Trev Posted July 20 Posted July 20 Front office didn’t like his attitude so they traded him with no plan. Now we have no #1, with a Dink dunk coordinator and Philip rivers 2.0. 2 Quote
LABILLBACKER Posted July 20 Posted July 20 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Trev said: Front office didn’t like his attitude so they traded him with no plan. Now we have no #1, with a Dink dunk coordinator and Philip rivers 2.0. Patrick didn't have a #1 last year. And if dink & dunk means we sustain drives and minimize turnovers then sign me up. We won 5 straight games without any contribution from Diggs so excuse me if I don't panic like some. Edited July 20 by LABILLBACKER Quote
Trev Posted July 20 Posted July 20 18 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said: Patrick didn't have a #1 last year. And if dink & dunk means we sustain drives and minimize turnovers then sign me up. We won 5 straight games without any contribution from Diggs so excuse me if I don't panic like some. Until the playoffs then we looked like a pop warner team. Temper your expectations for this year. Quote
NewEra Posted July 20 Posted July 20 3 hours ago, PBF81 said: Of course he didn't have an injury, but he didn't quit on Allen etc. He was relegated to secondary status. In our most important game, week 18 v. Miami, Diggs had a big game that would have been a career game. 2:29 ... Allen overthrew him for what would have been an 89-yard TD. 5:00 ... Diggs didn't quit https://youtu.be/5kHYGN4IOzg?si=vm0MUEqekQbzBrKg Again, we're going to find a lot of things out this season re: the McDermott-Way. There was clearly an agenda at work in there, a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. His teammates know it. That was our biggest game of the season at the time our biggest game was the playoff game vs KC in which he didn’t do anything (yet again vs KC in the playoffs) and had the biggest drop of his career and one of the biggest drops in team history. in this case, the McDermott-way = an NFL team functioning under a salary cap while thinking about more than just the upcoming season. I loved Diggs more than most- I respected his alpha personality and I thought it would help us win a SB. I was wrong. His production and play in the biggest games + his inability to control his emotions was too much for the locker room. His ex teammates aren’t going to dog him. They had a bond with him and respect the man. Josh has publicly stated his love for him and hasn’t said one negative thing about him……yet we now know that there was a lot going on behind the scenes and things had soured. More proof that his teammates are going to be adult about it and keep things pleasant. Some here happen to think that our players saying nice things about an ex teammate = our players are siding with the ex teammate. That’s a very naive way of thinking or simply fueled by their negative aura Quote
PBF81 Posted July 20 Posted July 20 6 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Diggs playoff track record is also not great. He had good games against a lot of the wild card teams. But it is very much true that he's been a total no show in all four of the Bills playoff exits to the Chiefs and Bengals. Diggs, numbers against Kansas City in both the regular and post season games are mind boggling bad. In the combined 7 games since 2020 he has had one good game which came in the 2022 regular season game: 10 receptions on 13 targets 148 yards and a TD The other six games he was held to under 30 yards in 3 out of the six. He had 77, 69 and 46 yards in the other 3 games. There isn't a player or coach on this team besides Allen that's even approached being consistent in the playoffs. Many would appropriately lay that at the feet of the head coach. Ironically, the most consistent player after Allen, and yet still far from consistent in that regard, was Davis. The facet of the team easily with the largest gap between regular season performance and playoff performance, is the Defense. 1 2 Quote
NewEra Posted July 20 Posted July 20 1 hour ago, Trev said: Front office didn’t like his attitude so they traded him with no plan. Now we have no #1, with a Dink dunk coordinator and Philip rivers 2.0. Just to be clear- You’re saying that Josh Allen is Philip Rivers 2.0? our #1 will be Dalton Kincaid- just like Mahomes #1 was Travis Kelce. Just like Brady’s #1 was Gronk. Just like Nick Foles’ was Zach Ertz. Only difference is Kincaid hasn’t had an opportunity to become great yet. He’ll have the opportunity this season. 8 of the last 12 SB champions didn’t have a 1000 WR- 2023 Chiefs- Rice- 938 2022 Chiefs - Schuster - 933 Yards 2019 Chiefs - Hill - 860 Yards 2018 Patriots - Edelman - 850 Yards 2017 Eagles - Jeffery - 789 Yards 2014 Patriots - Edelman - 972 Yards 2013 Seahawks - Tate - 898 Yards 2012 Ravens - Boldin - 921 yards 2 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted July 20 Posted July 20 (edited) 35 minutes ago, NewEra said: That was our biggest game of the season at the time our biggest game was the playoff game vs KC in which he didn’t do anything (yet again vs KC in the playoffs) and had the biggest drop of his career and one of the biggest drops in team history. I'll address the one relatively objective thing in your post, above. No argument with the exception that his drop in that game was hardly deliberate. That should be obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdyG_pPfSIU First of all, the hate for him precedes reason and fairness. If that had been Kincaid or Coleman this season, the talk would have been about it being good coverage and a slight underthrow. Diggs had his man beat and if Allen puts that ahead of him instead of so that he has to turn and slow down, giving coverage a chance to catch up, it's a TD. Yet, it's all Diggs' fault. Was it catchable? Absolutely Was it underthrown? Yes, slightly, but causing Diggs to have to slow down. Was there coverage? Yes, as a direct result of the underthrow. It's as clear as day. But more to the point, can you name a player, on offense or defense, that did do much of anything in that game? The short answer to that is no, you cannot. The max rushing yards by anyone (Cook) was 61, on a pathetic 3.4 yards-per-carry. The max receiving yards by anyone (Kincaid) was 45, on 9.0 YPR. Shakir was second with 44 yards on 6.3 YPR. That's the McDermott Way. Trying the run the ball (4.0 YPC on the game apart from Allen) while having Allen pick up 100% of the slack when it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out that KC's rushing D was hardly stout, ranking 25th in yards-per-carry allowed at 4.5, and 17th in rushing yards-per-game. Our RBs in that game were worse than most RBs that KC played that season. Same on defense, not one player stepped up. Not one sack. 2 total TFLs and 2 total QB Hits, no player with 2 of either combined. 1 PD all game. Pacheco, ... Pacheco, posted the best playoff rushing game of his 7 playoff game career, and his 5th best rushing game of his career overall, and it's not as if the teams against which he performed better had great rushing defenses, they did not. All four were ranked in the bottom quartile of rushing defenses in those seasons. KC posted TD scoring drives of 75 yards, 75 yards, and 65 yards, and FG scoring drives of 64 and 46 yards, with zero help from our offense. But yeah yeah, it's all Diggs' fault. None of the other 20 starting players (excluding Allen here) nor the coaches were at fault for any of it. Nah. LOL The writing is soooo on the wall re: McD. This season is going to be tumultuous. If Allen goes down, 100% exposure. We'd be one of the worst teams in the league with Trubisky at QB. Edited July 20 by PBF81 1 2 1 Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted July 20 Posted July 20 28 minutes ago, PBF81 said: There isn't a player or coach on this team besides Allen that's even approached being consistent in the playoffs. Many would appropriately lay that at the feet of the head coach. Ironically, the most consistent player after Allen, and yet still far from consistent in that regard, was Davis. The facet of the team easily with the largest gap between regular season performance and playoff performance, is the Defense. That's true. A player of Diggs salary and talent level has to show up more than 20% of the time in combined divisional/conference championship games. He's had one good game out of 5 and that was the Ravens game, his very first divisional/cc game with the Bills. He was 0-4 after that. 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted July 20 Posted July 20 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: That's true. A player of Diggs salary and talent level has to show up more than 20% of the time in combined divisional/conference championship games. He's had one good game out of 5 and that was the Ravens game, his very first divisional/cc game with the Bills. He was 0-4 after that. In fairness to me, I have never defended Diggs' playoff performances in general. At the same time, what people fail to connect the dots on, is when the entire team besides a single player, Allen, underachieves with regularity in the playoffs, and that includes McD and his entire staff by the way, and also are incredibly inconsistent, at best re: coaching, then how can the head coach possibly be exempt from the lion's share of the blame. That's an absurd proposition yet one that seems to stand generally speaking. It's beyond mind-boggling. This season is going to be incredibly enlightening. Edited July 20 by PBF81 Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted July 20 Posted July 20 Just now, PBF81 said: In fairness to me, I have never defended Diggs' playoff performances in general. At the same time, what people fail to connect the dots on, is when the entire team besides a single player, Allen, underachieves with regularity in the playoffs, and that includes McD and his entire staff by the way, and also are incredibly inconsistent, at best re: coaching, then how can the head coach possibly be exempt from the lion's share of the blame. That's an absurd proposition yet one that seems to stand generally speaking. It's beyond mind-boggling. I'd be surprised if many are given McD and the defense a pass. Everyone knows they are the main culprit holding the Bills back in the postseason. With regards to the offense in total, while yes, no one player besides Allen has stepped up consistently, the offense has for the most part has been consistently good or matched or bettered their regular season output with the exception of the Bengals game. In all three postseason games against the Chiefs, the Bills scored more points than they did in the regular season Bills vs Chiefs match ups. If the defense just plays to their regular season standard in one out of the those three games the Bills likely have a Super Bowl appearance. I think that is in part why the individual inconsistencies of the offensive personnel are overlooked. The Bills are still putting up points making those inconsistences a moot point. But it is a glaring issue when your #1 all pro WR consistently does nothing in the biggest games. 1 Quote
uticaclub Posted July 20 Posted July 20 3 hours ago, SectionC3 said: Two big drops that changed the trajectory of the franchise. KC playoffs last year, and the wind game ball that nobody talks about that was a dime for a TD. Nobody talks about the wind game because we threw the ball 30 times and never got out of the nickel defense. That was terrible in game management. 1 1 Quote
hondo in seattle Posted July 20 Posted July 20 (edited) 9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: Patrick didn't have a #1 last year. And if dink & dunk means we sustain drives and minimize turnovers then sign me up. We won 5 straight games without any contribution from Diggs so excuse me if I don't panic like some. I don't like the dink and dunk. Then again, Tom Brady got a lot of his yards that way. And defenses like to run 2-high shells to frustrate strong-armed QBs like Josh. In today's NFL, you have to be able to dink and dunk. Edited July 21 by hondo in seattle 2 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted July 20 Posted July 20 59 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: I'd be surprised if many are given McD and the defense a pass. Everyone knows they are the main culprit holding the Bills back in the postseason. Quite a few here defend him arduously. 59 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: With regards to the offense in total, while yes, no one player besides Allen has stepped up consistently, the offense has for the most part has been consistently good or matched or bettered their regular season output with the exception of the Bengals game. In all three postseason games against the Chiefs, the Bills scored more points than they did in the regular season Bills vs Chiefs match ups. If the defense just plays to their regular season standard in one out of the those three games the Bills likely have a Super Bowl appearance. Again, all because of and only because of Allen. He's a different player in the playoffs. 59 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: I think that is in part why the individual inconsistencies of the offensive personnel are overlooked. The Bills are still putting up points making those inconsistences a moot point. But it is a glaring issue when your #1 all pro WR consistently does nothing in the biggest games. Cook has sucked in the playoffs. No other offensive skill position player has done much of anything. He's averaged 13 carries for 48 yards and 1 rushing TD in four playoff games. 8 catches for 26 yards and nada in the TD column. That's crap. His only relatively decent game was against Pittsburgh and their below average rushing D. After that in three other games he's averaged 3.2 yards-per-carry. Shakir in four games has averaged 4 catches for 41 yards and a TD every other game. Kincaid, four catches for 52 yards and a TD every other game. Knox, three catches, 27 yards, and a TD every other game. We're putting up points because Allen becomes possessed in the playoffs. Not for any other reason. Take him out of the mix and we're likely 1-10 or 0-11 in the playoffs under McD. Quote
FLFan Posted July 20 Posted July 20 On 7/19/2024 at 3:29 PM, GunnerBill said: This is not true btw. Don’t interrupt a perfectly good self guided narrative. Quote
BillsFan2313 Posted July 20 Posted July 20 2 hours ago, PBF81 said: I'll address the one relatively objective thing in your post, above. No argument with the exception that his drop in that game was hardly deliberate. That should be obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdyG_pPfSIU First of all, the hate for him precedes reason and fairness. If that had been Kincaid or Coleman this season, the talk would have been about it being good coverage and a slight underthrow. Diggs had his man beat and if Allen puts that ahead of him instead of so that he has to turn and slow down, giving coverage a chance to catch up, it's a TD. Yet, it's all Diggs' fault. Was it catchable? Absolutely Was it underthrown? Yes, slightly, but causing Diggs to have to slow down. Was there coverage? Yes, as a direct result of the underthrow. It's as clear as day. But more to the point, can you name a player, on offense or defense, that did do much of anything in that game? The short answer to that is no, you cannot. The max rushing yards by anyone (Cook) was 61, on a pathetic 3.4 yards-per-carry. The max receiving yards by anyone (Kincaid) was 45, on 9.0 YPR. Shakir was second with 44 yards on 6.3 YPR. That's the McDermott Way. Trying the run the ball (4.0 YPC on the game apart from Allen) while having Allen pick up 100% of the slack when it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out that KC's rushing D was hardly stout, ranking 25th in yards-per-carry allowed at 4.5, and 17th in rushing yards-per-game. Our RBs in that game were worse than most RBs that KC played that season. Same on defense, not one player stepped up. Not one sack. 2 total TFLs and 2 total QB Hits, no player with 2 of either combined. 1 PD all game. Pacheco, ... Pacheco, posted the best playoff rushing game of his 7 playoff game career, and his 5th best rushing game of his career overall, and it's not as if the teams against which he performed better had great rushing defenses, they did not. All four were ranked in the bottom quartile of rushing defenses in those seasons. KC posted TD scoring drives of 75 yards, 75 yards, and 65 yards, and FG scoring drives of 64 and 46 yards, with zero help from our offense. But yeah yeah, it's all Diggs' fault. None of the other 20 starting players (excluding Allen here) nor the coaches were at fault for any of it. Nah. LOL The writing is soooo on the wall re: McD. This season is going to be tumultuous. If Allen goes down, 100% exposure. We'd be one of the worst teams in the league with Trubisky at QB. Quote
folz Posted July 20 Posted July 20 If the end of last year was due to Diggs' skills/speed declining, well then, better to get rid of him a season too early than a season too late, as the saying goes. If the end of last year was due to Diggs quitting on the team, or not giving full effort...even worse. Especially when the argument for your antics were that you just want to win so badly. If he didn't give his full effort, then he is saying getting traded was more important to him than trying to win a Super Bowl, so that blows the whole "I just want to win" thing out the window. Either way, it doesn't matter what he does with the Texans this year, it was still the right move for Buffalo. Some can blame Brady and the change of the offense for Stefon's decline down the stretch last year: His snap count did drop from 80.6% to 60.4% and his targets per game did drop from 10.2 to 7.5 under Brady. BUT... To me, the stat that shows it wasn't just the change of the offense, it was something with Stef (injury, decline, attitude---whatever) is catch percentage. In the first 10 games under Dorsey, Stefon had a 71.6 catch percentage. In the last 9 games (including the two playoff games) his catch percentage was 58.6. And he only had 1 touchdown over those last nine games. ONE. Those are not #1 WR numbers, by a long shot. His final catch percentage for the year was 66%. For comparison, here are some other top receivers catch percentages from 2023: Lamb, Collins, Allen, D. Smith, St. Brown, Moore, Pittman are all in the 71-72 catch % range; Hill, Chase, Robinson, Godwin have a 69% catch rate; Curtis Samuel, Jefferson, and Waddle are all around 68%. Whether he still has it or not is kind of a moot point. He was no longer a #1 WR on our team, in our system, so therefore not worth the money and headaches. I still like Diggs and all that he did for our team...he was a hell of a lot of fun to watch over the last four years. But it was time to move on, regardless what he does this year. Just for reference: Diggs' First 10 games (under Dorsey/2023) 10.2 targets/game, 7.3 catches/game, 86.7 yards/game, 0.7 TDs/game, 71.6 catch % Diggs' Last 9 games (under Brady/2023) 7.5 targets/game, 4.4 catches/game, 38.8 yards/gaame, 0.1 TDs/game, 58.6 catch %. Quote
Beck Water Posted July 20 Author Posted July 20 15 hours ago, Nephilim17 said: Sure. Not my exact point about his playoff production, or lack thereof, but in 2023 his last 100-yard game (on the nose, 100 yards exactly, so not exactly a performance for the ages) was October 15 against the vaunted Giants. His production in the following 2023 regular season games, in order as played, were as follows: 58 yards against the Pats 70 yards against the Bucs 86 yards against the Bengals 34 yards against the Broncos 27 yards against the Jets 74 yards against the Eagles 24 yards against our arch nemesis Chiefs 48 yards against the Cowboys 29 yards against the Chargers 26 yards against the Pats 87 yards against the Phins If you or others think he's going to get a lot better in his age-31 season make that bet. I think he'll have some reasonably big games in the first half of the season then fade. But past performance isn't always indicative of future results so I could be totally wrong. What I think? Well, some guys who actually watch a lot of film and get paid to do it said right out, "Diggs is not going to Houston to be the #1 WR". Houston has Nico Collins, who had 109 targets, 80 receptions, 1297 yds last season. 12 yds per target, 8 TDs, and a mind-blowing 53 1st downs. My guess is that what the Texans are hoping for with Diggs is a situation where they have 2 #1 receivers, or a #1 and a #1B, and teams can't just rotate all the coverage onto Collins. I don't think Diggs will be seeing 160 targets, but I also don't think he'll be seeing the same coverage he saw with the Bills. I would expect Diggs to come out the gate strong, motivated by having been traded, various chatter about him falling off, and also motivated to prove that he's a great teammate and the "noise" isn't true, so he ought to come out ready to "get open and catch the ball" as he did his first 3 years in B'lo. Like Jerry Hughes did when the Bills cut him at age 33 and he jumped from 2 to 9 sacks, from 1 to 10 TFL, from 7 to 10 QBH and doubled his tackles - I expect Diggs to have at least an initial resurgence from the end of last season. I don't expect him to be force-fed 12, 13, 16 targets a game, though. Whether he'll be able to sustain it all season after he gets hit a dozen times a game 6 weeks in a row, can't tell you, but if his targets are down because Collins is in truth the #1, his chances of sustaining and having something left in the tank at the end of the year are better. His chances of being unable to sustain the "I'm a nice guy, I'm a great teammate, My QB Right or Wrong" act will decrease if he's not being fed, though. Quote
Beck Water Posted July 20 Author Posted July 20 11 minutes ago, folz said: Some can blame Brady and the change of the offense for Stefon's decline down the stretch last year: His snap count did drop from 80.6% to 60.4% and his targets per game did drop from 10.2 to 7.5 under Brady. BUT... To me, the stat that shows it wasn't just the change of the offense, it was something with Stef (injury, decline, attitude---whatever) is catch percentage. In the first 10 games under Dorsey, Stefon had a 71.6 catch percentage. In the last 9 games (including the two playoff games) his catch percentage was 58.6. Just for reference: Diggs' First 10 games (under Dorsey/2023) 10.2 targets/game, 7.3 catches/game, 86.7 yards/game, 0.7 TDs/game, 71.6 catch % Diggs' Last 9 games (under Brady/2023) 7.5 targets/game, 4.4 catches/game, 38.8 yards/gaame, 0.1 TDs/game, 58.6 catch %. To be fair to Diggs, the drop in catch % and yards started before the change to Brady - in fact, arguably with the Giants game where Diggs caught 6 of 10 targets for 100 yds. And the Giants game was the game where Allen sprained his throwing shoulder. So we'd have to look at whether there was another factor - were Allen's targets to Diggs less catchable or uncatchable after the shoulder sprain? That kind of thing. TL;DR there are two parts to catch % and one of them is the QB, who was known to be injured and then struggling with mechanics, which likely impacted his accuracyl Quote
folz Posted July 20 Posted July 20 16 minutes ago, Beck Water said: To be fair to Diggs, the drop in catch % and yards started before the change to Brady - in fact, arguably with the Giants game where Diggs caught 6 of 10 targets for 100 yds. And the Giants game was the game where Allen sprained his throwing shoulder. So we'd have to look at whether there was another factor - were Allen's targets to Diggs less catchable or uncatchable after the shoulder sprain? That kind of thing. TL;DR there are two parts to catch % and one of them is the QB, who was known to be injured and then struggling with mechanics, which likely impacted his accuracyl Yes, we can't really tell without going back and looking at every throw to see if they were catchable, etc. But, if it were a Josh issue (or at least partly, due to injury/mechanics), I would expect that to have affected all of the receivers. Catch percentages post the Giants game last year (weeks 7-17 and the two playoff games): Stefon Diggs = 61.26% Dalton Kincaid = 77.00% Khalil Shakir = 86.5% Dawson Knox = 71.4% Gabe Davis = 47.00% Deonte Harty = 62.5% Trent Sherfield = 38.8% Josh didn't seem to have an issue when throwing to Kincaid, Shakir, or Knox. And those players had to deal with the offense adapting as well. Again, these numbers just make it obvious to me why we kept who we did and why we let the other guys go. Josh needs sure hands. And for whatever reason, Stefon wasn't that anymore. 61.26% over basically 70% of the season (including the playoffs) is not good for a #1 WR. 1 Quote
The Frankish Reich Posted July 20 Posted July 20 On 7/19/2024 at 2:12 PM, msw2112 said: Logic dictates that Diggs may have lost a little bit of a step. He's 30 and will turn 31 during the season and plays a skill position based on speed, twitch, and reaction time. That said, I don't think he fell off a cliff between week 6 and week 10 of last season and I believe he can still play at a high level. The OC and style of offense changed and he was no longer the focal point. They instead decided to run the ball more and distribute passes to a wider variety of receivers. When they did that, the team was much more successful. The totality of the circumstances led to the trade, which was a reasonable outcome for both parties: Age 30/31 (may have lost a bit of a step, even if negligible) Change in focus of offense Big cap hit coming next year Ability to recoup a 2nd rounder (the mid-round/late round picks involved being intentionally ignored) which may not have been available next year A volatile personality/potential friction with teammates & coaches and related distractions I was shocked by the trade when it happened, but, in retrospect, it was time. Right. He'll turn 31 during the season. Look at the great WRs throughout recent NFL history and you'll see that it is a rare one indeed who doesn't show diminished production in his 30s. An article from a fantasy football site, but the stats are the stats: https://www.fantasylife.com/articles/redraft/how-does-age-impact-wr-performance-in-fantasy-football#:~:text=At age 30%2C WRs can,to 40% below prime years. 1 Quote
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