Diggs traded to Texans for picks

[Returntoglory]

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

At the end of the day, this team is missing nearly 2,000 yards and 15 passing TDs of production from last year's team.  That's about half of Allen's passing production.

 

If it were that easy to replace that with a pair of 5th round WRs and a seven year vet that's averaged 500 yards & 3 TDs, then we wouldn't be talking about drafting a WR in rounds 1 & 2 or if possible, getting a high-priced veteran WR.  

 

We're looking more like the Ravens than ever.  

 

 

"TRUST THE PROCESS"

[ALG1130]

13 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I actually think it may take pressure off Allen. 

-In the talk piece I linked with Shady et al, one of the hosts (Acho?) made a big point of the pressure it puts on a QB when you have a top receiver demanding the ball, that it can influence the play calling and the QB's decision making.  Shady disagreed.  But it's a point: Josh has said he's a bit of a "people pleaser".  Are some of the times when Josh was forcing the ball to Stef or to Gabe with poor results, influenced by his desire to "get them their bag"?  Did it influence play selection?  Was Diggs "don't listen to him" (referring to Dorsey) because Josh was trying to follow progressions and not look to Diggs first?

-Josh has said he doesn't like to "be an #######" and "call people out" about performance.  IF it's true that Diggs was "going off" on Josh not only on the sidelines but in the locker room and sometimes practice to the point where it was detrimental to the team, does it take confliction away from Josh if he doesn't have that in his face and need to make that decision?  Or was that "in his face" actually helping Josh?  Maybe it helped initially in 2020 and 2021, but now it's a weight on him?
-It's been notable to me when Josh has talked about new receivers coming in, he's repeatedly mentioned "works hard, doesn't complain".  Now Diggs has always been noted for working hard.  But maybe there's been a lot of complaining, and that's been Josh's indirect way of calling that out (and not getting through)
 

 

I don't think Diggs preferences on where he wanted to go were given any weight whatsoever.  Why would you think so? 

I also don't think Diggs wanting out was given too much weight.  I think the "wanting" was on the side of the Bills brass and possibly Josh.

 

I do think there may have been a precipitating factor that made the Bills willing to move on at a fire sale price.  Maybe Allen asked Diggs to "get in the lab" with him and Diggs declined to do so.  Maybe the Bills gave Diggs a rehab or a conditioning program and it's been clear he hasn't been following it - Beane specifically mentioned "fashion" and "he's back working out now".  Coaches can't talk football to players, but they can call to check in or for social reasons, maybe there were 'relationship building' calls that were swatted down.

 

I personally think the Bills have been fishing for the right balance as well as the right talent in the WR room since Beasley and Brown then Sanders left.  In hindsight, I think moving on from Chad Hall and McKenzie last season while bringing in new WR in Hardy and Sherfield AND a new WR coach, may have been an attempt to change the energy in the room as well as to upgrade (the upgrade obviously failed).  Chad Hall was notably buddies with his WR and Diggs praised him to the skies.  If Diggs had a 'tude, maybe Hall wasn't willing to get in Diggs grill.  McKenzie was the guy who talked to Diggs on the phone after 13 seconds.  Maybe they felt he'd become a buddy and enabler of Diggs 'tude so "bye Felicia".

In film clips of '23 minicamp after Diggs showed up, that any time Diggs and Allen were talking the WR coach was RIGHT THERE, to the point that I remarked on it.
 

I do think that Allen could have "gone to the mat" to keep Diggs and that would have had a lot of weight, but I don't think he did.  McCoy and company pulled no punches and made no bones about Allen and Diggs relationship: "it's bad".

 

 

I think Morse is another guy where the Bills made a decision to move on a year early rather than a year late.   

But you're right about the leadership and Beane acknowledged as much.

 

 

You shouldn't be surprised.  Beane's MO is that he only restructures as needed to make moves.  So if Beane feels he can make a good trade for someone, he won't hesitate, but he also won't do it until just before he needs it.

 

 

I honestly think Beane and his scouts analysis of the WR quality will drive this.  It's notable that the 1st year contribution of last year's WR was:

1. 5th round Puka Nacua

2. 2nd round Rashee Rice

3. 1st round Jordan Addison

 

Addison was the 4th WR taken in the 1st.

Rice was the 3rd WR taken in the 2nd, and the 7th WR overall.

If I'm counting right, Nacua was #20.  (Obviously there's a stroke of luck there.)
 

Keep in mind Allen was the 3rd QB drafted.  My point is that Beane and Co trust their personnel evaluation.  They'll move up if they think it's critical, but they're more likely to be strategic about it than others think, because there is that "crap shoot" element to the draft.

There has been a ton of talk about Diggs wanting out, and a lot of "I told you so!!" from sports pundits who knew this. Shady McCoy flat out said Diggs would be going to Houston, and Joe Mixon pretty much outed this whole situation with his tweet about how Diggs asked for the trade to Houston, and got his wish. I personally didn't even need to know about this stuff to figure it out. He has made it pretty clear he was unhappy, his brother was always vouching for him to get out of Buffalo. The writing was on the wall. I don't know how much say or not Josh had in it, but I don't think he was going to try and stop it, and on some level he may be relieved.

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, Returntoglory said:

"TRUST THE PROCESS"

 

This is where The Process has brought us.  

 

 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks for this. Agreed on all counts.

Also, the dead cap hurts, but as someone said on Twitter yesterday: "What player of consequence were you realistically signing at this point in the offseason anyway?". It's not the fans' money, so it's weird that the fans get so bent out of shape about it.

For me, the fact that all the dead money hits THIS year -- when the Bills were likely done spending big money in free agency anyway -- makes it palatable. Starting in 2025, Diggs is completely off the books, frees up about $25 million, and the Bills will have a very healthy cap situation going forward.

So yes, in the moment and in a vacuum, it looks and feels bad and everyone craps on the Bills. In the long run, I think they'll still be good and still make the playoffs this year, and then will be younger and cheaper and more dynamic going forward, and with a healthier cap situation to show for it.

....but the dead cap!

 

You allude to a good point "when the Bills were likely done spending big money in free agency anyway"

 

I would make a bet that the timing of the trade is, in fact, driven by Beane looking at the available players he could sign or make small trades for, and deciding "OK, I'm done here, so at this point it won't hurt us to take on that extra $3M dead cap."

And part of why it looks bad, I'm sure, is that the Bills have Diggs valued as a #1 WR (and are paying him as such), but the rest of the league is saying "Nuh Uh, Not This Boy, Not at This Time."  So in making the trade, the Bills are for sure saying "OK, Rest of the League, we hear you, and we'd rather have his roster spot than try to persuade you you're wrong in how you see him next season".

 

5 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:

There has been a ton of talk about Diggs wanting out, and a lot of "I told you so!!" from sports pundits who knew this. Shady McCoy flat out said Diggs would be going to Houston, and Joe Mixon pretty much outed this whole situation with his tweet about how Diggs asked for the trade to Houston, and got his wish. I personally didn't even need to know about this stuff to figure it out. He has made it pretty clear he was unhappy, his brother was always vouching for him to get out of Buffalo. The writing was on the wall. I don't know how much say or not Josh had in it, but I don't think he was going to try and stop it, and on some level he may be relieved.

 

When did Shady say "Diggs would be going to Houston"?  Beane said this particular trade all came up this week, so if Shady knew earlier, that's significant.  If he knew this week, Meh.

 

The thought that the Bills would make a bad value trade within the conference to give Diggs something he wants, does not pass the "sniff test" to me.  I think there's an element of "Falling Cat" here - you know, where your cat falls off the table awkwardly, lands on his feet, and then stalks off regally with an "I MEANT to do that" air.

 

 

Edited April 4 by Beck Water

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You allude to a good point "when the Bills were likely done spending big money in free agency anyway"

 

I would make a bet that the timing of the trade is, in fact, driven by Beane looking at the available players he could sign or make small trades for, and deciding "OK, I'm done here, so at this point it won't hurt us to take on that extra $3M dead cap."

And part of why it looks bad, I'm sure, is that the Bills have Diggs valued as a #1 WR (and are paying him as such), but the rest of the league is saying "Nuh Uh, Not This Boy, Not at This Time."  So in making the trade, the Bills are for sure saying "OK, Rest of the League, we hear you, and we'd rather have his roster spot than try to persuade you you're wrong in how you see him next season".

Right. There's also the factor of getting the $10 million from Tre White's release after June 1st. So I think the Bills will still be able to sign all of their picks, have the practice squad and "emergency fill-ins" funds that Beane likes, and still sign another player or two.

In theory, paying $31 million for a player not on your roster hurts. In practice, it's only $3 million more than they were already going to be paying Diggs anyway. For whatever reason, they concluded they'd rather pay an extra $3 million to have Diggs NOT be on the roster and to get a draft pick. Clearly, things had gone sour enough that it was worth the added cost to them.

And lastly...while many are stating their disappointment with the compensation the Bills received, I actually think it's quite impressive. It's not much less than what the Panthers just got for Brian Burns, a 26 year old edge rusher in his prime. It's slightly more than the Chiefs just got for L'Jarius Sneed, a young player at a premium position. It's more than fellow receivers Diontae Johnson, Amari Cooper, and Jerry Jeudy fetched, and those guys are all younger than Diggs. Count me among the minority of fans who actually think the Bills did quite WELL getting a 2nd, ESPECIALLY since that pick belongs to the Vikings, who --if they start Sam Darnold at QB this year -- could wind up picking in the top 10 of the draft next year. We could be looking at, say, the 39th pick. Not bad for a WR who basically wasn't a factor in our offense over the past 9+ weeks of the season.

Edited April 4 by Logic

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

Right. There's also the factor of getting the $10 million from Tre White's release after June 1st. So I think the Bills will still be able to sign all of their picks, have the practice squad and "emergency fill-ins" funds that Beane likes, and still sign another player or two.

In theory, paying $31 million for a player not on your roster hurts. In practice, it's only $3 million more than they were already going to be paying Diggs anyway. For whatever reason, they concluded they'd rather pay an extra $3 million to have Diggs NOT be on the roster and to get a draft pick. Clearly, things had gone sour enough that it was worth the added cost to them.

And lastly...while many are stating their disappointment with the compensation the Bills received, I actually think it's quite impressive. It's not much less than what the Panthers just got for Brian Burns, a 26 year old edge rusher in his prime. It's slightly more than the Chiefs just got for L'Jarius Sneed, a young player at a premium position. It's more than fellow receivers Diontae Johnson, Amari Cooper, and Jerry Jeudy fetched, and those guys are all younger than Diggs. Count me among the minority of fans who actually think the Bills did quite WELL getting a 2nd, ESPECIALLY since that pick belongs to the Vikings, who --if they start Sam Darnold at QB this year -- could wind up picking in the top 10 of the draft next year. We could be looking at, say, the 39th pick. Not bad for a WR who basically wasn't a factor in our offense over the past 9+ weeks of the season.

 

Another good comparison is Keenan Allen who is similar in age and price, and only netted a 4th round pick.

[Returntoglory]

17 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

This is where The Process has brought us.  

 

 

It's a long Journey my friend.

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Another good comparison is Keenan Allen who is similar in age and price, and only netted a 4th round pick.

Great point. 

From my point of view, getting a 2nd (even though, by giving back a 5 and 6, the value is really equivalent to an early-mid 3rd) for a 30 year old WR with a huge contract -- particularly after said WR posted less-than-elite production over the back half of the season and in the playoffs -- is damn near a miracle.

I still think Diggs is very good, and will be a nice addition for the Texans, but...at this point, after all the nonsense the past few offseasons, I'll take the 2nd and the $25million in cap space that opens up next year.
 

[papazoid]

another way to look at diggs  cap history with bills

 

bills got 4 years of elite level play out of diggs for an ave cap hit of $19.7 mil/yr

 

fair value for both team and player.

 

he's simply not worth the higher cap hits going forward.

 

2020- $14.8

2021- $ 6.4

2022-$11.7

2023- $14.9

2024- $31.0

TOTAL- $78.8

4yr/ave $19.7

[JGMcD2]

19 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

This is where The Process has brought us.  

 

 

Oh no, a perennial contender that’s in striking distance of a Super Bowl. The horror. 

[Pete]

51 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Diggs was a great player and great in the community here in Buffalo. He's now a Houston Texan. Can we show some grace as fans, appreciate his time here and let him go on with his life without bashing the guy? Aren't we better than that? #BillsMafia

My third takeaway of Steph is him going on tilt against the Packers.  I wish Steph well.  He was great, he’s a JAG now that disappears every big game, and causes rifts with his drama.  I much prefer the Bills drama free.  I’m happy Josh does not have to answer questions about Steph’s twitter postings any more.  Bills are back to a team concentrated on football, not drama 

[BillsFan2313]

40 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

At the end of the day, this team is missing nearly 2,000 yards and 15 passing TDs of production from Diggs & Davis on last year's team.  That's about half of Allen's passing production.

 

If it were that easy to replace that with a pair of 5th round WRs and a seven year vet that's averaged 500 yards & 3 TDs, then we wouldn't be talking about drafting a WR in rounds 1 & 2 or if possible, getting a high-priced veteran WR.  

 

We're looking more like the Ravens than ever.  

 

 

 

Does the season start today?

[Returntoglory]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Does the season start today?

For some, It has ended.

[Nuncha]

50 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

At the end of the day, this team is missing nearly 2,000 yards and 15 passing TDs of production from Diggs & Davis on last year's team.  That's about half of Allen's passing production.

 

If it were that easy to replace that with a pair of 5th round WRs and a seven year vet that's averaged 500 yards & 3 TDs, then we wouldn't be talking about drafting a WR in rounds 1 & 2 or if possible, getting a high-priced veteran WR.  

 

We're looking more like the Ravens than ever.  

 

 

I trust in Beane.

[CirclnWagons]

Riddle me this, in an obvious rebuild year, why not let Trubisky take several more snaps to save Josh’s body and build trade value for himself in the future? With Josh’s physical style of play, taking serious body blows in a season not setup to see more than 4-6 wins just doesn’t make sense to me. Crazy take but what else can you say 

[Warriorspikes51]

 

Greg trying to start trouble in Houston! 

[Beck Water]

34 minutes ago, Logic said:

Right. There's also the factor of getting the $10 million from Tre White's release after June 1st. So I think the Bills will still be able to sign all of their picks, have the practice squad and "emergency fill-ins" funds that Beane likes, and still sign another player or two.

In theory, paying $31 million for a player not on your roster hurts. In practice, it's only $3 million more than they were already going to be paying Diggs anyway. For whatever reason, they concluded they'd rather pay an extra $3 million to have Diggs NOT be on the roster and to get a draft pick. Clearly, things had gone sour enough that it was worth the added cost to them.

And lastly...while many are stating their disappointment with the compensation the Bills received, I actually think it's quite impressive. It's not much less than what the Panthers just got for Brian Burns, a 26 year old edge rusher in his prime. It's slightly more than the Chiefs just got for L'Jarius Sneed, a young player at a premium position. It's more than fellow receivers Diontae Johnson, Amari Cooper, and Jerry Jeudy fetched, and those guys are all younger than Diggs. Count me among the minority of fans who actually think the Bills did quite WELL getting a 2nd, ESPECIALLY since that pick belongs to the Vikings, who --if they start Sam Darnold at QB this year -- could wind up picking in the top 10 of the draft next year. We could be looking at, say, the 39th pick. Not bad for a WR who basically wasn't a factor in our offense over the past 9+ weeks of the season.

 

You raise some good points here, especially the compensation factor.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The bills set up the contracts for the following players to be restructured every year to create cap space, expecting that these players were happy playing out their careers in buffalo

 

Allen

White

Dawkins

Diggs

 

Injuries crushed the white contract and diggs apparently wasn't happy

 

The contract beane signed diggs to he never expected to have to trade or get rid of him 

[papazoid]

the bills will absolutely replace diggs. we will have another WR1 to get excited about.

 

vegas says the bills are a Top 5 team.....and likely to remain that way as long as Josh is healthy.

 

COACHING is what's holding this team back.

 

McClappity isnt even smart enough to run 13 seconds off the clock to close out a game.

 

Squibb the kickoff (run 3 seconds off clock)

1st down - instead of laying 15 yards off kelce and tyreek....you do the exact opposite. get up on the line and deliberately mug them. commit a 5 yard penalty (run another 2-3 seconds off clock)

1st down (2nd play) - repeat penalty (run more time off)

1st Down (3rd play) - do it again

1st Down (likely final play - defend a hail mary

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Diggs should be productive not in the slot where Brady had him playing often.  It's difficult to envision that wasn't a huge part of Diggs' discontent.  If he returns to his usual productivity it will tell us a lot.

 

The concern for Allen which I have yet to see anyone mention, apart from the fact that if he only averages what he did under Brady, he's headed for more of a 2019 passing season rather than his recent ones, is that he's not a high-percentage short passing QB.  That's far from his forte.  But those are the WRs he's now saddled with unless someone steps up to provide what Diggs has provided over the past four seasons.  Shakir seems to be out best prospect for that right now which isn't exactly reassuring.  

 

It's all but a given that we need to draft a WR at 28th, and possibly at 60th too, or maybe a trade up in the 2nd as a safety valve.  

 

While Diggs may not have put up great numbers under Brady, he still drew coverage of some sort.  As many that have covered this trade have pointed out, which should be obvious, we don't currently have a WR that's any opposing DC is concerned about in the matchup category.  That's an issue.  And all a mere three weeks prior to the Draft.  

 

 

I get the concern about turning him into a ball control passer, but I wonder if that’s the way to trend a bit more given how defenses play him.  We’ve seen a ton of two-high shell, and maybe the approach to that is to run the ball (Cook is dynamic) and get it to guys who can break a few tackles (Shakir) or do something on a bubble.  

 

I completely agree with the point that we cannot abandon a deep game. I’m also of the mind that YAC is overblown, and that if we have guys catching the ball 15 yards downfield with their backs to the end zone I’m totally find with that.   But that type of passing game probably isn’t going to be available with the way teams are playing us.  So I’m all about getting guys who can break a tackle or run a corner over on completions underneath the shell.