Are we really going to miss any of the departed players?

[Mr. WEO]

25 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Poyer was betrayed by an unappreciative fanbase who attacked his personal opinions, his charities, and his family. Then he took less money to fight through injuries to play the best statistical years of his career. But now that same fanbase calls him a traitor for going somewhere he's wanted and his personal opinions actually align with the city. 

 

Morse took paycuts and played through injuries. 

 

 

where/when did he :"take less money" than he could have gotten?

[Chandler#81]

17 minutes ago, twist_to_open said:

I don't have anything to substaciate it, but I can't help but think the organization made Davis a captain last year in the hopes of motivating him to be more engaged and not so much based on merit. Wondering if I'm out there on this or if anyone else questioned this.

This is a time-tested move. Namath was more interested in the spotlight than winning for the Jets and threw ridiculous game-losing interceptions. Weeb Ewbank decided to make him a team captain and his interceptions AND TD throws substantially dropped. Result? Upset the highly favored Colts to win the Super Bowl and give full credence to the eventual merger of the Leagues.

 

Obviously, this doesn’t happen a lot..

[SCBills]

36 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Poyer was betrayed by an unappreciative fanbase who attacked his personal opinions, his charities, and his family. Then he took less money to fight through injuries to play the best statistical years of his career. But now that same fanbase calls him a traitor for going somewhere he's wanted and his personal opinions actually align with the city. 

 

Morse took paycuts and played through injuries. 

 

This is quite a broad brush you’re painting with. 
 

The vast majority of this fanbase is vocal in their love of Jordan Poyer. 

[Scott7975]

Not saying it wasnt time to move on but I'm definitely going to miss the Hyde-Poyer combo.  Everyone is.  Same with Tre White.  I'll miss what Diggs brought to the table but not what he brought last year.  Morse seemed to get pushed back fairly easy in some games but he was solid center.  Our oline has sucked for years and now they are playing with it again. Center is the one spot that needs to be on point communication.  Ill never forget Morse going out and Josh fumbling the next snap.

[Mr. WEO]

24 minutes ago, GASabresIUFan said:

No team wins with a lousy O-line.  Having a bad Oline and a statute at QB is a recipe for disaster.  Their defense was elite last season and should be again this year.  

 

2013 Seahawks.

[Shortchaz]

By purging some older players we are swapping experience for athleticism in theory. We desperately need to find 2-3 more elite players. Our draft capital makes this a low probability proposition. We need to draft as many players as we can and hope one of them hits or target players and package picks to try and go get them. Hopefully by making room on the roster some of the young talent shines.

Edited April 6 by Shortchaz

[FLFan]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFan said:

The sports "Media" is already beginning their "analysis" that the Bills are done in 2024.  The Athletic (a NYT company) has an article today by the Jets beat writer about how the Jets have the most talented roster in the AFC East (their 80 year old QB not withstanding) and we all know how objective the NYT is.

 

https://theathletic.com/5388899/2024/04/04/jets-best-afc-east-roster-diggs-trade/

 

How much are we really going to miss any of the players released, traded or not re-signed this off-season?

 

Wide Receivers

Let's start with the elephant in the room.  The Bills moved on from both veteran boundary receivers including "superstar" Stefon Diggs.  Those two accounted for 2349 receiving yards last season and 15 TDs.  However, Davis caught only 56% of his targets and after week 6 Diggs caught only 61% of his opportunities.  In fact, Diggs, after week 6, was on pace to only put up 830 yards (on 145 targets) in a full season.  That would have put him 25 in NFL.  He also was clearly no longer a fit in a Joe Brady offense. 

 

On the other hand Kincaid and Shakir flourished after week 6.  Kincaid was inactive in week 6, but over the next 13 weeks (including the playoffs) his usage increased and he paced for 860 yards over a 17 week season.  His usage in his second season should increase further with Diggs gone.  Shakir's game also changed after week 6.  In the first 6 weeks last season, Shakir averaged less than 1 target per game.  1 target!  After week six, Shakir was on pace for 845 yards (on only 68 targets).  

 

I also researched how the average WR drafted from 20-40 over the last 5 years produced in his rookie season.  The average was about 660 yards.  There were some stars like Jefferson, Tee Higgins, and Jordan Addison and some duds, but for the most part most were solid to good.  I'm confident that Beane & Co will find someone in the draft to help the Bills stretch the field with their 1st pick, something we didn't have last season.

 

In addition we added proven slot receiver Curtis Samuel who should flourish in Brady's offense and we aren't going to miss the departed Harty or Sherfield at all.

 

Defensive Line

Are we really going to miss Phillips, Lawson, Ford or Settle? No didn't think so.  That leaves Leonard Floyd.  No BS, we are going to miss him.  The hope here is that Miller can capture at least some of his old form (he did look better in the playoffs) and that he and Epenesa can be effective enough to allow Rousseau to go back to his natural position and make up for the loss of Floyd.  My hope is that they draft a edge rusher in the 2nd rd to help make up for the loss.

 

Offensive line

Out with Bates and Morse.  Considering Bates played all of 35 snaps, I don't think he'll be missed.  Morse on the other hand has been the Bills center for the last 5 years and has done a very good job, but at 32 it is a reasonable question to ask how much he has left in the tank.  Beane solution is moving McGovern to center and creating a competition for the guard spot to returnee David Edwards (148 snaps last season - the most by a Bills backup OL) and presumably veteran La'el Collins. Collins has started 86 of 89 career games as a rt, but missed last season with injuries.  

 

Running back

Lat Murray, Hines and Harris are gone.  They won't be missed.  Cook became a star last season. Ty Johnson also returns and was very effective last season in limited reps.  The Bills will likely add another back at some point

 

Safety

Out with Hyde and Poyer and in with Mike Edwards and Rapp becomes a starter.  This is a slight downgrade based on last year's grades, but it was time to move on from Hyde and Poyer.  

 

Corners and Linebackers

White and Dodson are the big name departures, but given White's injury history and the return to health of pro bower Matt Milano, the play of Taron Johnson, Douglas, Benard and Benford, I don't think we'll miss either player.

 

On paper the Bills are slightly downgraded.  We have fair questions at WR, OL, DL and safety.  However, I'm not worried about the wide receivers.  To me, removing DIggs and Davis has opened the opportunity for Allen to longer have to worry about Diggs getting targets.  He can now focus solely on who is open.  At safety, the declines in Poyer and Hyde were very noticeable and Rapp and Edwards should give us at least when the vets did.   I'm also not worried about the OL.  Torrence and Brown should continue to improve and McGovern proved he has a very capable interior lineman last season.  The only loss the really worries me is Floyd. 

 

Despite the downgrades on paper, I can see the Bills actually improving next season.  I think the offense will be better and more consistent.  Besides Allen and Dawkins, the heart of the offense are all young players in Brown, Torrence, Shakir, Kincaid and Cook who should continue to improve.  

 

On defense it's much the same story.  Oliver, Milano and T Johnson are the core, but they received a significant lift from improving kids Benford, Benard, and Rousseau.  

 

 

The way the Athletic works is that they assign beat writers for specific teams that have broad enough interest.  The Bills have a very good beat writer assigned, Joe Buscaglia.  If you want a fair balanced overview of the Bills and their chances, and don't want to be triggered by opposing viewpoints, read his stuff.  It’s not political bias, it’s sports. 

[GASabresIUFan]

6 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I subscribe to the Athletic and thought the article was fair when you look at the results over the entire season.  The last 7 weeks gave us hope in certain areas like WR with guys like Shakir and Kincaid at TE, but we don't yet know if its sustainable over and entire year.  We came in 2nd and he added a disclaimer "If we grade the quarterback position on a curve, the Bills would bring it closer, clearly."  As to your concerns on the O-line, he actually gave us the best grade in the division there.

 

Having said that overall I'm not that worried about the players lost either, biggest concern right now to me is WR.  While Diggs struggled at the end, he still does make the defense game plan for him.  Second position is to me is safety.

 

Below is the final rankings form the article.  Most of the area where the Jets were ranked better was on defense BTW

 

My problem with the article is that position groups are not equally as important to a team success and shouldn't be graded that way.  IMHO QBs and OL are significantly more important to a team's success on offense then any skill group. You can have all the talent in the world at WR, but without a good QB and an Oline to keep him upright, the WR is wasted.  Having pro-bowler Barkley at RB hasn't done the NYG much good because they lack a QB and Oline.  

 

Also he doesn't account for the difference in quality within the position group.  Maybe the best position group in the division is RB.  Hall is great, Cook is excellent, the tandem in Miami is very good as is Stevenson (when healthy).  IMHO, I'd grade on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being the best, I'd grade Hall a 1, Cook a 2, the Miami tandem a 2 or 3 and Stevenson a 3 or 4.  However when looking at QB and using the same scale, I'd give Allen a 1, Tua a 3 or 4, Rodgers a 4 (if healthy) and whomever is playing in NE a 10.

 

Admittedly accounting for those variables makes writing the article harder, but it would make it more accurate. 

[akinko_kd]

"Media" must write articles and get people to read them in order to make money.
At this stage, when no draft has been done, it is as if we don't know anything.
But they have to write the article anyway.

[Success]

Floyd basically disappeared at the end of the season.  Diggs was playing more like a #3 option.  Tre was one of our best players - but has hardly been on the field the last few years.

 

Hyde & Poyer  - love 'em both - were both noticeably slower.  We may actually be better in the secondary now.

 

Morse will be missed.  But not if McGovern can step up.

 

So, my answer would be "no."  

 

[GASabresIUFan]

5 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

By purging some older players we are swapping experience for athleticism in theory. We desperately need to find 2-3 more elite players. Our draft capital makes this a low probability proposition. We need to draft as many players as we can and hope one of them hits or target players and package picks to try and go get them. Hopefully by making room on the roster some of the young talent shines.

The question of Elite players keeps coming up and is a fair question.  Besides Milano (when healthy) and Taron Johnson, who is the elite player on the Bils defense? Trying to be objective, I think the answer is potentially Benard.  Being "elite" is also a very hard question.  Neither Hyde or Poyer were considered elite when the Bills signed them.  

 

On offense, I think we have elite players.  Allen, Cook, Dawkins, and Kincaid are all elite players.  Torrence and possibly Shakir have that potential as well if they build on last season.  Cook finished 4th in rushing and 3rd in scrimmage yards by a RB last season.  That's elite production.  

30 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We aren’t going to miss them that much, because they are diminished players. But we are going to miss the players they used to be quite a lot.

That's very fair, especially Hyde, Poyer and Diggs.

[SCBills]

If we’re comparing the team we see in September vs the team we saw last half of the season.. no, probably not many downgrades this coming season.  Josh Allen being allowed to take over games carried us… again. 

 

OL:  I have the utmost faith in Kromer.  He’s one of the best OL coaches in this league. Morse is good, but did have trouble anchoring against certain players & certain alignments.  I expect Torrence and Brown to really become a strong tandem on the right side. 
 

DL:  It’s really an unknown.  I like our top 3 DT’s more than last year.  Jones fully healed with Oliver and we have more size & physicality than last years rotation in Johnson.   EDGE is dependent upon Von, but Floyd became a complete non-factor last half of the year anyway. 
 

LB:  Massive upgrade with Milano coming back, year 3 of Bernard and Year 2 of Williams. 
 

CB:  Douglas, Benford and Johnson is a very good group, and I’m probably higher on Elam than some.  Think a new coach should help him. 
 

S:  Slight downgrade on paper from what Hyde/Poyer were, but think Edwards could flourish here and Rapp came on strong down the stretch before the injury. 
 

RB:  We’re solid there 

 

QB:  Allen speaks for himself and we probably upgraded at backup.  
 

TE: One of the best rooms in the NFL and I think many expect Kincaid to become a household name this year. 
 

WR:  TBD.  There are plenty of ways that this years room could be better than last years.  We shall see…

 

Impact Players:

 

As has been the case in Allen’s career, it doesn’t look like enough.

 

Two years ago we entered the season with Allen, Diggs and Von (pre-injury).   That’s where we need to be every year.

 

This year… Allen.  Maybe Kincaid.  

 

Which is why WR1 could really use an impact player via Draft or Trade. 
 

Edited April 6 by SCBills

[MJS]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

Poyer was betrayed by an unappreciative fanbase who attacked his personal opinions, his charities, and his family. Then he took less money to fight through injuries to play the best statistical years of his career. But now that same fanbase calls him a traitor for going somewhere he's wanted and his personal opinions actually align with the city. 

 

Morse took paycuts and played through injuries. 

 

That wasn't the best statistical year of his career. That would be 2021. 2022 was good too, apart from missing games. 2023 was his least impactful year, although he was asked to do some different things.

[JerseyBills]

that Douglas trade was awesome 

We also get Milano back. 

 

Not really to concerned 

[Mat68]

What they were absolutely.  What they are now probably not.  Thats why they made the moves they did.  They were the pillars for ending the streak for the most part.  They are either battling injuries or north of 30 now. 

[vincec]

58 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

sure, they might.  That's not the topic.

 

Outside of O-line (assuming flat earther QB can play), the Jets are loaded.

It’s amazing to me how much love the Jets consistently get despite having just 1 winning season over the last 13 years and none for the last 8. Maybe we should wait until they make the playoffs for once before they are anointed champions.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, vincec said:

It’s amazing to me how much love the Jets consistently get despite having just 1 winning season over the last 13 years and none for the last 8. Maybe we should wait until they make the playoffs for once before they are anointed champions.

 

link?

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFan said:

The sports "Media" is already beginning their "analysis" that the Bills are done in 2024.  The Athletic (a NYT company) has an article today by the Jets beat writer about how the Jets have the most talented roster in the AFC East (their 80 year old QB not withstanding) and we all know how objective the NYT is.

 

https://theathletic.com/5388899/2024/04/04/jets-best-afc-east-roster-diggs-trade/

 

How much are we really going to miss any of the players released, traded or not re-signed this off-season?

 

Wide Receivers

Let's start with the elephant in the room.  The Bills moved on from both veteran boundary receivers including "superstar" Stefon Diggs.  Those two accounted for 2349 receiving yards last season and 15 TDs.  However, Davis caught only 56% of his targets and after week 6 Diggs caught only 61% of his opportunities.  In fact, Diggs, after week 6, was on pace to only put up 830 yards (on 145 targets) in a full season.  That would have put him 25 in NFL.  He also was clearly no longer a fit in a Joe Brady offense. 

 

On the other hand Kincaid and Shakir flourished after week 6.  Kincaid was inactive in week 6, but over the next 13 weeks (including the playoffs) his usage increased and he paced for 860 yards over a 17 week season.  His usage in his second season should increase further with Diggs gone.  Shakir's game also changed after week 6.  In the first 6 weeks last season, Shakir averaged less than 1 target per game.  1 target!  After week six, Shakir was on pace for 845 yards (on only 68 targets).  

 

I also researched how the average WR drafted from 20-40 over the last 5 years produced in his rookie season.  The average was about 660 yards.  There were some stars like Jefferson, Tee Higgins, and Jordan Addison and some duds, but for the most part most were solid to good.  I'm confident that Beane & Co will find someone in the draft to help the Bills stretch the field with their 1st pick, something we didn't have last season.

 

In addition we added proven slot receiver Curtis Samuel who should flourish in Brady's offense and we aren't going to miss the departed Harty or Sherfield at all.

 

Defensive Line

Are we really going to miss Phillips, Lawson, Ford or Settle? No didn't think so.  That leaves Leonard Floyd.  No BS, we are going to miss him.  The hope here is that Miller can capture at least some of his old form (he did look better in the playoffs) and that he and Epenesa can be effective enough to allow Rousseau to go back to his natural position and make up for the loss of Floyd.  My hope is that they draft a edge rusher in the 2nd rd to help make up for the loss.

 

Offensive line

Out with Bates and Morse.  Considering Bates played all of 35 snaps, I don't think he'll be missed.  Morse on the other hand has been the Bills center for the last 5 years and has done a very good job, but at 32 it is a reasonable question to ask how much he has left in the tank.  Beane solution is moving McGovern to center and creating a competition for the guard spot to returnee David Edwards (148 snaps last season - the most by a Bills backup OL) and presumably veteran La'el Collins. Collins has started 86 of 89 career games as a rt, but missed last season with injuries.  

 

Running back

Lat Murray, Hines and Harris are gone.  They won't be missed.  Cook became a star last season. Ty Johnson also returns and was very effective last season in limited reps.  The Bills will likely add another back at some point

 

Safety

Out with Hyde and Poyer and in with Mike Edwards and Rapp becomes a starter.  This is a slight downgrade based on last year's grades, but it was time to move on from Hyde and Poyer.  

 

Corners and Linebackers

White and Dodson are the big name departures, but given White's injury history and the return to health of pro bower Matt Milano, the play of Taron Johnson, Douglas, Benard and Benford, I don't think we'll miss either player.

 

On paper the Bills are slightly downgraded.  We have fair questions at WR, OL, DL and safety.  However, I'm not worried about the wide receivers.  To me, removing DIggs and Davis has opened the opportunity for Allen to longer have to worry about Diggs getting targets.  He can now focus solely on who is open.  At safety, the declines in Poyer and Hyde were very noticeable and Rapp and Edwards should give us at least when the vets did.   I'm also not worried about the OL.  Torrence and Brown should continue to improve and McGovern proved he has a very capable interior lineman last season.  The only loss the really worries me is Floyd. 

 

Despite the downgrades on paper, I can see the Bills actually improving next season.  I think the offense will be better and more consistent.  Besides Allen and Dawkins, the heart of the offense are all young players in Brown, Torrence, Shakir, Kincaid and Cook who should continue to improve.  

 

On defense it's much the same story.  Oliver, Milano and T Johnson are the core, but they received a significant lift from improving kids Benford, Benard, and Rousseau.  

 

 

Your post is well thought out.

 

I disagree with you on Safety. Losing Poyer & Hyde is a major downgrade. Yes, it was time to move on from them, however Edwards has mostly been a back-up and is a big question mark. Rapp I thought played better in the second half of the season. So there is some concern at this position. I do think that we will draft a Safety.

 

At Defensive End, losing Floyd was big. Glad that Epenesa was kept and I like Casey Toohill as a situational pass rusher. The draft is thin at this position, so it won't be easy finding a top grade player. The Bills could find a veteran late this year as they did with Floyd.

 

Wide Receiver is definitely an issue. The Bills pretty much have no choice but to take a receiver with their first pick. While Diggs declined late last year, be it from talent or injury, his leadership(he was a captain) will be missed. I love the addition of Samuel, and I believe that Shakir will continue to improve. I don't like to rely so much on rookies, despite how talented they are.

[frostbitmic]

Poyer, Hyde, White, Morse, Diggs ... A lot of great football played by these guys wearing a Buffalo uni.

 

They'll be missed but they never won a Championship, maybe the next generation guys will.

[<bills4life>]

1 hour ago, BBFL said:

3-4 years ago? I’d even take the player we saw last year even if it was primarily the first 9 weeks. That’s just me though. 

Not for that kind of money I wouldn’t.  Add on being a total pain in the a$$.