Speed: I do the math here

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If you need to be a 'scientist' to understand the difference between a 4.2 guy vs 4.6 you probably want to stick to doing simple math

I just offered actual numbers.  You can take what you’d like from them.

[mrags]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Yes, he’s fast.  No one is arguing that.  What if he ran another and it was 4.3.  Would that change your opinion?

What if he ran a 4.19?

[oldmanfan]

Just now, mrags said:

What if he ran a 4.19?

Then that would be lower than 4.2, assuming the timing device you’re using has that level of precision.

[mrags]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I just offered actual numbers.  You can take what you’d like from them.

Or @GoBills808 you could look at the pic I posted and see that it’s about 10 ft of a difference in a 40 yard span. That’s like 10% faster. I’d say it’s pretty significant 

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Then that would be lower than 4.2, assuming the timing device you’re using has that level of precision.

Only use FAT time to be sure 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I just offered actual numbers.  You can take what you’d like from them.

You didn't need to

 

Vast majority of football fans understand the difference between a guy who runs a 4.2 vs a 4.6

[RyanC883]

56 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

I see a lot of numbers trying to justify him being slow. It is what it is. He's slow. Hopefully he can make it up elsewhere (jump balls, catch radius, etc).

 

the issue for me is not speed or lack of it, it is that he can’t separate and was not as productive in most games for what you want your top WR pick to be

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

You didn't need to

 

Vast majority of football fans understand the difference between a guy who runs a 4.2 vs a 4.6

Just wanted to put numbers to it.  So it’s several yards over a 40 yard sprint.  The question I’d like to get data on is how often a dead sprint against another guy happens in an NFL game.

[PBF81]

54 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

There is zero correlation between 40 time and how good a WR. 

 

That's funny, since the second half of last season the primary gripe of the forum as a whole has been the lack of a speedster WR that "can separate." 

 

Hmm...

 

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Just wanted to put numbers to it.  So it’s several yards over a 40 yard sprint.  The question I’d like to get data on is how often a dead sprint against another guy happens in an NFL game.

I would guess if you are a 4.6 guy it's rarely

 

Likewise if you are a 4.2 guy it's more often

[VW82]

As others have said, it's not so much his speed or 40 time or gauntlet time or...it's the fact that when you watch him at FSU or MSU he doesn't seem to be getting open.

Edited April 27 by VW82

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, VW82 said:

As others have said, it's not so much his speed or 40 time or gauntlet time or...it's the fact that when you watch him at FSU or MSU he doesn't seem to be getting open.

Depends what you choose to watch

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

“This is why Marcel St. Jacques wrote an article for espn.com indicating the 40 time isn’t very useful anymore.”

 

People have been saying this for years but they keep doing it.

I guess it’s useful if you run a lot of 40 yard go routes and the QB has time to throw it.

 

[Billl]

Coleman’s 10 yard split was .05 seconds slower than Worthy’s.  That’s half a yard difference.  It doesn’t take a 40 yard go route for that difference in speed to manifest itself into something important.

[K D]

12 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

the issue for me is not speed or lack of it, it is that he can’t separate and was not as productive in most games for what you want your top WR pick to be

I think that's the mistake people are making. He's not a top WR. He will be our #3 guy this year or #4 if you count Kincaid. I think his ceiling is a better Gabe Davis hopefully by next year. We still need a #1 guy

[PrimeTime101]

Anyone know what Marvin Harrison JR combine was? oh he skipped it?  Could he of been worried that he would have a bad 40 yard and 10 split like others did in the combine? Like Coleman?  I am pretty sure Coleman ran a much better on pro day... 

 

You know what else matters?

 

How about this? 

 

https://www.on3.com/pro/news/keon-coleman-runs-insane-speed-during-gauntlet-drill-fastest-of-group/

 

Thats right.. Fastest in group... What do teams do now a days? Bump and run 2 deep zone yes?  Bump into Coleman and find out what happens... 

THIS matters... The fact that he is solid (NOT GREAT) but Solid at rout running. 

The fact that not every rout is a post...

 

Now I was not nor am high on Coleman.. But he's a Buffalo Bill now... When you run the 40 bad in combine but good in pro day.. what does that tell you?

 

Another thing... No more hip tackling... Who do you think that helps? The Fast guy or the big strong guy?  Id argue both... 

 

Again... Not my Fav. pick.. but its time to get over it...

[strive_for_five_guy]

41 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes, he’s fast.  No one is arguing that.  What if he ran another and it was 4.3.  Would that change your opinion?

Best out of 7

[oldmanfan]

21 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

I think that's the mistake people are making. He's not a top WR. He will be our #3 guy this year or #4 if you count Kincaid. I think his ceiling is a better Gabe Davis hopefully by next year. We still need a #1 guy

Why?  If Kincaid is the primary guy why is a #1 essential?  It seems Brady wants to mix run and pass and spread the ball around in the pass game.  Not that I’d turn down say a Chase or Jefferson but is it essential?  
 

For that matter how do we define a #1 WR?  Amount of double teams?  What metric?

25 minutes ago, Billl said:

Coleman’s 10 yard split was .05 seconds slower than Worthy’s.  That’s half a yard difference.  It doesn’t take a 40 yard go route for that difference in speed to manifest itself into something important.

Someone referred above to Coleman’s top speed being second of all tested?  Would that imply he catches up?

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Best out of 7

fair enough

[Steve Billieve]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

There is zero correlation between 40 time and how good a WR. If he can run great routes, he can get open. We have other guys who can fly down the field. We didn’t have anyone who can out BAMF dudes for the ball. 

My 40 time begs to disagree

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, PayDaBill$ said:

A lot of other factors come into play, running 40 yds in a straight line isn’t quite the same with gear on, running routes and tracking the ball. It’s just another athleticism metric.

from an nbcsprts.com article in March.

 

 

“Timing of players at the Scouting Combine isn’t just done with stopwatches. It’s also done with chips worn by every player, that tracking their speed during every drill. And last year, that player tracking data showed off the talents of Puka Nacua, a relatively unknown receiver out of BYU who went from fifth-round pick of the Rams to the most productive rookie receiver in NFL history.

Nacua wasn’t great in the traditional tests of athleticism that the NFL has relied on for decades, recording a 4.57-second 40-yard dash. But the player tracking data showed he was the fastest receiver at last year’s Combine in running through the gauntlet drill, in which a receiver runs across the field and catches seven passes in rapid succession. According to the NFL’s Next Gen Stats, Nacua reached the fastest speed of any wide receiver during last year’s gauntlet drill at 20.06 mph. That tipped teams off that Nacua plays faster than he runs, something that Nacua proved in his rookie year.

This year, Florida State wide receiver Keon Coleman was similar to Nacua: Coleman ran a disappointing 40 time of 4.61 seconds, but he reached the fastest speed in the gauntlet drill, topping out at 20.36 mph — even faster than Nacua last year. Coleman also reached the second-fastest speed of any wide receiver in his group while running a go route, reaching 21.71 mph.

The player tracking data is new, and there’s not a long history of being able to study how well it correlates to NFL success. But it may prove that players who show elite speed during the on-field drills that more closely approximate what they do on a football field prove to be better players than the ones who run the fastest in a straight line for 40 yards.

In hindsight, teams wish they had paid more attention to Nacua’s player tracking data than to his stopwatch time. Coleman will hope teams remember that during this year’s draft.”

He’s not SLOW …. He has athleticism & speed in the context of the game.

100% correct.  Look at the film, the guy is very "explosive" on the field.  I have long thought the 40 is a dumb test.