Coleman = Benjamin, Davis = Moss - Beane players

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Next year, Bills fans are going to realize, really quickly, that we have no replacement on this roster for Stephon Diggs.

 

Unless Beane still has a trade trick up his sleeve...which he might.

 

But we are worse at the WR position right now.

 

 

Not just worse. Might be one of the worst in the league. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

And I don't get it.

I do.

 

It's about ceilings and floors. After taking the ultimate low-floor, high-ceiling QB in Josh Allen, just about every other player the Bills have drafted under beane are high-floor, low-ceiling guys. Low risk. "Speed" players often carry an element of risk that mudders don't.

 

It's smart if you want to improve your job longevity, but not smart if you want to try and win a championship.

 

OFC Beane could prove me wrong with some kind of blockbuster trade after the draft, but I ain't holding my breath.

 

[34-78-83]

awful comparisons. Those comparisons are actually addressed in this cover 1 video. I'd recommend it -

 

He's a waaay better athlete than Benjamin was and the hands and over the top abilities in tight coverage are worlds better than Gabe.

 

 

 

 

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

40 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Beane has a real tendency for a certain type of player.

Ray Davis is a  Zack Moss clone

Coleman isn't too far off from Kelvin Benjamin and Devin Funchess.

 

None of those guys panned out.

 

Seems Beane consistently under values speed in skill players.  I was hoping we'd come out of this draft faster and more explosive on O, but instead it's more of the usual.

 

Coleman would have been a decent replacement for Gabe. Similar skill set. Is Samuel supposed to be the Diggs replacement? Hard to see us being better on offense. 

 

Or defense for that matter. They don't seem to have a vision or plan for getting better than the Chiefs. Feels like a reset year.

Comparison between Benjamin and Coleman is not valid other than they’re both tall and went to FSU. Benjamin was overweight and not an elite athlete.

 

And if I get current Zack Moss in the 4th round that’s bad? Did you see Zac Moss outperform Jonathan Taylor last year in his own team, or no?

[Logic]

I'm not a fan of the Keon Coleman pick, but to say that he's Kelvin Benjamin is a lazy, reductionist take.

Coleman is a different type of player and is more athletic and less stiff and offers better RAC than Benjamin.

I'm guessing you just looked at their heights and their a alma mater before making your statement.

And Davis isn't Zack Moss. He's the love child of Zack Moss and Devin Singletary. So...you're probably actually on to something with that one.

[Success]

Coleman supposedly has an incredible work ethic.

 

I think the Benjamin comparison can effectively end there.

 

[harmonkillebrew]

32 minutes ago, mrags said:

Kind of where I am. Year after year they say they need to get faster and more explosive and we’re right here every year wondering wtf they are doing. I think Coleman is slower than Gabe was. 
 

explosive is not in Beane or McDermotts vocabulary other than pretending they want it in their end of season interviews 

All talk. 

You see the Chiefs and Dolphins, even Ravens adding speed with some measurable success.  Then we go out and get slower.

Coleman and Davis were both considerably slower than other guys available. Doesn't mean they will fail, but it does track to a Beane tendency that seems to be out of step with the league.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, harmonkillebrew said:

All talk. 

You see the Chiefs and Dolphins, even Ravens adding speed with some measurable success.  Then we go out and get slower.

Coleman and Davis were both considerably slower than other guys available. Doesn't mean they will fail, but it does track to a Beane tendency that seems to be out of step with the league.

It’s a team in McDermotrs image. It’s a losing recipe imo 

[BruceVilanch]

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

All talk. 

You see the Chiefs and Dolphins, even Ravens adding speed with some measurable success.  Then we go out and get slower.

Coleman and Davis were both considerably slower than other guys available. Doesn't mean they will fail, but it does track to a Beane tendency that seems to be out of step with the league.

As the combine has grown into one of the NFL's most marketed offseason events over the past two decades, the 40-yard dash has provided a stage to showcase athletic evolution, with each crop of the league's newcomers coming in bigger and faster than ever.

All of this is remarkable, considering the drill has all but lost its utility to front office personnel and data analysts around the league in the modern era.

The 40 is no longer the most effective way to determine a player's speed. The value it once had to teams has diminished in its 80-year existence, as clubs turn toward other means -- such as GPS tracking and analytical data -- to fully understand how fast a player can move in football specific situations.
 

The above from an article by Marcel Louis-Jacques on espn.com.  Can we please stop with the speed stuff?  Beane and McD wanted explosive and one of Coleman’s tests is very favorable there if you want to rely on those tests.  Bishop apparently has that trait when playing in the box.  The DT from round 3 apparently has that trait.  The Edge kid from Troy.

Edited April 27 by oldmanfan

[harmonkillebrew]

27 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

Comparison between Benjamin and Coleman is not valid other than they’re both tall and went to FSU. Benjamin was overweight and not an elite athlete.

 

And if I get current Zack Moss in the 4th round that’s bad? Did you see Zac Moss outperform Jonathan Taylor last year in his own team, or no?

Didn't Beane also draft Devin Funchess?  

There has long been an assumption that big bodied outside WRs can outmuscle and make contested catches, but that has been debunked. It's separation that produces results, either from speed, quickness, or good footwork/routes. Teams have been going more and more for smaller WRs with great separation skills. Look at who Andy Reid added this offseason - Worthy and Hollywood Brown. People are pretty high on Coleman as a contested catch specialist with great hands, but can he separate consistently? We know Gabe couldn't. 

 

I don't know why Beane traded Moss for a guy they never used. He was still on his rookie K. I guess he wants a do-over. 

 

I'm not dogging any of these guys as players. I don't know enough about them as a fan. I'm just pointing out what seems to be a trend from Beane that seems old school, out of touch with the league, and counter to what the say themselves.  They seem to like/want a plodding, ball-control offense.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

Just now, mrags said:

It’s a team in McDermotrs image. It’s a losing recipe imo 

The Bills have made the post season 5 consecutive seasons.

They have won the division in now 4 consecutive years.

In that same time frame their regular season record is 58-24

 

Im not sure you have a full grasp on what a “losing recipe” is there, friend.

 

 

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Lazy comparisons 

I agree but there may be some truth to comparing what he’s done here in a build - rebuild and what Carolina did when he was there. 
 

Clearly some consistent pursuit of the big body possession receiver for instance, right? Not everyone chases benjamin-funches-trade for Benjamin-Davis-Coleman 

 

not clones, but seems a certain archetype he may like 

[mrags]

Just now, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

The Bills have made the post season 5 consecutive seasons.

They have won the division in now 4 consecutive years.

In that same time frame their regular season record is 58-24

 

Im not sure you have a full grasp on what a “losing recipe” is there, friend.

 

 

Oh no. I do. They lose in the playoffs against good team every single year 

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

1 minute ago, harmonkillebrew said:

Didn't Beane also draft Devin Funchess?  

There has long been an assumption that big bodied outside WRs can outmuscle and make contested catches, but that has been debunked. It's separation that produces results, either from speed, quickness, or good footwork/routes. Teams have been going more and more for smaller WRs with great separation skills. Look at who Andy Reid added this offseason - Worthy and Hollywood Brown. People are pretty high on Coleman as a contested catch specialist with great hands, but can he separate consistently? We know Gabe couldn't. 

 

I don't know why Beane traded Moss for a guy they never used. He was still on his rookie K. I guess he wants a do-over. 

 

I'm not dogging any of these guys as players. I don't know enough about them as a fan. I'm just pointing out what seems to be a trend from Beane that seems old school, out of touch with the league, and counter to what the say themselves.  They seem to like/want a plodding, ball-control offense.

Beane wasn’t the GM in Carolina, so no he did not draft Devon Funchess, nor did he draft Kelvin Benjamin.

 

[GoBills808]

42 minutes ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

Anyone who compares Coleman to Benjamin can be immediately written off

They're both big wideouts from the same school scouted/drafted early by Beane, relax

[dma0034]

Einhorn = Finkle

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

Oh no. I do. They lose in the playoffs against good team every single year 

That’s not a losing formula though, it’s having trouble finishing the job.

13 seconds was coaching gaffes

Last year was snake bit by injuries and inexcusably putting AJ Klein on the field in the biggest game of Josh’s career.

In NONE of these losses has a lack of speed at WR been a factor though, that’s just bull####.

 

 

*Klein’s lack of speed on the other side of the ball obviously contributed, but when literally your entire LB corp and their reserves are decimated, idk what options you go with there. Clearly not AJ Klein though. 

 

Edited April 27 by Dr.Mantis_Toboggan

[harmonkillebrew]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

As the combine has grown into one of the NFL's most marketed offseason events over the past two decades, the 40-yard dash has provided a stage to showcase athletic evolution, with each crop of the league's newcomers coming in bigger and faster than ever.

All of this is remarkable, considering the drill has all but lost its utility to front office personnel and data analysts around the league in the modern era.

The 40 is no longer the most effective way to determine a player's speed. The value it once had to teams has diminished in its 80-year existence, as clubs turn toward other means -- such as GPS tracking and analytical data -- to fully understand how fast a player can move in football specific situations.
 

The above from an article by Marcel Louis-Jacques on espn.com.  Can we please stop with the speed stuff?  Beane and McD wanted explosive and one of Coleman’s tests is very favorable there if you want to rely on those tests.  Bishop apparently has that trait when playing in the box.  The DT from round 3 apparently has that trait.  The Edge kid from Troy.

Speed matters.
it's how you measure it effectively is how it's changed. GPS, 10-yd splits, etc.... Coleman's gauntlet drill speed was impressive.

But everything I've read on him mentions his big body, contested catch, traits. I've not seen much about separation and certainly not speed. So he falls more into the Benjamin, Funchess, Marques Colston, mode.  There are some good players out there with the same skill set. But what's interesting is that Beane really seems to like to draft them, even liked Benjamin so much that he traded a 3rd for him as well (when he got to Buffalo).

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I agree but there may be some truth to comparing what he’s done here in a build - rebuild and what Carolina did when he was there. 
 

Clearly some consistent pursuit of the big body possession receiver for instance, right? Not everyone chases benjamin-funches-trade for Benjamin-Davis-Coleman 

 

not clones, but seems a certain archetype he may like 

That's the friggin point. 

Reading comprehension in decline on this board. 

[NoSaint]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

Coleman supposedly has an incredible work ethic.

 

I think the Benjamin comparison can effectively end there.

 

I think a lot of bills fans forget Benjamin had like 1900 yards in his first 2 seasons and think the comparison is to fat kelvin.