The criticism of Josh Allen

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Designed scramble would be an oxymoron one would think.

 

That was certainly my belief.  I think the Bills "design" scrambles in the same sense that they "design" scramble drill routes - the WR have instructions they execute after the QB is flushed out of the pocket, in order to be "QB friendly", the OLmen have instructions on how to continue to block in the same circumstances.  But they aren't exactly "designed plays".

[Governor]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:45 AM, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a stud at QB. He is top 5 no doubt.

But the "other" fans in the NFL think he is rough around the edges. His accuracy shows, at times, that he is inconsistent which we all see. He can't hit the long ball with "touch" is another comment I hear a lot. And he doesn't see the field as well as other top QB's, hence the missed open WR's we see in many games. But he can ball! And I'll take that all day.

Now just win one baby!

Touch on screens and dump-offs and long ball accuracy are definitely his biggest weaknesses. I don’t think he will ever fix it. He throws the ball too hard.

On 3/31/2024 at 8:45 AM, Dillenger4 said:

 

Edited April 2 by Governor

[Don Otreply]

10 hours ago, bills11 said:

Josh's playoff numbers are historical it's a team game..he has 21 tds and 4 int in his playoff careers ..for reference Roethlisberger had 36 tds 28int peyton 40-25.. he's a historic level qb the only reason he hasn't won a superbowl is the defence. People forget how the pats defence carried brady at the beggining of his career 

Agree,  The defense scheme has pretty much failed every post season, yet we continue to roll out the same soft zone / contain style defense annually, at some point one would think that some modifications for the post season are in order. 
 

I as well think Shaw66 in correct in how he describes how Josh can be a better QB for the team, that does not mean it Josh’s fault all the time, it just means he could stand to improve an aspect of his craft, just as our post season defense could stand improvement…,  when a team is good like the Bills, it’s the incremental improvements that will put them over the top, jmo. 

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Agree,  The defense scheme has pretty much failed every post season, yet we continue to roll out the same soft zone / contain style defense annually, at some point one would think that some modifications for the post season are in order. 
 

I as well think Shaw66 in correct in how he describes how Josh can be a better QB for the team, that does not mean it Josh’s fault all the time, it just means he could stand to improve an aspect of his craft, just as our post season defense could stand improvement…,  when a team is good like the Bills, it’s the incremental improvements that will put them over the top, jmo. 

Well stated.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

58 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Agree,  The defense scheme has pretty much failed every post season, yet we continue to roll out the same soft zone / contain style defense annually, at some point one would think that some modifications for the post season are in order. 
 

I as well think Shaw66 in correct in how he describes how Josh can be a better QB for the team, that does not mean it Josh’s fault all the time, it just means he could stand to improve an aspect of his craft, just as our post season defense could stand improvement…,  when a team is good like the Bills, it’s the incremental improvements that will put them over the top, jmo. 

It’s pretty ridiculous. The Chiefs have been pretty inconsistent the entire season, but moved the ball at will against us. Only putting up 17 against the Ravens. So give Josh Baltimore’s defense and we would’ve won decisively. 

[CincyBillsFan]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Quit with your hero worship and read what people are actually saying.

 

The issue here is when you deny the words you used, it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion.  

If you want to have a "reasonable discussion" maybe you should stop calling it "hero worship" when some of us disagree with your takes on Allen?

 

Look, I don't think there is much Allen can do going forward to improve his physical tools.  IMO the best use of his time the first couple of months after the season ends is exactly what he appears to be doing:  relaxing and decompressing from football. 

 

I also think Shaw has identified the one place where Allen could significantly improve and that's in his decision making.  But experience will go a long way towards fixing this.  Where I disagree with Shaw is that I don't think this deficiency is as important as he does. I believe that Allen is already playing at a level, including decision making, that would win the Bills Super Bowls if the coaching and play from other top Bills talents matched Allen's play in the playoffs.

 

I sense that you don't like Allen's style of play.  Here's your quote abut Favre from above:  "But I think one can argue Favre cost his team championships with his gunslinger approach."  I disagree with this because you are saying that Favre would have been better if he changed who he fundamentally was.  IMO he would not have been better and maybe would have had a mediocre at best career if you had your way.  From what I can tell you want the same thing for Allen. 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Any criticism of Josh Allen or acknowledgement of such has got to stop.  Those who do it look uninformed and clownish, or they are desperate for attention and clicks.  
 

He is an elite QB with generational talent who will be enshrined in Canton one day.  Can he improve?  Sure, we all have opportunities to improve, but his performances are not behind the Bills’ failure to reach the SB.

 

Against the Texans we had a special teams TD reversed and a defensive meltdown in OT.  13 seconds is on the defense and coaching.  This year, thank you Tyler Bass and Stefon Diggs.  17 isn’t the problem.  It’s the 54 other players and coaches that deserve the criticism.

Well said. 

 

When someone like Shaw or Beck point out areas that Allen could work on they do it from the POV of being Bills fans and wanting the team to get better.  They also do it without malice aimed at Allen and in full recognition that the path to a Bills Super Bowl might be more likely achieved if Allen tweaked his game then if other parts of the Bills organization pulled their fair share. These are all debatable points but IMO form the basis for an honest, positive discussion about Allen and his play.

 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

If you want to have a "reasonable discussion" maybe you should stop calling it "hero worship" when some of us disagree with your takes on Allen?

 

Look, I don't think there is much Allen can do going forward to improve his physical tools.  IMO the best use of his time the first couple of months after the season ends is exactly what he appears to be doing:  relaxing and decompressing from football. 

 

I also think Shaw has identified the one place where Allen could significantly improve and that's in his decision making.  But experience will go a long way towards fixing this.  Where I disagree with Shaw is that I don't think this deficiency is as important as he does. I believe that Allen is already playing at a level, including decision making, that would win the Bills Super Bowls if the coaching and play from other top Bills talents matched Allen's play in the playoffs.

 

I sense that you don't like Allen's style of play.  Here's your quote abut Favre from above:  "But I think one can argue Favre cost his team championships with his gunslinger approach."  I disagree with this because you are saying that Favre would have been better if he changed who he fundamentally was.  IMO he would not have been better and maybe would have had a mediocre at best career if you had your way.  From what I can tell you want the same thing for Allen. 

 

 

 

 

Well said. 

 

When someone like Shaw or Beck point out areas that Allen could work on they do it from the POV of being Bills fans and wanting the team to get better.  They also do it without malice aimed at Allen and in full recognition that the path to a Bills Super Bowl might be more likely achieved if Allen tweaked his game then if other parts of the Bills organization pulled their fair share. These are all debatable points but IMO form the basis for an honest, positive discussion about Allen and his play.

 

I think Favre is the floor for Allen.  Allen has better physical talent and if he can add to that some of the mental aspect of a Montana he can be the best ever.

[Professor Worthington]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

So as Shaw and I have said, he is a great QB that can continue to improve on the mental side of his game.  Is that kind of commentary allowed or do we have to stop because you say we must?

Spending time picking apart Josh’s flaws is like doing the same for Steph Curry and not scrutinizing how Draymond, Klay Thompson, Steve Kerr, etc  are playing/coaching to their potentials.  It’s not where the spotlight should shine.

 

The only way the Bills win it all is by improving JA’s supporting cast.  If all else is the same and we see incremental improvements in Josh, there is no Lombardi.  One man alone, no matter how talented, cannot win a championship.  I think we’ve proven that.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Professor Worthington said:

Spending time picking apart Josh’s flaws is like doing the same for Steph Curry and not scrutinizing how Draymond, Klay Thompson, Steve Kerr, etc  are playing/coaching to their potentials.  It’s not where the spotlight should shine.

 

The only way the Bills win it all is by improving JA’s supporting cast.  If all else is the same and we see incremental improvements in Josh, there is no Lombardi.  One man alone, no matter how talented, cannot win a championship.  I think we’ve proven that.

I’m still confused.  What can we say on the message board and what can’t we say?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Um we lose to Patrick Mahomes. He loses to Ryan Tannehill as the 1 seed and throws a 99 yard pick six vs us. 
 

At this point in their careers, Allen has better playoff numbers and far more playoff wins.

 

If you polled random NFL fans that weren’t Bills or Ravens fans about who was a better playoff performer, Allen would win a landslide. It’s actually not close. 

Lamar Jackson is the most overrated QB of this generation. When I say overrated, I am not saying he’s BAD, but he’s not in the same league as Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, or even Herbert. LJ benefits from an elite coaching staff/GM. He’s a juiced up Tyrod Taylor. A game manager w/ some game breaking ability. Take away his running and he’s a fringe starter at best. He’s got a great arm, but is just too inconsistent. Ultimately, a QB’s job is to throw the ball. Allen can chuck it from anywhere and even when he eventually loses some speed, his strength will still allow him to extend plays and maneuver the pocket. Jackson is going into year 7 and I don’t see anything changing, he continuously lets his team down in the playoffs whereas it’s the other way around for Allen. Harbaugh is going to have resurrect the 2000 Raven’s defense in order to win a SB. 

[Professor Worthington]

14 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I’m still confused.  What can we say on the message board and what can’t we say?

Can you understand the difference between a figure of speech and an authoritarian decree?  Since you’re deferring to me for guidance, I guess that means you consider me an authority, and I’m flattered.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Professor Worthington said:

Can you understand the difference between a figure of speech and an authoritarian decree?  Since you’re deferring to me for guidance, I guess that means you consider me an authority, and I’m flattered.

So when you say criticism of Josh has to stop you’re not serious.

 

Looking back through this thread it strikes me there is actually agreement on many things:

 

1.  Josh is a great QB.

2.  People can accept that Josh can continue to improve on the mental or processing aspects of his game.

3.  Deficiencies in other team aspects particularly on the defensive side and on coaching need to be improved going forward.

 

[90sBills]

35 minutes ago, Professor Worthington said:

Spending time picking apart Josh’s flaws is like doing the same for Steph Curry and not scrutinizing how Draymond, Klay Thompson, Steve Kerr, etc  are playing/coaching to their potentials.  It’s not where the spotlight should shine.

 

The only way the Bills win it all is by improving JA’s supporting cast.  If all else is the same and we see incremental improvements in Josh, there is no Lombardi.  One man alone, no matter how talented, cannot win a championship.  I think we’ve proven that.

It’s a team game so of course his teammates have to be good to win. But within the parameters of the game he holds the most decision making power. So it’s imperative for him to improve on that aspect regardless of the team around him. It’s useless to have great weapons if he’s making the wrong reads. That’s all most of us are saying.

 

Look at KC this year with terrible receivers. Yet they’ve managed to win it all with Mahomes making the right decisions to maximize their offensive output. That’s where Allen can operate at but he isn’t because the processing and decisions are not there yet. 

[Ya Digg?]

27 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Lamar Jackson is the most overrated QB of this generation. When I say overrated, I am not saying he’s BAD, but he’s not in the same league as Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, or even Herbert. LJ benefits from an elite coaching staff/GM. He’s a juiced up Tyrod Taylor. A game manager w/ some game breaking ability. Take away his running and he’s a fringe starter at best. He’s got a great arm, but is just too inconsistent. Ultimately, a QB’s job is to throw the ball. Allen can chuck it from anywhere and even when he eventually loses some speed, his strength will still allow him to extend plays and maneuver the pocket. Jackson is going into year 7 and I don’t see anything changing, he continuously lets his team down in the playoffs whereas it’s the other way around for Allen. Harbaugh is going to have resurrect the 2000 Raven’s defense in order to win a SB. 

Sorry but you lost me once you mentioned Herbert. The guy is talented but Lamar has done so much more than Herbert has at this point 

[90sBills]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So when you say criticism of Josh has to stop you’re not serious.

 

Looking back through this thread it strikes me there is actually agreement on many things:

 

1.  Josh is a great QB.

2.  People can accept that Josh can continue to improve on the mental or processing aspects of his game.

3.  Deficiencies in other team aspects particularly on the defensive side and on coaching need to be improved going forward.

 

Well summarized! The Allen discussions always get cloudy because some people cannot bear the thought of him having anything to do with the Bills failing. So even the most truthful criticism of him will be met with revolt and all the other points get tossed to the side even though those points are agreeable by all. 

[Professor Worthington]

29 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So when you say criticism of Josh has to stop you’re not serious.

 

Looking back through this thread it strikes me there is actually agreement on many things:

 

1.  Josh is a great QB.

2.  People can accept that Josh can continue to improve on the mental or processing aspects of his game.

3.  Deficiencies in other team aspects particularly on the defensive side and on coaching need to be improved going forward.

 

Yes but again, if Josh improves with all else being the same, I do not think that alone will get us there.  In other words, if we were to rate performance on a 100 point scale, and JA goes from a 95 to a 98-99, the Bills will still need at least one other player or head coach to take it to the same elite level.

 

So rather than pin our hopes on Josh’s incremental improvements, we should be looking for current or future players and coaches who can excel in the biggest moments.

 

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

The most dominant championship teams have at least 2 and usually 3 superstars as a player or coach.  The KC example is noted above.  The Pats had the GOAT, Belichik, and Gronk.  The 9O’s Bills had multiple HOFs (except I don’t buy Marv, but that’s another thread!) and went to 4 straight championships, which is why lack of a ring remains both maddening and mind-boggling.

 

 

[Charles Romes]

2 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

It’s pretty ridiculous. The Chiefs have been pretty inconsistent the entire season, but moved the ball at will against us. Only putting up 17 against the Ravens. So give Josh Baltimore’s defense and we would’ve won decisively. 

 
 

I thought not having the backup quarterback of the defense in there was devastating, especially give how much the team’s top tier pass rush relied on scheme in 2023.  

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Calling specific runs is different than going through progressions on a called pass play. 

 

Read the post right before that one in my conversation with Shaw

[transplantbillsfan]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

It seems you've missed the point entirely.  I am not talking about how often Josh carries the ball.  I'm talking about how effectively Josh executes the offense he's given to operate.  

 

The question isn't how many times Josh ran the ball.  The question is how effectively he executed the offense as designed.   If he had an option to pass or run, did he choose the right option?   Did he execute the fake properly?  If it was a designed run, did he make the right cut.   In the passing game, which is what most of us have been talking about, did he make the right read?  Did throw to the guy he was supposed to?   Was he too late coming to a receiver?   It has nothing whatsoever with how many times he carried the ball.

 

How a QB executes the offense is the QB's most important job.   He's the coach on the field.   He's the leader.  He's the decision maker. 

 

Josh's physical skills are important, of course, but if physical skills determined who's the best QB, Michael Vick would have been the MFP five years in a row and won four Super Bowls.  There never has been a QB with his physical skills.   And Cam Newton was not too far behind.  

 

Brock Purdy was in the MVP discussion in 2023, and his physical skills make him look like a high school kid when he's compared to Josh.  He was in the MVP discussion because he ran their offense with tremendous precision and effectiveness. 

 

The simplest measure, at least one of them, is passer rating.  He's 34 on the all-time passer rating list, behind 13 QBs who are still active, and behind retired guys like Brees, Brady, Romo, Manning.  When a guy has a high passer rating, he's completing a high percentage of passes and his TD to INT ratio is low, like 3-1.  Josh has been 3-1 once, in 2020.  Mahomes, Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady all are better than 3-1 for their careers.  That's a tell-tale sign that Josh hasn't made decisions, hasn't executed the offense, as well as he's supposed to.  When he's throwing for 29 TDs and I8 INTs, as he did in 2023, he ain't there yet.   And don't tell me about his running.  To get up to 3-1 in 2023, Josh would have needed 25 rushing touchdowns - which would put him in the top five all-time.  That ain't happening. 

 

Josh needs his extraordinary physical abilities just to overcome his deficiencies in the execution of the offense.   He's not bad at executing the offense, just not great.  He's not a bad quarterback, but this isn't a discussion about bad quarterbacks.   It's a discussion about great quarterbacks.  I've been saying for years that when Josh masters the mental part of the game, and he's making good progress, we will see perhaps the greatest QB of all time. 

 

Shaw...   I understand you think I missed your point.  I think you missed mine and we're just talking around each other.

 

You think the offense is predicated strictly on the ball being spread around to the 4 or 5 offensive weapons on the field on pass plays.

 

I think any OC that has a weapon like Josh or Lamar at QB would be a complete idiot to not coach them up in some way on when they should use their legs on passing plays.

 

You think McDermott and his OC by extension just grit their teeth and allow Allen to use his natural instincts to run on passing plays at the times he needs to.

 

I think McDermott is smart enough (in fact, "buttoned up" might be the right term here) to understand it would be incredibly foolish to not try to coach Josh up on the times he should take off, since it's part of his natural ability, anyway.

 

 

We disagree.  That's plain to see.  I really think you're being too old school in your mentality of pigeonholing the QB position--especially the modern QB--to just passing is a bit naive.

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Can you explain what "designed runs and scrambles" means to you?  Scrambles, to my understanding, are by definition when the structure of the play breaks down and the QB chooses to run.

 

ummm... yes.... how else would anyone else define these things?

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

And to anyone paying attention this years Chiefs super bowl win owes more to their defense then to Mahomes or the offense.  If the Bills D played as well as KC's did this season in either 2021 or 2023 Buffalo would have at least one Super Bowl.