Coleman = Benjamin, Davis = Moss - Beane players

[White Linen]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes that's why I said scouted

 

You also said drafted.  How do you scout early?

 

 

Edited April 28 by White Linen

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

You also said drafted.  How do you scout early?

 

 

I don't know what you mean

 

I was saying he was involved in scouting Benjamin and drafting Coleman 

[White Linen]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know what you mean

 

I was saying he was involved in scouting Benjamin and drafting Coleman 

 

Pretty serious difference, don't you think?  When you're trying to draw a line connecting Beane to Coleman and Benjamin.

[GoBills808]

Just now, White Linen said:

 

Pretty serious difference, don't you think?  When you're trying to draw a line connecting Beane to Coleman and Benjamin.

My point was not to connect them so much as to say I don't necessarily blame the folks who are

[White Linen]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

My point was not to connect them so much as to say I don't necessarily blame the folks who are

 

I get that, I just don't think that helped their cause is all.

[YattaOkasan]

2 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

That's simply not true. We see guys win deep every Sunday who are strong and get the jump ball. By all accounts, Coleman is already a good route runner and there's no doubt he's an explosive athlete. We'll see.

I think the basketball background has to help with body positioning and high pointing through traffic. Wasn’t who I wanted but excited to see what he can do

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

I get that, I just don't think that helped their cause is all.

It's an easy comparison for people myself included who don't watch much college football

 

Obviously open to discussing why that's not the case...but that was not in the cards for the guy I initially responded to😂😂

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Lazy comparisons 

 

 

This.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Speed matters.
it's how you measure it effectively is how it's changed. GPS, 10-yd splits, etc.... Coleman's gauntlet drill speed was impressive.

But everything I've read on him mentions his big body, contested catch, traits. I've not seen much about separation and certainly not speed. So he falls more into the Benjamin, Funchess, Marques Colston, mode.  There are some good players out there with the same skill set. But what's interesting is that Beane really seems to like to draft them, even liked Benjamin so much that he traded a 3rd for him as well (when he got to Buffalo).

 

 

 

Speed does matter. 

 

So does size. And strength. And leaping ability. Smarts. Anyone with half a brain can keep going and going. 

 

Speed is one factor. It matters. But again, so do many many other things. 

 

If he was running a 4.8, that'd pretty much rule him out. But he runs 4.5. And there are plenty of excellent WRs in that range, particularly when they're big and strong, guys like Anquan Boldin, Jerry Rice, Brandon Marshall, Hines Ward ... it just goes on and on. Puca Nacua and Cooper Kupp, if you want recent examples.

 

Nobody wants to hear the simple truth on this ... we have to wait and see. He might be very very good. He might not. But it's just a fact that his speed absolutely does not mean he won't be successful or even very very successful.

 

Edited April 28 by Thurman#1

[HappyDays]

10 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Clearly some consistent pursuit of the big body possession receiver for instance, right?

 

Wouldn't call Coleman a possession WR. He doesn't go down on first contact after the catch. He's got Deebo qualities with the ball in his hands. He offers more of a total package than Benjamin, Funchess, or the other comparison I've seen thrown around Mike Williams.

[Alphadawg7]

11 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Beane has a real tendency for a certain type of player.

Ray Davis is a  Zack Moss clone

Coleman isn't too far off from Kelvin Benjamin and Devin Funchess.

 

None of those guys panned out.

 

Seems Beane consistently under values speed in skill players.  I was hoping we'd come out of this draft faster and more explosive on O, but instead it's more of the usual.

 

Coleman would have been a decent replacement for Gabe. Similar skill set. Is Samuel supposed to be the Diggs replacement? Hard to see us being better on offense. 

 

Or defense for that matter. They don't seem to have a vision or plan for getting better than the Chiefs. Feels like a reset year.

All you did with this thread and tell everyone you literally know nothing about Coleman and Davis.  If you did you wouldn’t have started it with these inaccurate and lazy comparisons.

 

And I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand…but Beane isn’t trying to bring in Davis 2.0 and Diggs 2.0 so stop trying to say well this guy must be this guys replacement.  Its not at all what they are doing.

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, mrags said:

And we draft a ridiculously slow WR that’s like the clone of Gabe Davis

 

They're nothing alike as prospects. The frame, the play strength, the hands, the YAC, the contested catch ability, the routes they run, pretty much any trait you want to pick you will not find much if any similarity.

 

There are valid concerns about Coleman as a prospect, but he was considered a late 1st/early 2nd round prospect for a reason, just like Gabe Davis was considered a 4th round prospect for a reason. Also if you wanted the Bills to draft a WR high, they did that. I'll use myself as an example - I did not favor McConkey as our first pick, but I still would have been pleased if he was the pick because from a high level overview of team building it would have made sense. And then I would have watched to see how he developed as a player.

 

I learned the hard way with my incessant negative posting about Josh Allen before and after we picked him that you can't marry yourself to one or two specific player outcomes. As strongly as you feel about Coleman, you don't really know how the player is going to turn out. You're just setting yourself up to look really dumb if he turns into an elite player. Again, using myself as an example - I still get occasional reactions on my (stupid) post in the original Josh Allen thread after he was drafted. I married myself to one or two specific player outcomes and thankfully I was an idiot to do so.

 

Be happy the Bills at least used one of their top 150 picks on a player that made a lot sense based on the overall value and current roster state of the position. Personally I love him as a prospect but my personal evaluation is less important than the overall strategy that we executed with that pick. Contrarily I like Bishop as a prospect but hate that we drafted him when we did. As amateurs that just evaluate prospects for fun that is a more objective way to grade a pick immediately after it's made.

 

It also doesn't help that your evaluation features a poor player comp that doesn't match up with pretty much anybody that has studied these players. Player comps are fun but they have very limited value in reality.

 

Edited April 28 by HappyDays

[BuffaloBillyG]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

All you did with this thread and tell everyone you literally know nothing about Coleman and Davis.  If you did you wouldn’t have started it with these inaccurate and lazy comparisons.

 

And I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand…but Beane isn’t trying to bring in Davis 2.0 and Diggs 2.0 so stop trying to say well this guy must be this guys replacement.  Its not at all what they are doing.

This drives me crazy as well. It's like for years whenever there's a really good LBer in the draft we have to hear people say "Well McD has to have him so he has his Luke Keuchley". 

 

Teams that are coached well evolve to the players on the team. They change over time based on a number of things to include how the the league changes. 4 years ago the Diggs/Davis combo was not a bad set of skillets to have at WR.

 

Now with defenses showing more deep looks and taking away the big play what is offense turning into? WR screens. Hello Curtis Samuel. Tougher contested catches and plays in the middle of the field. Hello Keon Coleman. Some pounding runs to keep ahead of the sticks. Hello Ray Davis and Pran-Granger.

 

Sure, we need someone that can stretch the field and be that deep threat. Let's see if they bring in a DJ Chark for that. If KJ Hamler can stay healthy I'm not sleeping on him either. This offense is setting up to play against what NFL defenses are evolving to. Will it work? Time will tell. But I think they are moving in the right direction. 

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Wouldn't call Coleman a possession WR. He doesn't go down on first contact after the catch. He's got Deebo qualities with the ball in his hands. He offers more of a total package than Benjamin, Funchess, or the other comparison I've seen thrown around Mike Williams.

Anyone who calls him a possession receiver or compares him to Benjamin, Funchess, etc has no idea what they are talking about.  They are just uninformed people who read about a meaningless 40 time at the combine and made wild and stupid assumptions off it.
 

An actual comparison is actually a more athletic DeAndre Hopkins or Brandon Marshall.  In fact, if Hopkins and Marshall had a baby it would be Coleman.

 

And…wait for it…Coleman ran a faster 40 at his pro day and that was faster than both Hopkins and Marshall’s fastest 40 times.

 

Bonus nugget:  Anyone who thinks 40 times have anything to do with getting separation in the NFL have no idea about what they are talking about and no idea how analyze and grade a WR.

Edited April 28 by Alphadawg7

[harmonkillebrew]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Speed does matter. 

 

So does size. And strength. And leaping ability. Smarts. Anyone with half a brain can keep going and going. 

 

Speed is one factor. It matters. But again, so do many many other things. 

 

If he was running a 4.8, that'd pretty much rule him out. But he runs 4.5. And there are plenty of excellent WRs in that range, particularly when they're big and strong, guys like Anquan Boldin, Jerry Rice, Brandon Marshall, Hines Ward ... it just goes on and on. Puca Nacua and Cooper Kupp, if you want recent examples.

 

Nobody wants to hear the simple truth on this ... we have to wait and see. He might be very very good. He might not. But it's just a fact that his speed absolutely does not mean he won't be successful or even very very successful.

 

I've been reading a few reports suggesting Coleman's skill set maps well to a power slot.  Quickness at the line and strength/size to outcompete smaller slot CBs.  Could be a real good recipe in the red zone.

 

But now we have 4 slot WRs and 0 true boundary WRs. Are we just not going to work outside the numbers? Last season Gabe and Diggs were our boundary WRs (although Diggs played more and more in the slot).  Both gone, no real boundary WR replacement except Coleman.

 

I'm not down on Coleman per se, but he follows a Beane trend that hasn't worked out well before.  If Beane had gotten another WR in the draft to complement Coleman's traits or signed a boundary WR in FA it would make sense.  Still hoping that other shoe drops....

[dma0034]

I think the single biggest difference is that Benjamin didn't love Football and Coleman does. I doubt there will be any issues with Coleman adding too much weight. 

 

What I like about Coleman is the contested catches. Those led to some interceptions last year (both to Gabe and Diggs)

[dave mcbride]

17 hours ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Speed matters.
it's how you measure it effectively is how it's changed. GPS, 10-yd splits, etc.... Coleman's gauntlet drill speed was impressive.

But everything I've read on him mentions his big body, contested catch, traits. I've not seen much about separation and certainly not speed. So he falls more into the Benjamin, Funchess, Marques Colston, mode.  There are some good players out there with the same skill set. But what's interesting is that Beane really seems to like to draft them, even liked Benjamin so much that he traded a 3rd for him as well (when he got to Buffalo).

That's the friggin point. 

Reading comprehension in decline on this board. 

You really should watch the cover one link above. KC is nothing like those players beyond being tall. He is an INCREDIBLE athlete. As a number of people have said, you don’t make Tom Izzo’s team as a guard without being an elite athlete (leaping ability, strong hands, short area explosiveness, basketball moves). Kelvin Benjamin was never gonna make Michigan State’s basketball team. Devin Funchess literally played tight end his first two seasons at Michigan before transitioning to WR his final year there. 

[Alphadawg7]

41 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

I've been reading a few reports suggesting Coleman's skill set maps well to a power slot.  Quickness at the line and strength/size to outcompete smaller slot CBs.  Could be a real good recipe in the red zone.

 

But now we have 4 slot WRs and 0 true boundary WRs. Are we just not going to work outside the numbers? Last season Gabe and Diggs were our boundary WRs (although Diggs played more and more in the slot).  Both gone, no real boundary WR replacement except Coleman.

 

I'm not down on Coleman per se, but he follows a Beane trend that hasn't worked out well before.  If Beane had gotten another WR in the draft to complement Coleman's traits or signed a boundary WR in FA it would make sense.  Still hoping that other shoe drops....

I can assure you that you don’t at all understand who Keon Coleman is.  

Edited April 28 by Alphadawg7

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I can assure you that you don’t at all understand who Keon Coleman is.  

My new pet theory about why Josh wanted him so much: Allen has so many off-schedule, improvisational plays given his uncanny ability to escape the rush, and having a guy you can throw it to downfield after everything breaks down and expect that he’ll snag it over whatever DB is covering him is a huge asset to his game (and to the Bills’ offense). He has vice-like hands (watch the cover one analysis) and is incredible above the rim, so to speak. He is also very shifty for his size, unlike all of the other comps being mentioned.

[harmonkillebrew]

28 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

You really should watch the cover one link above. KC is nothing like those players beyond being tall. He is an INCREDIBLE athlete. As a number of people have said, you don’t make Tom Izzo’s team as a guard without being an elite athlete (leaping ability, strong hands, short area explosiveness, basketball moves). Kelvin Benjamin was never gonna make Michigan State’s basketball team. Devin Funchess literally played tight end his first two seasons at Michigan before transitioning to WR his final year there. 

People are overly fixated on the Benjamin-Coleman comparison. That's not the point. The point is Beane's tendency to draft bigger, slower WRs, going back to his time with Carolina where he was involved in drafting two of those types, and then trading a 3rd to bring the guy he drafted (Benjamin) to Buffalo. It's not about Coleman v. Benjamin per se. It's not the players themselves that are linked, it's the GM.  Beane used his one WR draft pick shot on a guy that follows a failed trend he's used in the past. 

 

I appreciate that Cover 1 video and some of the data points the it put out. It helped me see more of his athleticism. But there are still two traits that are lacking - downfield speed and separation ability on mid/deeper routes. His initial quickness should help in the power slot role and on short routes.  He'll be a reliable short field option with potential to break tackles and get YAC.  But we've already got 3 of those guys.  It seems the Bills are giving up on attacking downfield, trying to open up more intermediate/deep routes with faster guys with strong route running and separation. 

 

The Bills passed up a number of WRs that were higher rated. Even the Cover 1 guys, while trying to hype up Keon, said he was their 8/9th rated WR. The Bills seemed fixated on Coleman and passed up opportunities to be more aggressive, including hedging their bets by doubling down on a WR with a more boundary, downfield skill set. 

 

Really stinks to see the Bills piss away Josh's talent with paltry WR talent. Burrow has Chase, Higgins, and Boyd; Philly traded for AJ Brown then still drafted Devonta Smith. 49ers have Ayiuk, Deebo, and still drafted Pearsall.  Ravens are constantly adding talent for Lamar, who is a much less talented passer than Josh. All those teams have gone farther than the Bills in the playoffs, including SB, consistently.  

 

And we have a rookie WR (2nd round pick) that we're banking on to step in as our #1 WR. It's an utter fail.