SoTier Posted April 6 Posted April 6 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said: It's not troll at all. Don't make me do all kinds of research to show that basically we spent more on big contracts under Beane with little production than anyone. And the whole point of free agents is they are a known quantity. You want to argue draft is a crapshoot ok. But these free agents deals are the way of the leveon bell signing. So why does he get a pass? Why are the homers so mad I pointed out some failures? This makes the Mario Williams deal look like a home run. I'd love to eat crow here. I hope he totally just seahawked the Texans Russel Wilson style with the diggs move, but thats pretty unlikely. Why do you get a pass on doing "all kinds of research"? I did "all kinds of research" for the facts I presented. Back up your claims with facts, and maybe your opinions will get more respect. FTR, Doug Whaley would have drafted Mahomes but he lost the power struggle that occurred after the Bills hired McDermott, and didn't have control of the 2017 draft. He was fired a day or two after that draft. Unfortunately, Mahomes or Allen, neither would have become the QB he is today because the Bills under Russ Brandon put the emphasis on putting butts in the seats rather than winning football games. They had bottom feeder coaches because they wouldn't pay top money to coaches. Allen's first QB coach was a guy who had no real experience developing a QB. After Brandon was fired and Beane promoted, the Bills hired Ken Dorsey to develop Allen. Mario Williams was signed for the same reason that Terrell Owens was signed in 2009: to put butts in the seats when fans were souring after more losing seasons. Edited April 6 by SoTier Quote
mjt328 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 What exactly does he need a "pass" for? What exactly has "come to roost? Did I slip into a coma and miss the Bills failing to make the playoffs? Did we have a losing record last year? I understand the frustration over not getting a Super Bowl. But the way Bills fans talk about this franchise is becoming more embarrassing by the day and totally disconnected from reality. By every standard of measure, Brandon Beane is one of the top GMs in the entire NFL. If you want to base everything on Super Bowl wins, only three teams (Chiefs, Rams, Bucs) have succeeded in the past 5 seasons. If you want to throw in Conference championships, then you can add the 49ers, Eagles and Bengals. That's a total of 6 teams (out of 31) who have arguably had more success than Buffalo, and more than half of them haven't been able to sustain a high level of play for more than a few consecutive seasons. In the same time span, we are 2nd in the entire NFL in regular season wins and tied for 4th in playoff wins. All these people are pitching a fit about us losing Stefon Diggs. OK fine. It always stinks losing a good player, so I get it. But now the complaints are that Beane shouldn't have given Diggs an extension in the first place? I mean what? This is revisionist history if I've ever heard of it. Nobody and I mean nobody was complaining about that contract two seasons ago. Somehow we would have been better off just letting his contract expire? And let's also completely ignore that we got a (likely very high) 2nd Round draft pick in return, when Keenan Allen - roughly the same age and production level - went for a 4th Rounder. And just a couple years ago, a much younger Amari Cooper went for a measly 5th Rounder. The only high D-Line pick that hasn't worked out is Boogie Basham. Ed Oliver is a monster on the inside and extremely underrated. Greg Rousseau is a good starter and would be so on most NFL teams. AJ Epenesa is a solid rotational player. Harrison Phillips is also a good starter for the Vikings. We have gotten very good production from signing Daquan Jones and last year with Leonard Floyd on a bargain contract. For all the criticism, Von Miller was playing at a Pro Bowl level until the ACL tear. Crap, even Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson have done well on cheap deals on the backend of our roster. Again, if your only standard is being able to chase down and sack Patrick Mahomes in the playoffs, then you need to watch more football. We could have TJ Watt and Myles Garrett on the edge, and he would still manage to make plays. There isn't a single GM in the league who doesn't make mistakes. Howie Roseman is often called the best GM in the entire NFL. He traded up for Carson Wentz, and had whopper 1st Round busts like Jalen Reagor, Nelson Agholor, Andre Dillard and Marcus Smith. The 49ers/John Lynch traded a fortune to get Trey Lance, and also have 1st Round busts like Javon Kinlaw and Solomon Thomas on his resume. What do you think about the Chiefs 2023 draft class and 1st Rounder Felix Anudike-Uzamah (zero starts), or them spending a 1st Rounder on a running back (Clyded Edwards-Helaire) a few years ago? For every bad move Beane has made, you can counter it with something good. Kaiir Elam doesn't work out? Oh well, he ended up nabbing Christian Benford on Day 3. Poor choice in drafting Zack Moss? He makes it up with James Cook a season later, and our running game doesn't miss a beat. At the end of the day, that's what counts. The final roster he puts together, and how it compares versus the rest of the league. Not nitpicking every individual miss. If the team ends up falling apart this year because of cap issues and poor decisions, then it's fair to let Beane have it. But as of today, anyone picking the Bills to finish behind the Dolphins/Jets, miss the playoffs, etc., really has no idea what's going to happen. I heard the same cries last year, and we finished as AFC Champs again. 2 Quote
Sharky7337 Posted April 6 Author Posted April 6 26 minutes ago, SoTier said: Why do you get a pass on doing "all kinds of research"? I did "all kinds of research" for the facts I presented. Back up your claims with facts, and maybe your opinions will get more respect. FTR, Doug Whaley would have drafted Mahomes but he lost the power struggle that occurred after the Bills hired McDermott, and didn't have control of the 2017 draft. He was fired a day or two after that draft. Unfortunately, Mahomes or Allen, neither would have become the QB he is today because the Bills under Russ Brandon put the emphasis on putting butts in the seats rather than winning football games. They had bottom feeder coaches because they wouldn't pay top money to coaches. Allen's first QB coach was a guy who had no real experience developing a QB. After Brandon was fired and Beane promoted, the Bills hired Ken Dorsey to develop Allen. Mario Williams was signed for the same reason that Terrell Owens was signed in 2009: to put butts in the seats when fans were souring after more losing seasons. Whether or not you respect me means nothing to me. Lions don't concern themselves with the opinions of sheep. 1 Quote
Mr. WEO Posted April 6 Posted April 6 15 minutes ago, SoTier said: Why do you get a pass on doing "all kinds of research"? I did "all kinds of research" for the facts I presented. Back up your claims with facts, and maybe your opinions will get more respect. FTR, Doug Whaley would have drafted Mahomes but he lost the power struggle that occurred after the Bills hired McDermott, and didn't have control of the 2017 draft. He was fired a day or two after that draft. Unfortunately, Mahomes or Allen, neither would have become the QB he is today because the Bills under Russ Brandon put the emphasis on putting butts in the seats rather than winning football games. They had bottom feeder coaches because they wouldn't pay top money to coaches. Allen's first QB coach was a guy who had no real experience developing a QB. After Brandon was fired and Beane promoted, the Bills hired Ken Dorsey to develop Allen. Mario Williams was signed for the same reason that Terrell Owens was signed in 2009: to put butts in the seats when fans were souring after more losing seasons. Who did Dorsey "develop" before Allen? Former OROY and already 2 time Pro Bowler Cam Newton? Which of the Bills current coaching staff IS getting paid "top money"? (hint: McD isn't in the top 10). What was the big attendance bump with Mario Williams? TO? You have some research to do... Quote
SoTier Posted April 6 Posted April 6 23 minutes ago, FireChans said: I forgot because it was a midnight post. Even adding in TE’s 2020 clears by a mile. Sorry, but Kincaid, Knox, and Morris > Knox, Kroft, and Becker. However, the OL in 2020 wasn't nearly as good as the 2023 OL, and the even without Morse, the 2024 OL is currently better. No offense is successful without a decent OL. Because of the improvement in the OL and the TEs, the Bills have the ability to field a versatile offense in 2024 even if none of their WRs puts up huge individual numbers. Quote
SCBills Posted April 6 Posted April 6 (edited) Because he drafted Josh Allen. That’s the simple answer. He also is a decent GM when it comes to drafting, free agency and player relations. Good face of the franchise who represents well on shows like McAfee. That stuff matters. Is he the best GM, no.. but he’s up there. He’s made two really bad moves lately… Diggs extension/WR evaluation as a whole and Von’s restructure. I don’t fault him for the signing. It was really only a 3 year deal that we could’ve gotten out of already if not for the restructure. Von looked like Von before the injury … bad luck there. Diggs extension. Maybe things were all good when it was signed, but Diggs has been a malcontent for most of his career. It’s not hard to envision things going off the rails, especially if his play began to decline.. which we knew likely would happen given his age and extension years. Not sure Beane could ever foresee his QB & WR falling out though.. I don’t think that’s something any GM plans for. However, the WR room evaluation as a whole in recent years has been poor, putting it mildly. He needs to redeem himself, starting now. Edited April 6 by SCBills 2 2 Quote
SoTier Posted April 6 Posted April 6 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: Who did Dorsey "develop" before Allen? Former OROY and already 2 time Pro Bowler Cam Newton? Which of the Bills current coaching staff IS getting paid "top money"? (hint: McD isn't in the top 10). What was the big attendance bump with Mario Williams? TO? You have some research to do... Dorsey is credited with developing Newton into a better passer. He also was fairly well known for working privately with QBs. Russ Brandon was laser focused on the bottom line. The Bills never paid top dollar for coaches, but under Brandon (2006-2018), the budgets Brandon allowed for the coaches wasn't nearly enough to bring in good position coaches, especially on offense where good offensive assistants are expensive. After 2018, the Bills kept OC Daboll and fired all the other offensive coaches. Allen's first QB coach had a single year of coaching college QBs about 20 years earlier. He had no experience working with NFL QBs. I don't know if Williams' signing made a huge jump in attendance but it certainly excited the fan base for a while. When Brandon signed Owens in 2009, Bills fans were angry over the Bills giving Jauron an extension after the team's collapse the previous season. The Bills sold a record number of season tix for the 2009 season, more than 56k IIRC. Quote
FireChans Posted April 6 Posted April 6 20 minutes ago, SoTier said: However, the OL in 2020 wasn't nearly as good as the 2023 OL Disagree with this quite a bit. I think they were pretty close, even if you give the edge to 2023. Of course, now we ditched Morse (who has been our second best OL man for this era) so I have no reason to believe that the 2024 OL is going to be better than 2020 or 2023. I stand by the 2020 team was overall our most talented. We had a top 3-5 WR, a deep receiving stable, a good OL, good LB’s, great DB’s. What units are good or great today? Not DL. Not DB. Not WR, missing both top end talent and quality depth. Units I think were at least pretty good in 2020 relative the the rest of the NFL. QB WR OL LB CB S units I think are at least pretty good in 2024 relative to the rest of the NFL: QB RB TE OL LB That may have been good in 1980, but in a passing league, I prefer DB’s and WR’s to be superstars over RB’s and LB’s. Quote
Mr. WEO Posted April 6 Posted April 6 (edited) 28 minutes ago, SoTier said: Dorsey is credited with developing Newton into a better passer. He also was fairly well known for working privately with QBs. Russ Brandon was laser focused on the bottom line. The Bills never paid top dollar for coaches, but under Brandon (2006-2018), the budgets Brandon allowed for the coaches wasn't nearly enough to bring in good position coaches, especially on offense where good offensive assistants are expensive. After 2018, the Bills kept OC Daboll and fired all the other offensive coaches. Allen's first QB coach had a single year of coaching college QBs about 20 years earlier. He had no experience working with NFL QBs. I don't know if Williams' signing made a huge jump in attendance but it certainly excited the fan base for a while. When Brandon signed Owens in 2009, Bills fans were angry over the Bills giving Jauron an extension after the team's collapse the previous season. The Bills sold a record number of season tix for the 2009 season, more than 56k IIRC. What "top dollar" coaching staff has Beane/Pegula laid out for? Who are the top dollar position coaches the current "budget" allows for? How many top dollar offensive assistants have the Bills churned through since 2017? The good ones are expensive you know... There was no meaningful bump in attendance with Williams. The TO signing was reasonable (you would do well to review all of Beane's FA WR signings over the years). Did Dorsey get the "credit" for Newton turning back into a crappy passer in 2016, 17? Or did his QB coaching magic wear off after 2015? Edited April 6 by Mr. WEO Quote
Jrb1979 Posted April 6 Posted April 6 56 minutes ago, mjt328 said: What exactly does he need a "pass" for? What exactly has "come to roost? Did I slip into a coma and miss the Bills failing to make the playoffs? Did we have a losing record last year? I understand the frustration over not getting a Super Bowl. But the way Bills fans talk about this franchise is becoming more embarrassing by the day and totally disconnected from reality. By every standard of measure, Brandon Beane is one of the top GMs in the entire NFL. If you want to base everything on Super Bowl wins, only three teams (Chiefs, Rams, Bucs) have succeeded in the past 5 seasons. If you want to throw in Conference championships, then you can add the 49ers, Eagles and Bengals. That's a total of 6 teams (out of 31) who have arguably had more success than Buffalo, and more than half of them haven't been able to sustain a high level of play for more than a few consecutive seasons. In the same time span, we are 2nd in the entire NFL in regular season wins and tied for 4th in playoff wins. All these people are pitching a fit about us losing Stefon Diggs. OK fine. It always stinks losing a good player, so I get it. But now the complaints are that Beane shouldn't have given Diggs an extension in the first place? I mean what? This is revisionist history if I've ever heard of it. Nobody and I mean nobody was complaining about that contract two seasons ago. Somehow we would have been better off just letting his contract expire? And let's also completely ignore that we got a (likely very high) 2nd Round draft pick in return, when Keenan Allen - roughly the same age and production level - went for a 4th Rounder. And just a couple years ago, a much younger Amari Cooper went for a measly 5th Rounder. The only high D-Line pick that hasn't worked out is Boogie Basham. Ed Oliver is a monster on the inside and extremely underrated. Greg Rousseau is a good starter and would be so on most NFL teams. AJ Epenesa is a solid rotational player. Harrison Phillips is also a good starter for the Vikings. We have gotten very good production from signing Daquan Jones and last year with Leonard Floyd on a bargain contract. For all the criticism, Von Miller was playing at a Pro Bowl level until the ACL tear. Crap, even Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson have done well on cheap deals on the backend of our roster. Again, if your only standard is being able to chase down and sack Patrick Mahomes in the playoffs, then you need to watch more football. We could have TJ Watt and Myles Garrett on the edge, and he would still manage to make plays. There isn't a single GM in the league who doesn't make mistakes. Howie Roseman is often called the best GM in the entire NFL. He traded up for Carson Wentz, and had whopper 1st Round busts like Jalen Reagor, Nelson Agholor, Andre Dillard and Marcus Smith. The 49ers/John Lynch traded a fortune to get Trey Lance, and also have 1st Round busts like Javon Kinlaw and Solomon Thomas on his resume. What do you think about the Chiefs 2023 draft class and 1st Rounder Felix Anudike-Uzamah (zero starts), or them spending a 1st Rounder on a running back (Clyded Edwards-Helaire) a few years ago? For every bad move Beane has made, you can counter it with something good. Kaiir Elam doesn't work out? Oh well, he ended up nabbing Christian Benford on Day 3. Poor choice in drafting Zack Moss? He makes it up with James Cook a season later, and our running game doesn't miss a beat. At the end of the day, that's what counts. The final roster he puts together, and how it compares versus the rest of the league. Not nitpicking every individual miss. If the team ends up falling apart this year because of cap issues and poor decisions, then it's fair to let Beane have it. But as of today, anyone picking the Bills to finish behind the Dolphins/Jets, miss the playoffs, etc., really has no idea what's going to happen. I heard the same cries last year, and we finished as AFC Champs again. He's built a good regular season team but still hasn't found many elite playmakers that put them over the top. Compared to the drought years this is much better. Quote
Simon Posted April 6 Posted April 6 14 hours ago, FireChans said: Lots of disagrees with this post, but I guess folks are afraid to answer my questions. Yeah, folks avoid interacting with you because of your "questions". 1 Quote
Rigotz Posted April 6 Posted April 6 HOW DARE HE NOT GET EVERY SINGLE THING RIGHT! BE GONE! Bring back Buddy Nix, Doug Whaley, Marv Levy, Russ Brandon (????), and Tom Donahoe! 1 Quote
Dr.Mantis_Toboggan Posted April 6 Posted April 6 4 hours ago, Jrb1979 said: After 20 years of nothing, I guess division titles are a success. Regular season success means little in the long run. As I posted in another thread outside of Allen, this team lacks a lot of elite talent. That's on Beane. Both are like the Bills. Great regular season teams but can't get over the hump in the playoffs. Only one team can win it all, that means 31 others had unsuccessful seasons? For me, personally, it’s all about enjoying sundayS, not just hoping they get to one game at the end of the year and win that one particular Sunday, and if they don’t come out on the right side of that game, then everything was for nought? It would be a great experience and all obviously to see 17 hoist a Lombardi, but as a fan, if my team is winning more than they are losing, that’s all you can really ask for as again only one team can win it all. I’m not going to look back on all these winning seasons with any modicum of failure, I’m just going to count my blessings the Bills Mafia has one of the winningest teams in the NFL over the last five years, and keep hoping next season is the year they finally get over the hump… 1 1 Quote
FireChans Posted April 6 Posted April 6 1 hour ago, Simon said: Yeah, folks avoid interacting with you because of your "questions". This take shut down the board for 2 hours. Quote
jaybills Posted April 6 Posted April 6 On 4/5/2024 at 3:19 PM, Blackbeard said: We should definitely fire him. Imagine. Trading away Stephen Diggs. The nerve! Drafting Josh Allen, too. What a loser. Quote
Mister Defense Posted April 6 Posted April 6 3 hours ago, Rigotz said: HOW DARE HE NOT GET EVERY SINGLE THING RIGHT! BE GONE! Bring back Buddy Nix, Doug Whaley, Marv Levy, Russ Brandon (????), and Tom Donahoe! Really, as backwards as it seems, that is actually how they think, those who want a new head coach, a new quarterback, a new GM. Like I said in my post here, they are like 1st graders who don't know how to think correctly yet: 'did you see that throw that Allen made?!? HE is the problem!' "That call that McDermott made on 3rd and 12!!? Fire him!!" I am not saying people cannot have valid criticism, I do, most do, as that helps things along, and can lead to better choices and better people running the show if needed. BUT that is not what most of the haters do, instead, they just do what the OP did here. I'd bet the more consistent ones likely lead their lives like this, and form most of their opinions on things in the same manner. So glad that the leaders of the Bills are not like that. And the vast majority of Bills' fans. The (irrational) haters should all get a new team, one more in line with their philosophy--how about the Panthers? That seems like a good fit right now.. 2 Quote
eball Posted April 6 Posted April 6 On 4/5/2024 at 4:36 PM, GunnerBill said: Some of us did not like the 2022 offseason at the time and it has proven to be pretty much an unmitigated disaster: Free Agent signings: Jordan Phillips - $5m Tim Settle - $9m Daquan Jones - $14m Von Miller - $120m Roger Saffold - $6.25m Ryan Bates - $17m OJ Howard - $3.5m Jameson Crowder - $2m Extension: Stefon Diggs - $96m First round pick: Kaiir Elam I know he had some decent success with some of his later picks - Cook, Bernard, Benford - but it is by any standards a bit of a disaster of an offseason. I’ll push back a bit here. Not a great offseason by any means, but hardly a disaster. Daquan is a stud. Miller was playing great before the ACL. Bates was a solid piece, and Crowder got hurt. Phillips was effective when healthy. Saffold was washed, Settle did nothing extraordinary, and Howard was a flyer who was cut. Saffold was a terrible signing and Settle was a “we hope he’s on the rise” signing that didn’t pan out. But do we blame Beane for injuries now? The Diggs extension was necessary given the way the WR market exploded, and he was playing at a high level. Jury is still out on Elam but apparently he’s been hurt for most of his time here as well. Quote
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