For those that don’t like the Coleman pick

[VW82]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So for whatever it's worth, Beane and his scouts don't agree with his college profile.  Beane said he's great against press and has good moves

 

Now he may be wrong, but that's his evaluation.

 

FWIW, some guys with good eyes like Dan Orlovsky and Chris Simms are enthused

PS FWIW this is what Stefon Diggs draft profile said:

"Doesn't possess the strength or long speed to make a living as an outside receiver, but he can be an extremely effective weapon from the slot as a pro".   That would be news to the Vikes and the Bills.

 

Yeah clearly Beane thinks they can coach him up. There are definitely things to like. The thing majority of people agree on is he struggles to gain separation which we know is the one main trait Josh needs from his receivers (or he won't throw). 

 

Coleman is a Bill and so I will cheer for him. I just think it may take some time to figure out how he can help. 

[ghostwriter]

2 minutes ago, <bills4life> said:

How many quarterbacks were drafted ahead of Tom Brady?

Chad Pennington.

Giovanni Carmazzi.

Chris Redman.

Tee Martin.

Marc Bulger.

Spergon Wynn.

 

it can work both ways though 😂 

Which player has a higher likelihood of being successful? One taken early or one taken late?

[<bills4life>]

2 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Which player has a higher likelihood of being successful? One taken early or one taken late?

That’s fair.

[Aurelius]

3 minutes ago, MPL said:

This video sums up the likelihood of Coleman being successful as a true x in the NFL. Data says he has a better chance of success out of the slot (and could potentially be great out of the slot).

 

 

Teams are going to have a tough enough time figuring out how to guard Kinkaid and Knox in the middle of the field, with Shakir’s route running in the slot.  He will be more than fine on the edge as a WR.  Curtis has more than enough speed on the other side.  For all intents and purposes, Andre Reed was more of a possession guy across the middle, rather than a speed guy separating on the edge.  Lofton was our downfield guy.  People are making a bit much abojt his separation but he will more likely do that with his physical ability to pull the ball down ala Tee Higgins who many here were also interested in.  Higgins another big, “slow” receiver in same mold.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

It’s ONLY because he ran a 4.61 and didn’t participate in agility drills. Coleman is a fine athlete and good route runner. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Yeah clearly Beane thinks they can coach him up. There are definitely things to like. The thing majority of people agree on is he struggles to gain separation which we know is the one main trait Josh needs from his receivers (or he won't throw). 

 

Coleman is a Bill and so I will cheer for him. I just think it may take some time to figure out how he can help. 

Idk that I agree with the first point lol. Seems like josh tries to laser throws into super tight coverage pretty often if he expects his guy to come down with it.  A physical receiver that can come down with jump balls would be a huge asset for him 

 

to me it feels like when josh loses faith in a receiver’s ability to catch the ball he starts maybe looking elsewhere even if they have a step 

[VW82]

6 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Idk that I agree with the first point lol. Seems like josh tries to laser throws into super tight coverage pretty often if he expects his guy to come down with it.  A physical receiver that can come down with jump balls would be a huge asset for him 

 

to me it feels like when josh loses faith in a receiver’s ability to catch the ball he starts maybe looking elsewhere even if they have a step 

Sure. Josh makes bad decisions and throws into coverage sometimes, especially if it's to a trusted option like Diggs. 

 

More often than not, his time to throw is a little on the high side and it's because he won't throw unless he sees someone open. He'll scramble for more time just to give guys more time to get open. Contrast this to other QBs who will actually throw guys open. 

 

Processing when and who to throw to is still one of the areas Josh can really improve.

Edited April 27 by VW82

[Green Lightning]

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

Okay, that’s different than saying “we have no elite speed.” 

We have one guy below 4.4 speed on offense. Just saying 2 would be nice.

 

[JGMcD2]

Just now, Green Lightning said:

We have one guy below 4.4 speed on offense. Just saying 2 would be nice.

 

Saying we have one guy with sub 4.4 speed is different than saying we have 0 players with elite speed. 

[Green Lightning]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

Saying we have one guy with sub 4.4 speed is different than saying we have 0 players with elite speed. 

True, you are so very astute. If your fine with what we have, good for you.

[JGMcD2]

Just now, Green Lightning said:

True, you are so very astute. If your fine with what we have, good for you.

You don’t have to be satisfied and I’m not saying I am.

 

I just prefer to make sure all the facts are on the table. 

[Beck Water]

19 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Sure. Josh makes bad decisions and throws into coverage sometimes, especially if it's to a trusted option like Diggs. 

 

More often than not, his time to throw is a little on the high side and it's because he won't throw unless he sees someone open. He'll scramble for more time just to give guys more time to get open. Contrast this to other QBs who will actually throw guys open. 

 

Processing when and who to throw to is still one of the areas Josh can really improve.

 

We can't argue the result (time to throw IS on the high side) but we 100% disagree on the cause.

 

It's nuts to me to believe Josh won't throw unless he sees someone open.  He got away from that in 2020, when he learned to throw to the spot even on option routes and trust the WR to choose the same option, which, with Beasley and with Diggs when he and Josh were tight, was usually well-placed trust.  Some of Josh's picks last year were because he and the WR weren't reading the defense the same way and he threw it to a place the WR wasn't.  Others were because he trusted Gabe Davis to come down with the ball or Diggs to make it "my ball or no one's ball", and his trust was misplaced.

 

I think Josh's time to throw is on the high side because he has that "Brett Favre says touchdowns first, Coach!" mentality and he doesn't want to take the short pass to the open guy, instead he'd rather extend and see if he can find someone open deep on a scramble drill, not because he will only throw to a wide open receiver.

All that said - I 100% agree that processing who to throw to given the defense is one of the areas where Josh can really improve.

 

 

[OldTimer1960]

6 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Would have been smart to go get the guy that was first on his wish list …

This is radio-fodder talk.

[Beck Water]

11 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

We have one guy below 4.4 speed on offense. Just saying 2 would be nice.

 

 

We have two.  Samuel and Isabella.  Cook is dang close with a 4.42 40-time, as well.

 

Now you can say you don't think they're the right guys, or we need different guys or better guys, but that's different from saying we don't have guys.

[Green Lightning]

12 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

We have two.  Samuel and Isabella.  Cook is dang close with a 4.42 40-time, as well.

 

Now you can say you don't think they're the right guys, or we need different guys or better guys, but that's different from saying we don't have guys.

O receptions for 0 yards. But yes, he's under 4.4.

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

O receptions for 0 yards. But yes, he's under 4.4.

 

Right.  Excellent point.  What's your conclusion from that?

 

Mine:

1) just because a guy has legit sub-4.4 speed doesn't mean he will succeed in the NFL

2) just because a guy doesn't have sub-4.4 speed, doesn't mean he won't succeed in the NFL

3) if you want a guy who is the complete package as a draft prospect, figure out how to get to the top of the 1st round

4) otherwise, pick a guy who has traits you value and gaps you think you can coach up

 

Obviously Beane didn't want to give up whatever he would have had to give up, to get to the top of the 1st round, so he's going by 4)

 

Isabella, in particular, indicates the paradox that sub-4.4 speed and college success don't assure NFL competence.  He was drafted in the 2nd round by the Cardinals because of his combination of both elite speed AND quickness with "the feet and the fakes to uncover in a hallway closet".  He has a relative athletic score of 96.  But his scouting report also noted "Restricted escape angles against press could offer challenge.....Can be shoved off the route path by solid contact. Obvious catch-radius limitations due to size. Chronic body catcher. Rolling starts lead to excessive false-start penalties."  Obviously, the Cards hoped they could coach those things up, and 5 years later teams are still hoping.  

You can't coach speed (you can train to improve it, obviously), but there are other traits like elite catching skills and physicality which are also apparently hard to coach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Green Lightning]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Right.  Excellent point.  What's your conclusion from that?

 

Mine:

1) just because a guy has legit sub-4.4 speed doesn't mean he will succeed in the NFL

2) just because a guy doesn't have sub-4.4 speed, doesn't mean he won't succeed in the NFL

3) if you want a guy who is the complete package as a draft prospect, figure out how to get to the top of the 1st round

4) otherwise, pick a guy who has traits you value and gaps you think you can coach up

 

Obviously Beane didn't want to give up whatever he would have had to give up, to get to the top of the 1st round, so he's going by 4)

 

Isabella, in particular, indicates the paradox that sub-4.4 speed and college success don't assure NFL competence.  He was drafted in the 2nd round by the Cardinals because of his combination of both elite speed AND quickness with "the feet and the fakes to uncover in a hallway closet".  He has a relative athletic score of 96.  But his scouting report also noted "Restricted escape angles against press could offer challenge.....Can be shoved off the route path by solid contact. Obvious catch-radius limitations due to size. Chronic body catcher. Rolling starts lead to excessive false-start penalties."  Obviously, the Cards hoped they could coach those things up, and 5 years later teams are still hoping.  

You can't coach speed (you can train to improve it, obviously), but there are other traits like elite catching skills and physicality which are also apparently hard to coach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mine: Isabella sucks.

 

I kid, but end of day we're kinda of saying the same thing. Fast doesn't = football player.

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't understand this "Coleman is a big slot" thing at all.

 

1) I read he played the majority of his offensive snaps at the X in Florida

2) we are already overloaded with guys at WR who are at their best from the slot, why ever would Beane draft a WR with our top pick if he thought he was a slot?

3) Beane has unambiguously said, Coleman will be playing the X in the Bills offense

My guess is that the Bills feel that he has the physical tools to refine his route running, because of his basketball background, and that is something they can "coach up" more easily than coaching up reliable hands or the timing to high-point balls.

One thing I'm about as positive as I can be is Beane is correct, he plays faster than his combine speed.  I could see it in the gauntlet drill at the combine; somewhere it was posted he reached 21 mph by GPS.

 

Yes, the fastest gauntlet time of any WR in the past 2 years.

[ngbills]

10 hours ago, Sammy Watkins&#x27; Rib said:

You don't get put in as punt returner if you don't have some natural athletic ability. The fact that he returned punts for FSU at his body size is a good sign IMO. This guy has football quickness and IQ. 

No player in the nfl has some natural athletic ability. They all have elite athletic ability. All of them. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

No player in the nfl has some natural athletic ability. They all have elite athletic ability. All of them. 

What ability would you call a 6’3” 210lb guy returner punts? It’s definitely a unique trait for someone of that size.