Brand J Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Oh and to be sure, as long as the player doesn’t suffer a major leg injury, speed, like strength, is among the last to go. Doug Flutie said he could still run a 4.5 in his late 30s. Tom Brady was just filmed beating his 22 year old self in the 40 yard dash. Darrell Green, Don Beebe, James Lofton, Terrell Owens, etc., etc., etc. Diggs hasn’t lost his raw speed, he didn’t “lose a step.” Did he lose interest? I think we all know that answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerstAusGosheim Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 On 7/19/2024 at 2:46 PM, uticaclub said: Diggs’ problem was with the coaching staff. He got it in his head they weren’t going to win the Super Bowl with McDermott & got out. Let’s hope he’s wrong. After Sean's :13 blunder, followed by the mistake of giving a rookie OC the keys to the Allen/Diggs show, who could blame him? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 59 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said: After Sean's :13 blunder, followed by the mistake of giving a rookie OC the keys to the Allen/Diggs show, who could blame him? They also never replaced Brown & Beasley with productive WRs 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 16 hours ago, PBF81 said: I'll address the one relatively objective thing in your post, above. No argument with the exception that his drop in that game was hardly deliberate. That should be obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdyG_pPfSIU First of all, the hate for him precedes reason and fairness. If that had been Kincaid or Coleman this season, the talk would have been about it being good coverage and a slight underthrow. Diggs had his man beat and if Allen puts that ahead of him instead of so that he has to turn and slow down, giving coverage a chance to catch up, it's a TD. Yet, it's all Diggs' fault. Was it catchable? Absolutely Was it underthrown? Yes, slightly, but causing Diggs to have to slow down. Was there coverage? Yes, as a direct result of the underthrow. It's as clear as day. But more to the point, can you name a player, on offense or defense, that did do much of anything in that game? The short answer to that is no, you cannot. The max rushing yards by anyone (Cook) was 61, on a pathetic 3.4 yards-per-carry. The max receiving yards by anyone (Kincaid) was 45, on 9.0 YPR. Shakir was second with 44 yards on 6.3 YPR. That's the McDermott Way. Trying the run the ball (4.0 YPC on the game apart from Allen) while having Allen pick up 100% of the slack when it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out that KC's rushing D was hardly stout, ranking 25th in yards-per-carry allowed at 4.5, and 17th in rushing yards-per-game. Our RBs in that game were worse than most RBs that KC played that season. Same on defense, not one player stepped up. Not one sack. 2 total TFLs and 2 total QB Hits, no player with 2 of either combined. 1 PD all game. Pacheco, ... Pacheco, posted the best playoff rushing game of his 7 playoff game career, and his 5th best rushing game of his career overall, and it's not as if the teams against which he performed better had great rushing defenses, they did not. All four were ranked in the bottom quartile of rushing defenses in those seasons. KC posted TD scoring drives of 75 yards, 75 yards, and 65 yards, and FG scoring drives of 64 and 46 yards, with zero help from our offense. But yeah yeah, it's all Diggs' fault. None of the other 20 starting players (excluding Allen here) nor the coaches were at fault for any of it. Nah. LOL The writing is soooo on the wall re: McD. This season is going to be tumultuous. If Allen goes down, 100% exposure. We'd be one of the worst teams in the league with Trubisky at QB. The defense was playing third and even fourth stringers, and injured firsts gutting it out (Poyer and DaQuan most particularly). And yet they kept the Bills in the game the whole way, and were very effective late. But yeah, you're quite right, blaming it on only Diggs is flat-out ridiculous. An absolute joke. Allen himself, while he played a good game, had two chances to bust things open and didn't quite manage it either time. You can say it may have had something to do with his injuries forcing a change in throwing form. Maybe. But he still missed on two fantastic chances. The Chiefs were all over Diggs defensively. He should've caught that pass, but as you said, it was a tough play and a better Allen throw would have greatly increased chances for success. Ty Johnson played very solid, as did Shakir. Seven catches on nine targets and a TD, that's good play from Khalil. Same with Kincaid, who had 5 catches on 5 targets. It's not really possible to make catches on balls not thrown to you. On 7/20/2024 at 3:46 AM, uticaclub said: Diggs’ problem was with the coaching staff. He got it in his head they weren’t going to win the Super Bowl with McDermott & got out. Let’s hope he’s wrong. The guy who thinks that? That's you. Confusing your own unsupported opinion with fact is poor thinking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 16 hours ago, PBF81 said: I'll address the one relatively objective thing in your post, above. No argument with the exception that his drop in that game was hardly deliberate. That should be obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdyG_pPfSIU ONE- First of all, the hate for him precedes reason and fairness. If that had been Kincaid or Coleman this season, the talk would have been about it being good coverage and a slight underthrow. TWO- Diggs had his man beat and if Allen puts that ahead of him instead of so that he has to turn and slow down, giving coverage a chance to catch up, it's a TD. Yet, it's all Diggs' fault. Was it catchable? Absolutely Was it underthrown? Yes, slightly, but causing Diggs to have to slow down. Was there coverage? Yes, as a direct result of the underthrow. It's as clear as day. THREE- But more to the point, can you name a player, on offense or defense, that did do much of anything in that game? The short answer to that is no, you cannot. The max rushing yards by anyone (Cook) was 61, on a pathetic 3.4 yards-per-carry. The max receiving yards by anyone (Kincaid) was 45, on 9.0 YPR. Shakir was second with 44 yards on 6.3 YPR. That's the McDermott Way. FOUR —Trying the run the ball (4.0 YPC on the game apart from Allen) while having Allen pick up 100% of the slack when it doesn't work. It should also be pointed out that KC's rushing D was hardly stout, ranking 25th in yards-per-carry allowed at 4.5, and 17th in rushing yards-per-game. Our RBs in that game were worse than most RBs that KC played that season. FIVE- Same on defense, not one player stepped up. Not one sack. 2 total TFLs and 2 total QB Hits, no player with 2 of either combined. 1 PD all game. Pacheco, ... Pacheco, posted the best playoff rushing game of his 7 playoff game career, and his 5th best rushing game of his career overall, and it's not as if the teams against which he performed better had great rushing defenses, they did not. All four were ranked in the bottom quartile of rushing defenses in those seasons. KC posted TD scoring drives of 75 yards, 75 yards, and 65 yards, and FG scoring drives of 64 and 46 yards, with zero help from our offense. But yeah yeah, it's all Diggs' fault. None of the other 20 starting players (excluding Allen here) nor the coaches were at fault for any of it. Nah. LOL The writing is soooo on the wall re: McD. This season is going to be tumultuous. If Allen goes down, 100% exposure. We'd be one of the worst teams in the league with Trubisky at QB. lol- ONE- good grief man. TWO- “elite” WRs are only supposed to catch passes that are perfect. The ball travelled like 60 yards in the air…..it wasn’t perfect- they rarely are 60 yards downfield. Make a play. MAKE A ******** PLAY when your team needs you to make a play! Diggs. Yes it was 💯 Diggs’ fault. He dropped a pass that hit him in both hands. THREE- shakir had a solid game- Kincaid caught every pass to him. 5 of Diggs 8 targets were incomplete. 6 of the rest of the teams 31 targets fell incomplete. Think about that. FOUR- cmc had 22 rushes for 80 yards vs the same defense in the SB. FIVE- agreed- our defensive failures are usually the reason our season ends. We couldn’t stop them. It’s why I would’ve been ok firing McD after the season if we had hired Ben Johnson. In this case, it must be noted that the Injuries we had had an impact in not being able to stop them- ever. We had played them much better weeks prior with Bernard, Benford and a healthy Douglas. I agree- our offense wasn’t good vs KC- it was Josh carrying, partly because his WR1 couldn’t get open or catch passes. Partly because his WR2 had a boo boo and couldn’t play. Partly because Spags is a genius come playoffs sure- I’d love to have a better WR unit that what we have now, but the reality is, the move to trade Diggs helps us long term. It may hurt us this season…. But it could also help. Diggs and Brady were not a fit. The moment Brady was named OC, trading Diggs was likely the right move. Maybe that’s more of an indictment on Bradys inability to use him. Maybe not. We’ll see 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Just a generalized take on the situation: I feel like the primary driver of Diggs wanting out was Allen. Coaching may have played a role also but it's hard to get a read on how much. Diggs: Very, very detailed and driven receiver who wants very much to win a championship -Superb route runner/catcher -chooses situationally when to fight for extra yards or save himself for the next play -very focused on the quarterback's role in winning as proven in Minnesota and most likely Buffalo -multiple confrontational "arguments" with Allen -Both during his time here and after coaches and players discuss his will to win and that he's misunderstood because of it. -this to me points at poor communication skills. A bit arrogant also. Allen: Generational QB that we are lucky to have -Amazing ball talent. Probably the best this franchise has ever seen. -Very competitive on the field -Admitted he doesn't watch much game film. This is a huge indicator of the limits of his competitiveness -Coaches long tried to diversify his approach on offense. Taking the short throws, staying in the pocket longer -Forces balls, becomes predictable throwing patterns to the defense which leads to the turnovers. -I believe, despite his stats, this is why un-named execs call him "a bit overrated". Last year, it was clear the entire offensive focus shifted off of Diggs around mid-season. I thought it had to be an injury but that would have come out by now. The prime possibilities are a falling out between QB/WR, coaching changes or both. It was also easily apparent to me that Diggs gave up on the season. Body language, effort and attitude all took a dump. And yet he had his opportunity against KC and shanked it. Wants to be a winner but quickly turns into a petulant loser. I think Diggs felt Allen's game needed to be more diverse to win at the final levels but was divisive in communicating that. Diggs forced action with his petulance and I think it's to the benefit of all sides that he's gone. WRT Allen, he's proved he can dink and dunk and be a conservative QB when pressed. Last year, and maybe with Brady, they decided it's up to him now and let it go. Hopefully he incorporates it. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just in Atlanta Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Diggs was no longer the focus point of the new OC and that makes him upset. And his frustrations with the playoff losses — he was no hero in them either — went way too far and caused the team harm and made him look like a head case. Having said that, despite his late season drop-off, I don’t think he’s lost much of a step. He was fun while it lasted but it’s time to move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: The defense was playing third and even fourth stringers, and injured firsts gutting it out (Poyer and DaQuan most particularly). And yet they kept the Bills in the game the whole way, and were very effective late. Thanks for the post! But let's keep this on point. That's fine, but it does not mitigate the fact that no one stepped up. It was a prime opportunity for someone to have done so. And the greater point, this is standard on McD's playoff teams for all and whatever that implies. On a side note, we barely beat KC during the regular season, a win that had it been a loss would have resulted in us missing the playoffs, with KC having Pacheco out. So while it has nothing to do with this particular game, the injury argument is a double-edged sword. Similarly, we barely beat the Chargers who were missing Herbert and Allen, the only two offensive players worth a crap on their offense. ... again, off-topic. The point is that if we're going to start explaining our losses away due to injuries, then we also in the same broad-brush way, need to explain some of our eked-out wins away in the same vein. I'm not sure we want to do that, particularly last season where a STs TD let us beat Miami, Herbert/Allen out let us beat the Chargers, a D TD handed us our win v. NE, and no doubt another one or two. 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: But yeah, you're quite right, blaming it on only Diggs is flat-out ridiculous. An absolute joke. Thank you! That's the primary point here. 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Allen himself, while he played a good game, had two chances to bust things open and didn't quite manage it either time. You can say it may have had something to do with his injuries forcing a change in throwing form. Maybe. But he still missed on two fantastic chances. I say that it had a whole lot more than something to do, quite a lot to do in fact, with McD's inane complimentary football approach that insists that passing (with Allen as your QB that is) and rushing (with no RB of any significant consequence until further notice) needs to be balanced. 39 passing plays, 39 rushing plays That's not a coincidence. 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: The Chiefs were all over Diggs defensively. He should've caught that pass, but as you said, it was a tough play and a better Allen throw would have greatly increased chances for success. Allen was hardly perfect, either in that game or under Brady where on average he posted only better passing numbers than he did in 2019, and regarding the averages, only marginally so. Again, it's a huge season for the McDermott Way. But again, absolutely no one stepped up otherwise to propel us to a win. 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Ty Johnson played very solid, as did Shakir. Seven catches on nine targets and a TD, that's good play from Khalil. Same with Kincaid, who had 5 catches on 5 targets. It's not really possible to make catches on balls not thrown to you. Very solid is one thing, doing more than merely contributing while not even hitting average performance for a starting player or as the top players for that game is hardly doing something to propel the team to a win. After reading New Era's post after yours, I decided to take a look at every playoff game for comps. In 12 other games and therefore 24 other team performances, only twice did a team not put up the combined receiving yards that our two leading receivers in our game referenced here, with one being Jackson on Baltimore, who's awful in the playoffs. otherwise, only 7 of 24 other teams failed to put up a receiver that got equal to or more than Shakir and Kincaid combined here. That means 17 of 24 teams played notably better in that regard, even against KC, including Miami; and even the playoff dysfunctional Jackson played better vs. KC than Allen did with Flowers posting more than Shakir/Kincaid combined, with 115. In a few cases teams had multiple players that did that and in one case Dallas had three, all over 100 yards receiving. New Era mentions that McCaffrey "only" had 22 carries for 80 yards against KC in the Super Bowl, which granted, isn't impressive. But he also went 8 for 8 in receptions and posted 160 yards from scrimmage and 5.3 yards-per-touch. Our leading YFS player in this game was Cook with 82 yards, on 3.7 yards-per-touch. Here's the thing, in our two playoff games, we had the second and third lowest net passing yards of all 26 playoff performances, and the our passing performance in vs. the Chiefs was the 3rd fewest total passing yards with the Steelers playoff game having been the 6th fewest passing yards of all 26 performances. Here's the thing, this "balanced approach" is what McD has said he wants. But it's what McD wants, despite having a generational talent at QB with an arm that is arguably the best in NFL history. It's also why under Brady, in all 9 games including the playoff games, Allen's yards-per-game average was what would have ranked 14th on the season, 11th not including the playoffs. This is what McD wants. If he didn't it wouldn't be the case. That's what he instructed Brady to do. Either way, having bottom-dwelling passing production in the playoffs when we have Allen is ridiculous. That absolute worst that it should have been is something well above average. Edited July 21 by PBF81 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 2 hours ago, NewEra said: ONE- good grief man. Did you get a rock? 2 hours ago, NewEra said: THREE- shakir had a solid game- Kincaid caught every pass to him. 5 of Diggs 8 targets were incomplete. 6 of the rest of the teams 31 targets fell incomplete. Think about that. FOUR- cmc had 22 rushes for 80 yards vs the same defense in the SB. FIVE- agreed- our defensive failures are usually the reason our season ends. We couldn’t stop them. It’s why I would’ve been ok firing McD after the season if we had hired Ben Johnson. In this case, it must be noted that the Injuries we had had an impact in not being able to stop them- ever. We had played them much better weeks prior with Bernard, Benford and a healthy Douglas. As to THREE and FOUR, see my post to Thurm above. On FIVE, thanks! IMO this is the season that McD's methodologies are exposed as being both dysfunctional as well a ill-fitted to an offense led by Allen. 2 hours ago, NewEra said: I agree- our offense wasn’t good vs KC- it was Josh carrying, partly because his WR1 couldn’t get open or catch passes. Partly because his WR2 had a boo boo and couldn’t play. Partly because Spags is a genius come playoffs Well, other teams with lesser talent played better than we did offensively in the playoffs almost as a rule. It was our rushing D that did us in v. KC. Everyone lauds McD's Williams & Bernard, but our rush D predictably diminished and went from 5th to 15th in YPG allowed from '22 to '23, and from 14th to 28th in YPC allowed from '22 to '23. What's telling about that is that McD preaches balance in offense as if it's 1990, claiming that's how you win games (with the strongest armed QB in the league), while setting up his D to defend the run. At some point thinking like that can only be exposed. Your point on Spagnuolo appears to be at least somewhat trying to defer McD's incompetence off onto an embellishment of Spags. In his 16 playoff games with KC, his defenses have allowed 24+ points in half of them and over 30 in four of them. His average PA is 23 PPG, which is far from great, it's well below average on a season. In the playoffs it's in the average range. The average score of all teams in last season's playoffs was 24.7, but that doesn't include accounting for defensive of STs TDs, so it's somewhat lower than that after those are removed. Spags is good, but he's not so good that he should be shutting down Allen like he shuts down Jackson or Tagavailoa. 2 hours ago, NewEra said: sure- I’d love to have a better WR unit that what we have now, but the reality is, the move to trade Diggs helps us long term. It may hurt us this season…. But it could also help. Diggs and Brady were not a fit. The moment Brady was named OC, trading Diggs was likely the right move. Maybe that’s more of an indictment on Bradys inability to use him. Maybe not. We’ll see The whole Diggs thing is and continues to be poor planning. They fully knew that there were issues last season but outright lied to us about them. It doesn't matter why, they did. You say that Diggs and Brady were not a fit, indeed, they were not. But neither are Allen & McD. That's about as poor a fit as can exist. McD controls Brady. It's impossible to separate Brady and McD. For anyone denying this or even on the bubble re: it, that'll clear up this season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 On 7/19/2024 at 4:13 PM, Charles Romes said: He was attracting all of the attention from the opposition just like Edmunds before he left. He doesn’t drop the bomb v. the chiefs, he’s still here, win or lose that game. He’s entered the Sammy Watkins era of his career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerBillsFan Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Not trying to be a jerk, but camp starts this week. WTH are we talking about a former player in Diggs? We have tons to talk about with the players on this roster. 1 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: The guy who thinks that? That's you. Confusing your own unsupported opinion with fact is poor thinking. I’m hardly the only one that thinks on this board or in any bar. This is a message board where people share their opinions. Are mine always right? No, but they aren’t always wrong either. We have no idea what was said at meeting or behind closed doors. If Diggs was a problem, players would give short answers about the situtation instead of saying how important he was and how they liked playing with him. Edited July 21 by uticaclub 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uticaclub Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 20 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said: Not trying to be a jerk, but camp starts this week. WTH are we talking about a former player in Diggs? We have tons to talk about with the players on this roster. Because this thread is about Diggs, a major part of the team the last four years. Would you like to talk about Bass’ cap hit, our lack of reliable pass rushers or how the secondary will still be solid with no major drop off losing Poyer, White & Hyde? Edited July 21 by uticaclub 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 30 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said: Not trying to be a jerk, but camp starts this week. WTH are we talking about a former player in Diggs? We have tons to talk about with the players on this roster. This!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikePJ76 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 52 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said: Not trying to be a jerk, but camp starts this week. WTH are we talking about a former player in Diggs? We have tons to talk about with the players on this roster. Bobby Slowik (OC Houston) called Diggs "One of us" in an interview yesterday. Case closed, he wanted out and he wanted to go to houston and they granted him his wish. Now he is one of them. I can't wait till camp starts so we never have to hear about ol' steve again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVinci Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 Diggs gave up, period. He let his team down and the fans. I have no problem if you want to play somewhere else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP51 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) Diggs - top 5-10 receiver in his prime. Hyper competitive to the point it eventually consumes him and turns bad. Amazing caring teammate as long as he is engaged. Short attention span, has incredible faith in himself to a fault struggles to see the path to victory if he is not the center of it. Holds others on his team accountable to a fault... works well until he becomes frustrated, loses all empathy and falls into the bad section of his hyper competitive nature. In the end he struggles within himself to contain these things that make him great and it seems every few years he cant and explodes. I think the final straw was when the Bills went on the late season run and he was not as much of the offense as he liked. His ability to play a game changing role is amazing, his inability to see it doesnt always have to be him combined with some diminishing of skills ultimately sealed his fate. Edited July 22 by JP51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 On 7/20/2024 at 9:45 AM, Chaos said: Some coaches are better at coaching a wide range of personalities than other coaches. Bills have chosen for better or worse to reduce the eligible talent pool to “process guys”. It has worked with some success. It's one thing to move out an underperforming player and another to do it with a replacement on the roster who has produced in that role already. Their process, as it relates to higher-performing players that are disgruntled, seems to be just move the guy and deal with the ramifications later. It's not a stretch to think they just rolled the dice they'll get production from this group of slot receivers. When it doesn't happen that way, then what? Another in-season trade? Draft a guy in 2025? It never made much sense that, if McBeane wanted Diggs gone that you'd do it at the beginning of the league year and not wait weeks to move him. Possible they expected the market to yield more, which is odd considering that Diggs' contract they gave him would be difficult to deal for a higher return in 2024. They took the 2025 2nd and I'm sure that'll be part of whatever move they make in-season to find someone else when their slot receiver group struggles to produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 On 7/20/2024 at 9:19 PM, uticaclub said: They also never replaced Brown & Beasley with productive WRs Brown was productive for one season. Once Diggs got there, Brown was immediately irrelevant. Beasley soon faded as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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