add some better WR’s.

 

That said, if JuJu Smith gets released would he be an option? Actually when JuJu Smith gets released.

 

 

Edited April 30 by Buffalo_Stampede

[GASabresIUFan]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

Revisiting this issue a few days later, it still comes down to this for me:

Being one injury away from Mack Hollins or Justin Shorter playing significant starting snaps on offense is just not ideal in any way, shape, or form. Depending on a 20 year old rookie to be productive out of the gate and to be one of your starting three WRs when you play as much 11 personnel as the Bills do is not ideal in any way, shape, or form.

They HAVE to get one more legit guy for this WR room. Have to. It's impossible for me to believe that Brandon Beane really thinks a Shaver/Shorter/Hamler/Isabella/Cephus is the answer to this problem. 

If so, it's hard for me to conclude anything other than that this WR corps has the potential to be the worst since 2019. 

I have my fingers tightly crossed that there will be a post June 1st move of some kind.

Where is this mythical receiver going to play and how much is he going to cost?  Beane didn’t pay Samuel $8 mill to sit him.  Shakir and Kincaid are your top returning players and Beane just drafted Coleman with his top pick.  Those are the Bills top 4 receivers.  I understand you want someone over Hollins in the WR room.  However, how much O PT is the WR4 actually going to get as the 6th passing option (behind Cook) or 7th passing option (behind Cook & Knox)? 1-2 targets per game max?  Unless someone gets hurt they may not even be active some weeks.  No established player is coming here to fill that role and Beane isn’t going to pay someone else more than Hollins to fill the role.  

Hollins is an experienced vet who did step up and have a good year when someone got hurt.  He is also a special teams ace and will dress every week because of it.  Sorry but he is the WR 4 and is an upgrade on Sherfield.  The battle in camp will be for WR5 between Shorter and NFL vets Isabella, Hamler and Cephus.  I don’t expect the Bills to keep 6 WRs on the active roster.  If I had to guess, Hamler wins the job and works with the rookie CB Hardy as the kick returners.  

 

[Einstein's Dog]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Of course I hope you're right, but Beane just the other day said that the money that's gonna open up post June 1st will mostly be needed for signing draft picks, in-season replacement costs, etc, and tried his very hardest to throw cold water on the notion of any kind of big time WR move.

Now...talk is cheap, and we'll see if his actions back it up. Personally, I'm expecting nothing more than the signing of an OBJ or Tyler Boyd type at BEST.

It is discouraging to hear Beane outright deny the trade idea.  This is far more than his prior vague lawyer talk designed to keep expectations low.

[JBI$111]

Even though I was kind of bummed about the pic because there were other wide receivers that we could have taken that I liked better, I do really like him for what he is, a large receiver with some beast mode in him. I was just hoping that they would also get a really fast vertical threat. As far as all the other pics, I think they did pretty well and certainly filled a lot of needs. It was a pretty diversified draft that we ended up with overall. They had a lot of options though at WR still even in rounds three and four, but instead took rotational type players. I did want them to get a big tall receiver like Coleman assuming they were also going to get a really fast receiver that would make defenses play further back. It would certainly help all the underneath and shorter routes with our tight ends and running backs. However, I'll will be rooting for him obviously because I'm a huge Bill's fan and I'm sure he's going to be great at some point, maybe right away. He is very young still with a lot of room to grow.

[pi2000]

I don't believe they're done adding at WR.     

 

The only true vet with extended experience is Curtis Samuel.  

 

They'll likely add an older vet sometime later in the summer, closer to training camp.    

 

Tyler Boyd, OBJ, Michael Thomas, Julio Jones... guys long in the tooth, but miight come in for a year on the cheap to play with Josh and tutor the youngsters.

[Logic]

25 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I don't believe they're done adding at WR.     

 

The only true vet with extended experience is Curtis Samuel.  

 

They'll likely add an older vet sometime later in the summer, closer to training camp.    

 

Tyler Boyd, OBJ, Michael Thomas, Julio Jones... guys long in the tooth, but miight come in for a year on the cheap to play with Josh and tutor the youngsters.

I think Thomas and Jones are beyond cooked. I doubt either of them are at all superior to Shavers or Shorter at this point.

My money might be on OBJ given their prior interest and his ability to be a mentor of sorts to Coleman. I wouldn't rule out a Zay Jones or Hunter Renfrow, though.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I think Thomas and Jones are beyond cooked. I doubt either of them are at all superior to Shavers or Shorter at this point.

My money might be on OBJ given their prior interest and his ability to be a mentor of sorts to Coleman. I wouldn't rule out a Zay Jones or Hunter Renfrow, though.

I don't really like any of those names, though that's probably the sort of player you're looking at. Still praying there's a super-secret plan to get Aiyuk. Sure wish they could have doubled up and grabbed McConkey, because I think he's the missing piece that would have made the WR room complete with the addition of Coleman.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I feel like the Bills went out and got Allen a WR1 in 2020 and then other teams have gone crazy loading up with WRs for their rookie contract QBs. Getting 2 or 3 highly rated WRs for their young QB.

 

It probably helps but what team has actually won a Super Bowl doing this? I don’t think any team loading up at WR for their young QB has won anything yet. Maybe because it’s a pretty new trend.

[nedboy7]

People are worried about replacing Diggs' yards per game? 

During the last 5 games (winning streak) to end the season he got 87, 25, 26, 49 and 24 yards. 

I am not really worried about that production.  But I would like a solid vet acquisition. 

 

[BillsVet]

41 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I feel like the Bills went out and got Allen a WR1 in 2020 and then other teams have gone crazy loading up with WRs for their rookie contract QBs. Getting 2 or 3 highly rated WRs for their young QB.

 

It probably helps but what team has actually won a Super Bowl doing this? I don’t think any team loading up at WR for their young QB has won anything yet. Maybe because it’s a pretty new trend.

 

Yeah, you've framed the debate around winning when Mahomes has 3 of the last 5.   

 

Making the SB, there's Hurts with AJ Brown and D. Smith.  Cincinnati with Burrow having Chase, Higgins, and Boyd.  Goff in 2019 with R. Woods, Cooks, and Kupp.

 

If you're talking about making a CG, there's Purdy having McCaffrey, D. Samuel, Aiyuk, and Kittle.  Even Buffalo did that with Diggs, J. Brown, and Beasley in 2020.  

 

It's pretty common to put receiving options, UFA or drafted, around a younger QB to accelerate the development and increase chance of offensive success.  Buffalo made sure Josh had better targets in 2019-20, but stopped adding in 2021-22.    

 

Edited May 1 by BillsVet

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

A WR that would just explode in this Offense is Devonte Adams. I would trade a 2nd rd pick for him and some. He has about 3 very good years left and with his play style maybe more.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

48 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Yeah, you've framed the debate around winning when Mahomes has 3 of the last 5.   

 

Making the SB, there's Hurts with AJ Brown and D. Smith.  Cincinnati with Burrow having Chase, Higgins, and Boyd.  Goff in 2019 with R. Woods, Cooks, and Kupp.

 

If you're talking about making a CG, there's Purdy having McCaffrey, D. Samuel, Aiyuk, and Kittle.  Even Buffalo did that with Diggs, J. Brown, and Beasley in 2020.  

 

It's pretty common to put receiving options, UFA or drafted, around a younger QB to accelerate the development and increase chance of offensive success.  Buffalo made sure Josh had better targets in 2019-20, but stopped adding in 2021-22.    

 

Hear me out. I think it’s how you develop a QB. I think it’s a proven form of development. But I do believe once a QB reaches a certain level of development they should elevate WRs around them. I think that’s the Bills approach, and I believe it was NE’s and KC’s approach. KC has never loaded up at WR. They hit on a mid round pick in Hill and drafted a bunch of 2nd round prospects.

 

You definitely need that dependable target that always wins, no matter the coverage. Brady had Gronk and Mahomes has Kelce. They just happened to be TE’s. 

 

I don’t think it needs to be a WR. I was watching Sal and Matt Bove and Bove looked sick to his stomach when Sal brought up Kincaid as a possible WR1 or number 1 target.

 

Why is that such a bad idea for many people? Kincaid is a man coverage beater, zone coverage beater, contested catch guy, and a rac guy. He’s coming off a 73 catch rookie season and was a 1st round pick.

If Kincaid was a 1st round WR instead of a TE coming off a 73 catch rookie season a lot of opinions would change. Why isn’t Kincaid, Coleman, Samuel, and Shakir good enough receiving weapons? On paper they have a lot to prove, but I can confidently project Kincaid around 90-100 catches next year. Kincaid has so much more ability than what we saw last year.

 

I would love to have a proven WR1 and WR2, but I think there’s talent and with Josh Allen these players can live up to it.

 

 

 

Edited May 1 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Putin]

On 4/29/2024 at 6:14 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

I will always go on record as saying it was imperative to double dip in last week's wr rich draft. We won't see that deep of a wr draft for awhile. And all of this is amplified by losing Diggs/Davis.  We had realistic bites at the apple with Thomas, Mitchell, Leggette,  McConkey,  Franklin & Walker.  I'll give Keon the benefit of the doubt and completely ignore his 40.  I've been told by half this board that 40 times are irrelevant. But we still needed that 2nd rookie wr. If for no other reason as insurance if Hollins, Hamler, Shorter, Shavers, Cephus flame out. We all saw how useless Sherfield and Harty were last season. 

Did you also go on record saying that we got the wrong Josh  Because I remember a lot of people on here going on record , 

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Hear me out. I think it’s how you develop a QB. I think it’s a proven form of development. But I do believe once a QB reaches a certain level of development they should elevate WRs around them. I think that’s the Bills approach, and I believe it was NE’s and KC’s approach. KC has never loaded up at WR. They hit on a mid round pick in Hill and drafted a bunch of 2nd round prospects.

 

You definitely need that dependable target that always wins, no matter the coverage. Brady had Gronk and Mahomes has Kelce. They just happened to be TE’s. 

 

I don’t think it needs to be a WR. I was watching Sal and Matt Bove and Bove looked sick to his stomach when Sal brought up Kincaid as a possible WR1 or number 1 target.

 

Why is that such a bad idea for many people? Kincaid is a man coverage beater, zone coverage beater, contested catch guy, and a rac guy. He’s coming off a 73 catch rookie season and was a 1st round pick.

If Kincaid was a 1st round WR instead of a TE coming off a 73 catch rookie season a lot of opinions would change. Why isn’t Kincaid, Coleman, Samuel, and Shakir good enough receiving weapons? On paper they have a lot to prove, but I can confidently project Kincaid around 90-100 catches next year. Kincaid has so much more ability than what we saw last year.

 

I would love to have a proven WR1 and WR2, but I think there’s talent and with Josh Allen these players can live up to it.

I'm not your wife/GF, so I don't need to hear you out.  

 

The Bills do not seem interested in featuring a high-cost WR anymore for cap reasons.  Because they won't have enough room to pay Josh, a non-rookie contract WR1, and providing all the pieces to McD's defense.    

 

I said around 2021 here that something would have to give eventually with their UFA spending, getting the pieces to the defense McD expects, and paying Josh.

We're at that point now.  

 

You and many others are rationalizing what they've done and manufactured into why it's right.  We're going to find out, but there is no proven deep threat on the roster and having watched this team, the more questions you have entering the season, the slimmer your margin for error is.  Even with a franchise QB.

 

It is a question how a flex TE who averaged 9 yards per catch last year suddenly becomes their deep threat.  And none of Samuel, Shakir, or Hollins are that guy really.  They don't offer the versatility, they don't separate, and their limited to being short to intermediate guys against 

 

Everyone expects these WR's will get production and people will move up to the next position on the depth chart seamlessly.  Big ask for guys who've never been covered by the opponent's top DB's.    

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

I'm not your wife/GF, so I don't need to hear you out.  

 

The Bills do not seem interested in featuring a high-cost WR anymore for cap reasons.  Because they won't have enough room to pay Josh, a non-rookie contract WR1, and providing all the pieces to McD's defense.    

 

I said around 2021 here that something would have to give eventually with their UFA spending, getting the pieces to the defense McD expects, and paying Josh.

We're at that point now.  

 

You and many others are rationalizing what they've done and manufactured into why it's right.  We're going to find out, but there is no proven deep threat on the roster and having watched this team, the more questions you have entering the season, the slimmer your margin for error is.  Even with a franchise QB.

 

It is a question how a flex TE who averaged 9 yards per catch last year suddenly becomes their deep threat.  And none of Samuel, Shakir, or Hollins are that guy really.  They don't offer the versatility, they don't separate, and their limited to being short to intermediate guys against 

 

Everyone expects these WR's will get production and people will move up to the next position on the depth chart seamlessly.  Big ask for guys who've never been covered by the opponent's top DB's.    

 

You’re worried about a deep threat? We’ve been calling for a deep threat since 2021. That’s nothing new. It’s also not a strength of Josh Allen. I’ve been hoping we added a legit speed guy for years. That's just not a priority it seems, but not a new problem.  Gabe Davis has been our deep threat.

 

But teams play us like we have a deep threat due to Allen at any moment could launch it to anyone on the field. We get 2 high looks as much as anyone already, don’t even need the true deep threat.

 

No one is rationalizing. I was pretty vocal about trading Diggs this year. I also was the first to mention Curtis Samuel as a target. What I didn’t expect was the Bills to lack a sense of urgency in finding the next Diggs. Trading back and taking just 1 WR wasn’t a goal of mine. So the outcome is not what I expected.

 

As for Kincaid he has a lot more ability than how they used him most of the year. We started seeing it late last year and into the playoffs. His depth of target increased. He’s going to explode next year.

 

There are major questions on what Samuel and Shakir can handle. It looks like we’ll find out. Both will be getting a major opportunity they haven’t had. One runs 4.31 and the other 4.43. So they are faster than WRs we’ve had. Coleman also a complete unknown. As of now we’re going to find out pretty early what he’s capable of.