oldmanfan Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 12 minutes ago, mrags said: Here. This is much easier to show the difference of speed. Almost the exact times we’re talking about from a 4.6 to a 4.3. It’s actually a lot. 3yrds is almost 10ft. That’s a lot when your talking about separation on a CB. I checked my math twice thanks. Quote
mrags Posted April 27 Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said: A lot goes into that, no? Seeing the open man is something of a challenge for farmer Josh sometimes I've seen it live, personally. I mean I think I’ve only missed 8 games Josh live at home in his career. Pretty sure I’ve seen him too. I believe he underthrows some guys sometimes. Maybe because he’s holding back a bit thinking he’s going to overthrow his WR because he doesn’t believe they have the speed to jist go get it. 1 Quote
oldmanfan Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 6 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said: That’s true, but why do you suppose he didn’t run the 40 again at his pro day? I think it’s safe to assume that he knew his 4.61 was about the best he can do. Similarly, he did not do the 3-cone and 20 yard shuttle agility drills at all - very likely he knew these would not be his strengths. That doesn’t mean that he can’t succeed in the league, but it might well cap his ceiling. Someone indicated above he had the best gauntlet drill time and second best top speed. Again that’s an N of 1. But it suggests speed in other testing modalities. 2 minutes ago, mrags said: I mean I think I’ve only missed 8 games Josh live at home in his career. Pretty sure I’ve seen him too. I believe he underthrows some guys sometimes. Maybe because he’s holding back a bit thinking he’s going to overthrow his WR because he doesn’t believe they have the speed to jist go get it. How many total passes of over 40 yards were thrown by Josh last year? Or in the league? I can’t find that data. 1 Quote
mrags Posted April 27 Posted April 27 4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I checked my math twice thanks. Yeah I’m sure you did. That’s why I provided a picture for your eyes to actually see the difference. And not imagine things in your head. fwiw, I bet I found that pic, condensed it so that I could post to this site, and replied to you. As well as pissed 14 other people off in 6 other threads in the time it took you to do all that math and post the original OP 1 1 Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted April 27 Posted April 27 34 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said: I see a lot of numbers trying to justify him being slow. It is what it is. He's slow. Hopefully he can make it up elsewhere (jump balls, catch radius, etc). 4.51 isn’t slow. Thats what he ran on his pro day. Quote
mrags Posted April 27 Posted April 27 3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Someone indicated above he had the best gauntlet drill time and second best top speed. Again that’s an N of 1. But it suggests speed in other testing modalities. How many total passes of over 40 yards were thrown by Josh last year? Or in the league? I can’t find that data. I don’t know. Probably not a lot because his coach doesn’t believe in a verticle passing game and his WRs were slow AF 1 Quote
OldTimer1960 Posted April 27 Posted April 27 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: Someone indicated above he had the best gauntlet drill time and second best top speed. Again that’s an N of 1. But it suggests speed in other testing modalities. How many total passes of over 40 yards were thrown by Josh last year? Or in the league? I can’t find that data. I’m not really arguing against your original point, just wanted to add that quickness, route running skill and acceleration are as important or more so as speed. The gauntlet speed point is questionable in my mind - the gauntlet is not a speed competition. Players aren’t competing to see who can run it fastest. It IS encouraging that he could ripen it fast and show good hands. Quote
K D Posted April 27 Posted April 27 I think a lot of people are getting upset that people don't like how slow he is. It's fine, he was successful while being slow in college and he will probably be an ok player in the NFL. The point is he had a glaring weakness vs others still available at the time he was drafted. If he was drafted in round 3 this wouldn't even be a discussion, we would be happy with the pick (most of us). We passed on Worthy who has speed you need to plan for, McConkey who has the speed AND route running, Leggette who has the speed AND size, and AD Mitchell who has every single tool available and might have a bad attitude but please tell me which superstar WR is pleasant. Coleman might end up being an upgrade over Gabe but there were other options available so it's a head scratcher. 2 1 Quote
ghostwriter Posted April 27 Posted April 27 18 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: It doesn't work like that, Dr. Einstein. You are suggesting 40 times are straight up irrelevant in NFL football. They are not. Speed isn’t the only means to getting open. 1 Quote
K D Posted April 27 Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: 4.51 isn’t slow. Thats what he ran on his pro day. Supposedly hand timed by a scout. I trust the combine electronic system which has all players on a level playing field. 1 1 Quote
oldmanfan Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 5 minutes ago, mrags said: Yeah I’m sure you did. That’s why I provided a picture for your eyes to actually see the difference. And not imagine things in your head. fwiw, I bet I found that pic, condensed it so that I could post to this site, and replied to you. As well as pissed 14 other people off in 6 other threads in the time it took you to do all that math and post the original OP God forbid we look at actual data 4 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said: I’m not really arguing against your original point, just wanted to add that quickness, route running skill and acceleration are as important or more so as speed. The gauntlet speed point is questionable in my mind - the gauntlet is not a speed competition. Players aren’t competing to see who can run it fastest. It IS encouraging that he could ripen it fast and show good hands. I agree with your points Quote
mrags Posted April 27 Posted April 27 Just now, oldmanfan said: God forbid we look at actual data Or see it with our own eyes you said it yourself. 3 yards. And then said it didnt sound like it was that much. That’s almost 10 freaking feet. That’s 1.5 people you’re talking about. I’d say that’s a huge difference 2 Quote
strive_for_five_guy Posted April 27 Posted April 27 (edited) 40 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Another thing scientists (I am one) is you never base conclusions on a sample size of 1. One 40 yard run at the combine is not enough data to conclude anything. Agreed. Xavier Worthy just got lucky. It’s still inconclusive whether he is faster than me 😃 Edited April 27 by strive_for_five_guy 1 Quote
GoBills808 Posted April 27 Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, mrags said: Or see it with our own eyes you said it yourself. 3 yards. And then said it didnt sound like it was that much. That’s almost 10 freaking feet. That’s 1.5 people you’re talking about. I’d say that’s a huge difference If you need to be a 'scientist' to understand the difference between a 4.2 guy vs 4.6 you probably want to stick to doing simple math Quote
kitchen sink Posted April 27 Posted April 27 https://www.on3.com/pro/news/keon-coleman-runs-insane-speed-during-gauntlet-drill-fastest-of-group/ 1 1 1 Quote
K D Posted April 27 Posted April 27 1 minute ago, kitchen sink said: https://www.on3.com/pro/news/keon-coleman-runs-insane-speed-during-gauntlet-drill-fastest-of-group/ He sprinted on a drill when nobody else did. You aren't supposed to do that. If you watch the combine you can clearly see him run out of bounds when you are supposed to stay in and show you can tip toe down the sidelines. 3 Quote
oldmanfan Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, mrags said: Or see it with our own eyes you said it yourself. 3 yards. And then said it didnt sound like it was that much. That’s almost 10 freaking feet. That’s 1.5 people you’re talking about. I’d say that’s a huge difference Here is a more nuanced take. For the 40 times to be directly relevant on the field both the WR and defender would have to be starting from the same starting point. CBS don’t unless they play press. You also would have to factor in any help from a safety over the top. And so on. I suspect there are relatively few throws in the league in any given year where it is a straight fly pattern on a guy being covered one on one. 1 Quote
mrags Posted April 27 Posted April 27 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: If you need to be a 'scientist' to understand the difference between a 4.2 guy vs 4.6 you probably want to stick to doing simple math Or being a good WR Quote
oldmanfan Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 3 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said: Agreed. Xavier Worthy just got lucky. It’s still inconclusive whether he is faster than me 😃 Yes, he’s fast. No one is arguing that. What if he ran another and it was 4.3. Would that change your opinion? Quote
mrags Posted April 27 Posted April 27 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: Here is a more nuanced take. For the 40 times to be directly relevant on the field both the WR and defender would have to be starting from the same starting point. CBS don’t unless they play press. You also would have to factor in any help from a safety over the top. And so on. I suspect there are relatively few throws in the league in any given year where it is a straight fly pattern on a guy being covered one on one. Cool. Doesn’t take away from the fact that 4.6 is 10+ feet faster than 4.4 in a 40 yard distance. Which means a lot Quote
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