Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 24 Posted April 24 1 hour ago, Low Positive said: My favorite thread all time - so many receipts. 3 1 2
sven233 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 2 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: See post upthread about my pondering the value of Jefferson. I realize the goal in maintaining salary structure, etc., but it’s possible that at some point there’s more value in trading for the big ticket, established wideout than there is on spending a fortune in draft capital on a likely, but still uncertain, if-come. There is risk no matter what way you decide to go. That is why everything, even the choice you consider the safest is still a crap shoot. If you go with a rookie......is he going to be good? Is he going to be dominant enough to make you at least not mind the capital you gave up to get him? Would you have been just as happy 2 years from now staying put and taking a guys like Legette or someone else? Heck, stay put, take someone like Legette and then trade all the way back up in the 2nd round and double dip and take Worthy of someone else too! You don't get to know how these things would work out now,so you have to decide if it is worth the risk. What about the established star? How can you make the contract fit? Will that contract prevent you from signing another important player down the road? Will the skill set that he has completely transfer over to a new offense? Will that new offense get the most out of that star? Etc. etc....... That is why all of this is such a crap shoot and so much fun to talk about and debate. All of these questions above are one thing......then you throw in the potential of a serious injury in either scenario that would flush either option down the toilet immediately. It's a high risk game these teams play both on and off the field. As of now, I am in win now at all costs mode. We have, in my opinion, the most talented QB in the NFL and I want to take every swing I can over the next 5 years to win. So, I am looking to try to do both. Can I find a way to get the top 3 rookie and still go out there and get a top vet WR to pair with him? Maybe not JJ, but what about DK or Ayuik? Or forget the vet.....find a way to double dip at WR in the draft like I mentioned above. Picks are great for building your team. But when you are trying to win a Super Bowl, you have to think differently and I wouldn't blame the Bills one bit if they traded away 50% of the next 2 drafts to put the best weapons possible around Allen and just try to score 35-40 a game. Have your defensive genius head coach find a way to get 3-4 stops a game and just try to score as many points as possible and see what happens.
ndirish1978 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 We moved up to 7 to draft a franchise QB. I don't get the moving up to the top 6 to draft a WR when the hit rates are uncertain. I would stick and pick and then trade out of the 2nd to wind up with 2 3rds since you're getting the most value in this particular draft in that round.
Alphadawg7 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 52 minutes ago, Beck Water said: I thought (I could be wrong) that NFL.com used the official data from the combine. They typically lack data from players who didn't participate in drills at the combine, for example, even if data from their college pro days is out there. Of course a typo is possible anywhere, I guess. I'm not paying so much attention to his height and weight, as to his scouting report because Zierlein usually says stuff I nod about if I come back to it in a couple years. I "get it" that there's an argument to be made for BPA, but taken to its extreme obviously you could wind up with a team full of DE and no DT or something. So "need" has to crawl into there somehow. Like many here, my perception of the Bills current best receivers (Kincaid, Samuel, Shakir) is that all of them do their best work with a free release, and none of them are at their best trying to win a release against press man on the boundary. Samuel can do it, but I think I read his most recent years have been ~75% of his snaps from the slot. Shakir can play on the boundary but at best "he has to demonstrate" against press man and his short arms handicap him there. IMO, we really have lacked someone with the tools to win against "sticky" physical coverage even with Diggs on the team the last couple of years and it's cost us in playoffs. It certainly cost us in 2019 when our top receivers were 5'10 John Brown and 5'8" Cole Beasley, and Allen wound up directing critical throws to Duke Williams and Pat DiMarco in the playoffs 'cuz Brown and Beasley were being erased. So when I read stuff like " lacks play strength and release quickness to defeat a quality NFL press" and "lacks the physical tools to catch when contested and needs to prove he can hold up to a more physical brand of football" as well as "needs to improve efficiency and quickness getting off the ball. Lack of hand strength gets him bullied on contested catches......Takes reps off when he’s not expecting the throw to come his way......Fails to adjust his speed to ball placement consistently enough." I have a hard time seeing him as the right match of "need-adjusted BPA" or whatever it is being called now. Of course, as Beane has pointed out, there are different ways to fill needs, so if he falls to us and we've rated him as BPA because they have enthusiasm for his potential, So Be It but I'm going to have uncomfortable CJ Spiller flashbacks if the Bills trade up for the guy. I honestly can't pretend to know enough about college football to have a meaningful personal opinion about who we should draft, but I do have views about where the Bills current roster has shown itself lacking the previous season and likely to lack after new-league-year roster moves. This is exactly my concerns with Worthy. One of our biggest issues is that our offense has NOT been suited for tough physical games, especially in bad weather. We want an outdoor stadium then you better have a team that excels in the bad weather if you want that to be an advantage and not a disadvantage. When the howling winds, rain, snow, etc come the first thing that gets negated is speed and the first thing that gets magnified if toughness and physical play. If we already had some size and strength on this team, then great, go get that elite speed guy. But we don't, not even at RB. I just feel like come late season and postseason, we need more toughness than just Josh Allen. 2 1
Beck Water Posted April 24 Posted April 24 13 minutes ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said: Absolute gems in that thread I'm going to pick on two of my favorite posters here: On 4/26/2018 at 8:40 PM, HappyDays said: God I actually think we'll start Peterman this year Obviously, both of these gentlemen were proven correct. We DID start Peterman that year, including for the Season Opener (for half a game) and It was a Clown Show 1
Low Positive Posted April 24 Posted April 24 11 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: My favorite thread all time - so many receipts. I've got it bookmarked. I'm just happy that chose to yell at the TV instead of posting.
nedboy7 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 (edited) God that thread is so satisfying to read. I believe most of those posters have changed their screen names. Or they can't handle prosperity and have disappeared. " Pegula is such a **** owner, his teams will never have success. The Bills maintain their laughing stock status. Allen over Rosen, this mistake will be remembered for decades. FO is full of a bunch of arrogant pricks." Edited April 24 by nedboy7 1
Solomon Grundy Posted April 24 Posted April 24 8 minutes ago, blitzboy54 said: I'm guessing they don't move up at all. I'm okay with moving back from 28 and getting an earlier than #60 pick and a later 3rd for compensation, if possible. That will give Beane 2-2nd round picks and a 3rd rounder to get his two receivers in the first 3 rounds. 1 1
Mikey152 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: I thought (I could be wrong) that NFL.com used the official data from the combine. They typically lack data from players who didn't participate in drills at the combine, for example, even if data from their college pro days is out there. Of course a typo is possible anywhere, I guess. I'm not paying so much attention to his height and weight, as to his scouting report because Zierlein usually says stuff I nod about if I come back to it in a couple years. I "get it" that there's an argument to be made for BPA, but taken to its extreme obviously you could wind up with a team full of DE and no DT or something. So "need" has to crawl into there somehow. Like many here, my perception of the Bills current best receivers (Kincaid, Samuel, Shakir) is that all of them do their best work with a free release, and none of them are at their best trying to win a release against press man on the boundary. Samuel can do it, but I think I read his most recent years have been ~75% of his snaps from the slot. Shakir can play on the boundary but at best "he has to demonstrate" against press man and his short arms handicap him there. IMO, we really have lacked someone with the tools to win against "sticky" physical coverage even with Diggs on the team the last couple of years and it's cost us in playoffs. It certainly cost us in 2019 when our top receivers were 5'10 John Brown and 5'8" Cole Beasley, and Allen wound up directing critical throws to Duke Williams and Pat DiMarco in the playoffs 'cuz Brown and Beasley were being erased. So when I read stuff like " lacks play strength and release quickness to defeat a quality NFL press" and "lacks the physical tools to catch when contested and needs to prove he can hold up to a more physical brand of football" as well as "needs to improve efficiency and quickness getting off the ball. Lack of hand strength gets him bullied on contested catches......Takes reps off when he’s not expecting the throw to come his way......Fails to adjust his speed to ball placement consistently enough." I have a hard time seeing him as the right match of "need-adjusted BPA" or whatever it is being called now. Of course, as Beane has pointed out, there are different ways to fill needs, so if he falls to us and we've rated him as BPA because they have enthusiasm for his potential, So Be It but I'm going to have uncomfortable CJ Spiller flashbacks if the Bills trade up for the guy. I honestly can't pretend to know enough about college football to have a meaningful personal opinion about who we should draft, but I do have views about where the Bills current roster has shown itself lacking the previous season and likely to lack after new-league-year roster moves. If Kincaid can't get off the line as a TE, he probably shouldn't have been a first round pick... Edited April 24 by Mikey152
Logic Posted April 24 Author Posted April 24 Benjamin Albright, who was discussed earlier in this thread and who was all over Allen to Bills and Oliver to Bills early in those draft years, has released his one and only mock draft. He has Odunze sliding to 15 and the Colts taking him there. He has the Bills "trying and failing to trade up" and then drafting Xavier Worthy at 28. Personally, if Odunze DOES slide as far as 15 (which I don't see as likely), I can't imagine the Bills NOT trading up to get him. But it takes two to tango, and if they were to get shut out, Worthy is a fine consolation prize. 5 1 2
Allen2Moulds Posted April 24 Posted April 24 The one thing we have no idea about, is the intelligence level of these prospects. The physical attributes are great against man, but can they excell against zone. The elite WR1's can excell against both. I obviously don't have the answer to that, but I'm team LSU all the way.
The Jokeman Posted April 24 Posted April 24 3 hours ago, BillsVet said: Playing it safe most years is partly why they've ended their season with a Divisional Round loss three years running. Yet, the one time this regime went big on draft in 2018 they landed Josh. Credit to McBeane for being bold and positioning themselves to move up for JA. You can't do that every year, but there's a time and a place for it, notably QB and now WR. Fortune favors the bold. The NFL remains an offensive-driven league and I'm not sure how people keep missing this. You don't get as far with a pedestrian or even decent offense and a regular season excellent defense in the playoffs. The strategy hasn't worked in years. Other thing is to what's happening in the background. No, this isn't Whaley and Brandon using future picks they might never have had after RW passed away which has been pointed to in this thread. But it probably isn't lost on McBeane that they are selling PSL's, a new stadium is going in, and they need to win. I don't think Terry is as hands-on with the Bills, but that's a factor, even if distant. McBeane should take a calculated risk, if they deem the player worth it, because Josh deserves more than what is on the roster now. and as good as our offense was against the Chiefs, it was the Chiefs defense that stopped us when the game mattered or even I could say our lack of defense wasn't able to stop the Chiefs offense enough to win. I mean our offense put up the 2nd most points the Chiefs gave up all season in that playoff game and we still lost.
Beck Water Posted April 24 Posted April 24 8 minutes ago, Mikey152 said: If Kincaid can't get off the line as a TE, he probably shouldn't have been a first round pick... Oh, Dear. How many TE (first round or not) normally line up as X or Y receivers and find success there?
TOboy Posted April 24 Posted April 24 8 minutes ago, Logic said: Benjamin Albright, who was discussed earlier in this thread and who was all over Allen to Bills and Oliver to Bills early in those draft years, has released his one and only mock draft. He has Odunze sliding to 15 and the Colts taking him there. He has the Bills "trying and failing to trade up" and then drafting Xavier Worthy at 28. Personally, if Odunze DOES slide as far as 15 (which I don't see as likely), I can't imagine the Bills NOT trading up to get him. But it takes two to tango, and if they were to get shut out, Worthy is a fine consolation prize. Yeah if he gets that far you forget pick value and overpay to get the player. 1
Mikey152 Posted April 24 Posted April 24 1 minute ago, Beck Water said: Oh, Dear. How many TE (first round or not) normally line up as X or Y receivers and find success there? He doesn't have to line up as an X. He just has to be on the line on the opposite side of the formation from Knox. It can be anywhere.
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted April 24 Posted April 24 I’d be stunned if we don’t go up inside the top 7 or 8. I think we are going to try to go up and get Harrison 1
JohnBonhamRocks Posted April 24 Posted April 24 I really like Worthy as a prospect yet still share the real concern of whether he can beat press coverage on the outside. That’s not why you draft him though. You draft him for elite explosiveness that should result in big plays and opposing defenses having to keep their safeties back. Still, I am very on board with Worthy at 28 combined with either trading for a vet or drafting at 60/trading up from 128/drafting at 128 another bigger outside WR prospect (Javon Baker?) to pair with Worthy. Does the big outside boundary press coverage beating WR prospect have to come in the 1st round? I think not. We took Gabe Davis in the 4th.
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