Traditional vs. 'Modern Day' X Receiver

[EmotionallyUnstable]

9 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

But can they get off the press coverage in time for it to matter?

In spirit of the thread, I think this is where many folks get hung up. We like to discuss players as if the suit a particular position a la “he can play the X”…I’m just not so sure that labeling it as such nearly describes WHY people are making that comparison. 
 

I think the traditional roles of an X or Z or slot are often over cast onto specific skill sets (quickness, size, etc). As you said, idc what you call them, but can they win and win now? 
 

A guy like worthy isn’t on the table at 28 for the Bills IMO not because he “can’t play the X” but because he likely will not offer skills that they value such as blocking, winning of LOS etc 

[Richard Noggin]

25 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

In spirit of the thread, I think this is where many folks get hung up. We like to discuss players as if the suit a particular position a la “he can play the X”…I’m just not so sure that labeling it as such nearly describes WHY people are making that comparison. 
 

I think the traditional roles of an X or Z or slot are often over cast onto specific skill sets (quickness, size, etc). As you said, idc what you call them, but can they win and win now? 
 

A guy like worthy isn’t on the table at 28 for the Bills IMO not because he “can’t play the X” but because he likely will not offer skills that they value such as blocking, winning of LOS etc 

 

Love the first two paragraphs calling for more fluidity/flexibility in how we label WR traits, ESPECIALLY in light of how E-P passing concepts specifically seek to muddy up all that static, pedantic defining of individual roles. Each guy needs to be able to execute each route/responsibility in order for the offense to really hum. 

 

As for the bolded, I'm of two minds. On one hand, yes the Bills had fallen in love with WR pre-snap motion where Gabe Davis (or sometimes Sherfield) very obviously motions/reduces down into box with the intent to run block...and they need a guy who can still do that effectively. 

 

On the other hand, that was insanely predictable (think Davis' motion timing on own-goal-line backed up QB sneak against Vikings, or basically every other time he motioned to condense the formation -- minus that early TD play against Rams in 2022 NFL opener on the road at LA). There is a role for a run-blocking WR in this offense, FOR SURE. Might be part of why moving on from Diggs was palatable: he lacked that flexibility and physicality? I'd like to see what Brady's offense looks like with truly interchangeable WRs. WRs who can run after catch and put in an honest blocking effort while also being able to separate downfield. That's the E-P dream scenario. 

 

Ignoring all that, Xavier Worthy represents a skillset and downfield threat that our current WR room lacks. McD and Beane have both mentioned a need for "explosive" passing plays. He's better all around that many casual fans realize, and in my opinion, offers blue-chip traits (long speed and explosivity) with enough else (hands and separation skills) to attract a GM like Beane. Allen can benefit greatly from a downfield threat like Brown, younger Diggs, younger Sanders, sometimes Davis, and whoever is next. We're missing that piece just as much, if not more, than we're missing a WR who can block. 

 

Maybe Xavier Legette does both? 

Edited April 14 by Richard Noggin

[SoonerBillsFan]

55 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Love the first two paragraphs calling for more fluidity/flexibility in how we label WR traits, ESPECIALLY in light of how E-P passing concepts specifically seek to muddy up all that static, pedantic defining of individual roles. Each guy needs to be able to execute each route/responsibility in order for the offense to really hum. 

 

As for the bolded, I'm of two minds. On one hand, yes the Bills had fallen in love with WR pre-snap motion where Gabe Davis (or sometimes Sherfield) very obviously motions/reduces down into box with the intent to run block...and they need a guy who can still do that effectively. 

 

On the other hand, that was insanely predictable (think Davis' motion timing on own-goal-line backed up QB sneak against Vikings, or basically every other time he motioned to condense the formation -- minus that early TD play against Rams in 2022 NFL opener on the road at LA). There is a role for a run-blocking WR in this offense, FOR SURE. Might be part of why moving on from Diggs was palatable: he lacked that flexibility and physicality? I'd like to see what Brady's offense looks like with truly interchangeable WRs. WRs who can run after catch and put in an honest blocking effort while also being able to separate downfield. That's the E-P dream scenario. 

 

Ignoring all that, Xavier Worthy represents a skillset and downfield threat that our current WR room lacks. McD and Beane have both mentioned a need for "explosive" passing plays. He's better all around that many casual fans realize, and in my opinion, offers blue-chip traits (long speed and explosivity) with enough else (hands and separation skills) to attract a GM like Beane. Allen can benefit greatly from a downfield threat like Brown, younger Diggs, younger Sanders, sometimes Davis, and whoever is next. We're missing that piece just as much, if not more, than we're missing a WR who can block. 

 

Maybe Xavier Legette does both? 

I don't know much about the WR's in this drafts blocking skills.  But for the other attributes I have AD Mitchell, and Thomas JR as guys who can do that.  I presume they think Franklin and Tez might be able to do that as well. Or... they aren't sure and did extra work on both to see if they could.

 

I think Beane wants Thomas Jr, but realistically will get Franklin or AD.

[Richard Noggin]

10 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I don't know much about the WR's in this drafts blocking skills.  But for the other attributes I have AD Mitchell, and Thomas JR as guys who can do that.  I presume they think Franklin and Tez might be able to do that as well. Or... they aren't sure and did extra work on both to see if they could.

 

I think Beane wants Thomas Jr, but realistically will get Franklin or AD.

 

Agree on Thomas Jr as high ceiling trade-up target. AD Mitchell, on the other hand, is all blue-chip traits but Busch League process. Would think Legette's upside, resilience, and physicality make him a much better fit for what Brady wants to do. But based on what's been said about needing to add explosive plays to the offense, which we can pretty much all agree with, my money is on Worthy or Franklin. 

 

Problem is, the Bills need BOTH a big boundary specimen AND an explosive deep threat. Trading up for Odunze or Thomas could fill both holes at a premium cost, whereas what's left after them (omitting Mitchell due to his lack of football character) is an assortment of more specialized prospects. I think Worthy or Franklin make sense as downfield threats, and Legette, McConkey, and Polk make sense as more well-rounded prospects. Coleman is an outlier in that his analytics are AWFUL, but for some reason (including his best-ever combine gauntlet) he seems like a sleeper. Walker is a talented enigma who might not be a good football player at the next level. Pearsall has flashed serious ability, but his analytics don't project well outside at the next level. 

 

That still leaves, Corley, Cowing, Baker, Wilson, Wilson, McMillan, Rice, etc. 

 

In a potentially historic WR draft pool, the Bills NEED at least one top-3 depth chart prospect, if not two top-4 guys. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Agree on Thomas Jr as high ceiling trade-up target. AD Mitchell, on the other hand, is all blue-chip traits but Busch League process. Would think Legette's upside, resilience, and physicality make him a much better fit for what Brady wants to do. But based on what's been said about needing to add explosive plays to the offense, which we can pretty much all agree with, my money is on Worthy or Franklin. 

 

Problem is, the Bills need BOTH a big boundary specimen AND an explosive deep threat. Trading up for Odunze or Thomas could fill both holes at a premium cost, whereas what's left after them (omitting Mitchell due to his lack of football character) is an assortment of more specialized prospects. I think Worthy or Franklin make sense as downfield threats, and Legette, McConkey, and Polk make sense as more well-rounded prospects. Coleman is an outlier in that his analytics are AWFUL, but for some reason (including his best-ever combine gauntlet) he seems like a sleeper. Walker is a talented enigma who might not be a good football player at the next level. Pearsall has flashed serious ability, but his analytics don't project well outside at the next level. 

 

That still leaves, Corley, Cowing, Baker, Wilson, Wilson, McMillan, Rice, etc. 

 

In a potentially historic WR draft pool, the Bills NEED at least one top-3 depth chart prospect, if not two top-4 guys. 

Great post.  The more I think about it, beane saw Hill terrorize us for a few years.  Hill is only 195, Worthy 165.  So maybe he feels worthy can put on a few pounds and be fine?

Edited April 14 by SoonerBillsFan

[Dr. Who]

10 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Great post.  The more I think about it, beane saw Hill terrorize us for a few years.  Hill is only 195, Worthy 165.  So maybe he feels worthy can put on a few pounds and be fine?

I dunno, 30 lbs seems significant to me. I think Worthy is a talent. I'm worried about his size. If you get Worthy, you better find a way to get Legette, too, imo. (There are others, like Walker and Polk, that one could consider.)

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

I dunno, 30 lbs seems significant to me. I think Worthy is a talent. I'm worried about his size. If you get Worthy, you better find a way to get Legette, too, imo. (There are others, like Walker and Polk, that one could consider.)

Polk is a guy that really intrigues me.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Polk is a guy that really intrigues me.

He's the quiet fella everyone is forgetting. Except @NewEra

[Buffalo716]

15 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Love the first two paragraphs calling for more fluidity/flexibility in how we label WR traits, ESPECIALLY in light of how E-P passing concepts specifically seek to muddy up all that static, pedantic defining of individual roles. Each guy needs to be able to execute each route/responsibility in order for the offense to really hum. 

 

As for the bolded, I'm of two minds. On one hand, yes the Bills had fallen in love with WR pre-snap motion where Gabe Davis (or sometimes Sherfield) very obviously motions/reduces down into box with the intent to run block...and they need a guy who can still do that effectively. 

 

On the other hand, that was insanely predictable (think Davis' motion timing on own-goal-line backed up QB sneak against Vikings, or basically every other time he motioned to condense the formation -- minus that early TD play against Rams in 2022 NFL opener on the road at LA). There is a role for a run-blocking WR in this offense, FOR SURE. Might be part of why moving on from Diggs was palatable: he lacked that flexibility and physicality? I'd like to see what Brady's offense looks like with truly interchangeable WRs. WRs who can run after catch and put in an honest blocking effort while also being able to separate downfield. That's the E-P dream scenario. 

 

Ignoring all that, Xavier Worthy represents a skillset and downfield threat that our current WR room lacks. McD and Beane have both mentioned a need for "explosive" passing plays. He's better all around that many casual fans realize, and in my opinion, offers blue-chip traits (long speed and explosivity) with enough else (hands and separation skills) to attract a GM like Beane. Allen can benefit greatly from a downfield threat like Brown, younger Diggs, younger Sanders, sometimes Davis, and whoever is next. We're missing that piece just as much, if not more, than we're missing a WR who can block. 

 

Maybe Xavier Legette does both? 

It's 2024... There is a difference between verbiage systems and schemes now 

 

For all intensive purposes.. when someone says EP or West Coast... They're talking about the verbiage system... Not a specific scheme ... There still is a West Coast scheme but it is differentiated from the system

 

You can run any single play with West Coast verbiage or EP verbiage... The difference is how it gets out 

 

It's not like 50 years ago where the systems was built for specific schemes.. so a team using the corryell system was vastly different than a team using the West Coast system

 

Nowadays that's not the case 

 

Every single play in football has been ran.. it's over 100 years old ... You can run an uptempo vertical spread offense from the EP.. or a West Coast zone run scheme from the EP

 

South Right Clamp Fake 67 Slant Naked Right Zebra Slide Can 67 Slant... That will be a call in a West Coast system... Really wordsy , and a lot to memorize

 

F Right 72 Ghost/Tosser.. same call in EP 

 

It's a lot easier to get out.. which is why teams have gone to the EP.. it has nothing to do with the types of plays you can use but how you relays information 

 

Edited April 14 by Buffalo716

[Richard Noggin]

20 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Great post.  The more I think about it, beane saw Hill terrorize us for a few years.  Hill is only 195, Worthy 165.  So maybe he feels worthy can put on a few pounds and be fine?

 

10 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I dunno, 30 lbs seems significant to me. I think Worthy is a talent. I'm worried about his size. If you get Worthy, you better find a way to get Legette, too, imo. (There are others, like Walker and Polk, that one could consider.)

 

Hill was a bit of a RB in college, wasn't he? Definitely short, but not small. Well-built dude. 

 

Worthy is slighter for sure, but won't play in the NFL at that reduced, record-breaking (by design) weight of 165lbs. I'd guess he's closer to 175/180 his rookie season. 

 

Also agree that Polk is intriguing. Heck, so is McMillan for that matter. 

[SoCal Deek]

17 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's 2024... There is a difference between verbiage systems and schemes now 

 

For all intensive purposes.. when someone says EP or West Coast... They're talking about the verbiage system... Not a specific scheme ... There still is a West Coast scheme but it is differentiated from the system

 

You can run any single play with West Coast verbiage or EP verbiage... The difference is how it gets out 

 

It's not like 50 years ago where the systems was built for specific schemes.. so a team using the corryell system was vastly different than a team using the West Coast system

 

Nowadays that's not the case 

 

Every single play in football has been ran.. it's over 100 years old ... You can run an uptempo vertical spread offense from the EP.. or a West Coast zone run scheme from the EP

 

South Right Clamp Fake 67 Slant Naked Right Zebra Slide Can 67 Slant... That will be a call in a West Coast system... Really wordsy , and a lot to memorize

 

F Right 72 Ghost/Tosser.. same call in EP 

 

It's a lot easier to get out.. which is why teams have gone to the EP.. it has nothing to do with the types of plays you can use but how you relays information 

 

I just heard this on the radio the other day (there are a bunch of similar common misstatements) …and I’m not desperate to be the grammar police….but….the correct phrase is “for all intents and purposes”….not intensive purposes. 😉

[DCofNC]

On 4/13/2024 at 10:34 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

In spirit of the thread, I think this is where many folks get hung up. We like to discuss players as if the suit a particular position a la “he can play the X”…I’m just not so sure that labeling it as such nearly describes WHY people are making that comparison. 
 

I think the traditional roles of an X or Z or slot are often over cast onto specific skill sets (quickness, size, etc). As you said, idc what you call them, but can they win and win now? 
 

A guy like worthy isn’t on the table at 28 for the Bills IMO not because he “can’t play the X” but because he likely will not offer skills that they value such as blocking, winning of LOS etc 

 

Really well put.  I look at the current roster and have to think the ideal target is going to be a physical specimen.  Shakir and Samuel are smaller fast guys who can work inside or outside.  Kincaid will spend a lot of time in the middle, Cook will take throws inside, so who is the outside guy?  You can’t rely on Shorter, Hollis etc.  Not to knock the efforts last year, but letting D-Hop go to the Titans on that deal was a huge miss, he’s the perfect fit for what they need.  He has plenty of speed, size, vertical ability and most importantly, he catches everything.   The Bills really need an Anquon Boldin type who’s both physical off the line and fast enough to make you think twice about him down the field.  I don’t think they need the real burner.  Samuel or Shakir going down field is going to be plenty, they will run past any S in the league.  They have to connect on a few to get respect for the deep ball again. Just that respect is enough to impact the D.  Unless you get a guy with absolutely elite explosiveness like Hill, the smaller frames generally are manageable in the red-zone, jam them up, timing is gone, their impact is taken away in tight spaces.  The Bills have moved effortlessly for 3 years between the 20s, they were good in the RZ when Davis had his head out of his ass and Knox was a threat, why both of them disappeared is more than I know, but they did.  Then it became Josh waiting on Diggs to get open and the RZ became a problem.  With exactly zero people on this roster for anyone to fear, teams will be going after JA in the RZ if they don’t find a threat, I live Kincaid and he can be that guy, but he hasn’t proved he is Kelce 2.0.  So when is matters, where is the ball going?  Josh is going to play Superman again.  They have to do better.

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I just heard this on the radio the other day (there are a bunch of similar common misstatements) …and I’m not desperate to be the grammar police….but….the correct phrase is “for all intents and purposes”….not intensive purposes. 😉

I have a dozen concussions from my football career 

 

I'm glad I can remember where my car keys are 🤣