MasterStrategist Posted May 27 Posted May 27 2 hours ago, PBF81 said: I lean to putting that in the Drop category. The ball was very catchable. It was nicely thrown over his right shoulder to the outside. The defender, Jones, while on him, isn't even a factor until the end of the what-should-have-been-a-catch. Either way, it's debatable, but it doesn't support the narrative. It's an excuse play. Again, clearly a drop, more so than the first one. The ball was right in his hands. Our current receivers make that catch. Agree on no drop. This is a who-cares play. If he ends up distinguishing himself here with that kind of nonsense then we're screwed. LOL My simply question, both now and running, is does his play in this game support the narrative? It seems that we agree that it does not. There's a whole lot more of this ahead in the next 9 games than that which will support the narrative. Just sayin'. BTW, as to overall catch rate, which presumably you mean catch%, that's fine, but I'm discounting that because the vast majority of his plays are in the high-percentage category. Either way, again, my focus is on either substantiating or not-so-much the narrative on him. It seems that thus far we're both somewhere on the side of that the narrative is stronger than the reality. BTW, I'm going to be really busy this week, I'll try to get to any response promptly, but it likely won't be prompt. LOL I'll move that 1st pass to a "drop", it was in my eye as well, mainly because it was a good throw/poor body control on Coleman. Thx for that one. Yeah as of now, thru 3 games, seems we're on same page as you said. Watching all his targets in a very detail oriented way, similar to coaches used to rewind tape/slow motion/repeat, and looking at what his competiton/what he did well in route/body control/etc...he's looking like an avg WR so far (1 good game, 2 lackluster games). One thing I am noticing is his body control, which seems inconsistent so far, on the fade/contested catch situations. I think there's definitely potential to work with, if he clean up his body leverage and footwork at end of route. At least to me, it's an encouraging trait(s) but performance not backing it up thus far 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted May 27 Posted May 27 1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said: I'll move that 1st pass to a "drop", it was in my eye as well, mainly because it was a good throw/poor body control on Coleman. Thx for that one. Yeah as of now, thru 3 games, seems we're on same page as you said. Watching all his targets in a very detail oriented way, similar to coaches used to rewind tape/slow motion/repeat, and looking at what his competiton/what he did well in route/body control/etc...he's looking like an avg WR so far (1 good game, 2 lackluster games). One thing I am noticing is his body control, which seems inconsistent so far, on the fade/contested catch situations. I think there's definitely potential to work with, if he clean up his body leverage and footwork at end of route. At least to me, it's an encouraging trait(s) but performance not backing it up thus far Thanks for that. And again, the goal here isn't to demean the guy, but the industry thrives on talking teams, coaches, players up. What we're doing is simply taking the narrative, which we know what it is, and asking ourselves whether, or perhaps to what extent, it has any basis in reality. Agree on the body-control and good catch there. That was in my subconscious but I hadn't defined it to myself. Is that a coachable thing? Maybe or maybe not. I always look to see which terminal weaknesses of a player can be coached and conversely which cannot be. Speed and ability to separate for example typically cannot be. And then of course, as another example, Coleman typically thrives in Zones, not M2M, but the DCs that we face will dicate that, not McD, Brady, or Coleman. How we react will be on them. Are we good at reacting, ... aka adjusting? IMO we're not among the best to be kind. Then of course there's the speed of the NFL and by inference the speed of the defenders. NFL LBs are typically going to be faster than most of the DBs that covered Coleman. So how does that work out. Here are his Weaknesses as outlined on NFL.com's draft profile for him, using that site for simplicity's sake. Weaknesses Press coverage can blanket his release and catch a ride. Below-average acceleration getting out of breaks and cuts. Could struggle finding separation to avoid excessive contested catches. Needs to play through downfield corners to secure catch space. Capable of being a much more effective run blocker. The first three aren't really coachable. The fourth, maybe a little bit on technique, but not so much so as it relates to speed. The fifth is more coachable, but we didn't draft him with that draft capital to be an effective run blocker. If all he turns into is a #3/4 WR that's a good run blocker it's a pretty good guess that just about everyone will have considered him to have been more bust than boom. Again, simply generally speaking. Quote
MasterStrategist Posted May 27 Posted May 27 16 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Thanks for that. And again, the goal here isn't to demean the guy, but the industry thrives on talking teams, coaches, players up. What we're doing is simply taking the narrative, which we know what it is, and asking ourselves whether, or perhaps to what extent, it has any basis in reality. Agree on the body-control and good catch there. That was in my subconscious but I hadn't defined it to myself. Is that a coachable thing? Maybe or maybe not. I always look to see which terminal weaknesses of a player can be coached and conversely which cannot be. Speed and ability to separate for example typically cannot be. And then of course, as another example, Coleman typically thrives in Zones, not M2M, but the DCs that we face will dicate that, not McD, Brady, or Coleman. How we react will be on them. Are we good at reacting, ... aka adjusting? IMO we're not among the best to be kind. Then of course there's the speed of the NFL and by inference the speed of the defenders. NFL LBs are typically going to be faster than most of the DBs that covered Coleman. So how does that work out. Here are his Weaknesses as outlined on NFL.com's draft profile for him, using that site for simplicity's sake. Weaknesses Press coverage can blanket his release and catch a ride. Below-average acceleration getting out of breaks and cuts. Could struggle finding separation to avoid excessive contested catches. Needs to play through downfield corners to secure catch space. Capable of being a much more effective run blocker. The first three aren't really coachable. The fourth, maybe a little bit on technique, but not so much so as it relates to speed. The fifth is more coachable, but we didn't draft him with that draft capital to be an effective run blocker. If all he turns into is a #3/4 WR that's a good run blocker it's a pretty good guess that just about everyone will have considered him to have been more bust than boom. Again, simply generally speaking. Yep, alot of good points here and agree. I think the body control/footwork looks better than Mich ST, not sure if by coaching/repetition (since he's still so young) or adjustments. He has those natural "above rim" skills, so hoping they can get him more consistent. I think Beane mentioned during post draft presser, they see some potential for more "explosion", working with NFL strength and conditioning. I think that's the case for most coming into the NFL, at his age. I think that's what alot might come down to: can he improve footwork/quicker breaks and more power to his game (contested catches, getting off press), perhaps slightly faster. He seems to be a very hard worker, so that won't be the issue. Hopefully that untapped potential/talent is there. But yes back to the point of game review, agree on what you said above and saw your note about a busy week. I'll take my time looking through the next game or 2. 1 Quote
JohnBonhamRocks Posted May 27 Posted May 27 My sources say he placed a large order at The Bar Bill today. Quote
PBF81 Posted May 28 Posted May 28 2 hours ago, JohnBonhamRocks said: My sources say he placed a large order at The Bar Bill today. Hold on hold on ... Original or North? Quote
JohnBonhamRocks Posted May 28 Posted May 28 48 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Hold on hold on ... Original or North? Original in EA 1 Quote
EasternOHBillsFan Posted May 28 Posted May 28 Can we LOCK THIS THREAD for posterity?!?! I can't wait to see how many of these instant reactions are hammered later 1 Quote
Gregg Posted May 28 Posted May 28 ESPN Fantasy Sports on X: "CeeDee Lamb and Keon Coleman are putting in work together 💪 (📸 @DelfonteDiamond) https://t.co/k88V6rj7Kd" / X 1 1 Quote
nedboy7 Posted May 28 Posted May 28 Let's play guess this WR...... From his pre-draft analysis. POSITIVES —Long, tall WR with very good size. —True weapon in the red zone. Will use his size and length to high-point throws and flashes the ability to win contested catches. —Good hands with good catching range. Will consistently use his length and size. —Best on vertical routes where he can get to top speed and threaten a defender's cushion. —Flashes good strength and willingness to use size. Is able to box out CBs completely away from the ball on in-breaking routes. NEGATIVES —Play speed slower than timed speed. Gets stuck in fourth gear and can't completely open up. —Limited after the catch. Big and lacks the twitch to make defenders miss in tight spaces. —Overall a slow-twitch player who requires build-up to get to top speed due to size and long legs. Not a sharp breaker on routes and that will allow defenders to undercut throws at the next level. —Does not consistently utilize his size when blocking. More of a shield blocker than someone who imposes their will. This lack of consistent fight also can crop up on 50/50 throws. Hint.... He is being discussed in another thread..... Quote
3rdand12 Posted May 29 Posted May 29 (edited) 2 hours ago, nedboy7 said: Let's play guess this WR...... From his pre-draft analysis. POSITIVES —Long, tall WR with very good size. —True weapon in the red zone. Will use his size and length to high-point throws and flashes the ability to win contested catches. —Good hands with good catching range. Will consistently use his length and size. —Best on vertical routes where he can get to top speed and threaten a defender's cushion. —Flashes good strength and willingness to use size. Is able to box out CBs completely away from the ball on in-breaking routes. NEGATIVES —Play speed slower than timed speed. Gets stuck in fourth gear and can't completely open up. —Limited after the catch. Big and lacks the twitch to make defenders miss in tight spaces. —Overall a slow-twitch player who requires build-up to get to top speed due to size and long legs. Not a sharp breaker on routes and that will allow defenders to undercut throws at the next level. —Does not consistently utilize his size when blocking. More of a shield blocker than someone who imposes their will. This lack of consistent fight also can crop up on 50/50 throws. Hint.... He is being discussed in another thread..... Pasted from above " Hint.... He is being discussed in another thread..... Xavier Worthy LOL Edited May 29 by 3rdand12 1 Quote
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