The criticism of Josh Allen

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I would suggest that if Josh had taken the shorter throw instead of trying to hit Shakir, we could have run more clock and beaten KC.  Josh is an immense talent.  No one denies that.  I’m glad he’s our QB.  But his improvement will come not in the physical but the mental part of the game, knowing when to take the shorter option as an example.  I expect the more seasons under his belt the more we’ll see that.

 

That's fine, but that's an extremely weak answer to the fact that I posited and does not address it directly.  It also fringes on the play-calling, aka coaching, even if only the offensive side, which some would argue stems from the top-down in terms of what you mentioned.  

 

And in arguing differently, at some point then it would be quite reasonable to begin asking whether our HC is in control of the entire team, or not, or merely the D and even then not in every key situation.  Just sayin'.  

 

 

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's fine, but that's an extremely weak answer to the fact that I posited and does not address it directly.  It also fringes on the play-calling, aka coaching, even if only the offensive side, which some would argue stems from the top-down in terms of what you mentioned.  

 

And in arguing differently, at some point then it would be quite reasonable to begin asking whether our HC is in control of the entire team, or not, or merely the D and even then not in every key situation.  Just sayin'.  

 

 

Josh had a guy open short for a possible first down and a guy open deep for a possible TD.  What more could a play caller possibly be asked to do?

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I would suggest that if Josh had taken the shorter throw instead of trying to hit Shakir, we could have run more clock and beaten KC.  Josh is an immense talent.  No one denies that.  I’m glad he’s our QB.  But his improvement will come not in the physical but the mental part of the game, knowing when to take the shorter option as an example.  I expect the more seasons under his belt the more we’ll see that.

 

Quote

Once again, that points to something beyond merely Allen as to why we do not advance.  

Butting in here, but I think you're both right.   It is certainly true that Allen's performances in the playoffs have never been the principal reason for losses.  There are plenty of fingers to point in a lot of directions, and Allen may not even have been the #1 suspect. 

 

And while I'm not convinced Allen should have thrown for the first down instead targeting Shakir, I am absolutely sure that his mastery of the mental game is what Allen needs.  That's what will define his true greatness.   And just because he hasn't necessarily crapped the bed in the playoffs, having a more effective QB managing the game will make the regular season easier, make it possible to coast into division championships instead of scrambling to get there, make him tougher to game plan for, etc. etc. etc.   

 

I have no doubt Allen needs to get better. 

[PBF81]

39 minutes ago, Billl said:

Josh had a guy open short for a possible first down and a guy open deep for a possible TD.  What more could a play caller possibly be asked to do?

 

So that one thing makes Josh the reason as to why we haven't beaten anything but crap teams in the playoffs his fault then?  Well, OK.  I suppose if that's how you view it.  

 

Which game/play are we talking about by the way?  
 

I guess we'll have to move on to a QB that never misses a pass and one that runs with a little more pizazz than Allen.  

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

There’s a better chance of Josh making the HOF and Lamar missing it than vice versa. At this point, there’s simply no way to say that Allen isn’t a top 2 QB.  Arguments can be made that in any given year he didn’t produce at a top 2 level, but that’s him against the field.  Burrow may have had a better three years ago, and Hurts may have had a better season two years ago, and Lamar may have had a better season last year, but on the whole Josh is easily better than all of them.  20 years from now, nobody is going to rank Lamar above Josh on the all time list.  I’m a huge Lamar fan, but any list that has Lamar on it is a pretty long list.

I’m sorry but I disagree. Lamar as a 2 time MVP getter is pretty much a lock for HoF.

 

I think Allen and Lamar will both be in there.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

There’s a better chance of Josh making the HOF and Lamar missing it than vice versa. At this point, there’s simply no way to say that Allen isn’t a top 2 QB.  Arguments can be made that in any given year he didn’t produce at a top 2 level, but that’s him against the field.  Burrow may have had a better three years ago, and Hurts may have had a better season two years ago, and Lamar may have had a better season last year, but on the whole Josh is easily better than all of them.  20 years from now, nobody is going to rank Lamar above Josh on the all time list.  I’m a huge Lamar fan, but any list that has Lamar on it is a pretty long list.

He’s top 2 imo, but Joe Burrow is the reason the bolded is an exaggeration.  He beat Mahomes in the playoffs and is undefeated vs Josh.  

[Billl]

36 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

So that one thing makes Josh the reason as to why we haven't beaten anything but crap teams in the playoffs his fault then?  Well, OK.  I suppose if that's how you view it.  

 

Which game/play are we talking about by the way?  
 

I guess we'll have to move on to a QB that never misses a pass and one that runs with a little more pizazz than Allen.  

I’m not blaming Josh at all.  He played a great game.  I think the Chiefs had a better team around Mahomes than the Bills did around Allen.  Josh has a gear that no other QB other than Mahomes will ever get to, though.  He’s the one guy we play and know that it’s possible to defend him perfectly and still lose.

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He’s top 2 imo, but Joe Burrow is the reason the bolded is an exaggeration.  He beat Mahomes in the playoffs and is undefeated vs Josh.  

Burrow’s just hurt too much.  When he’s 100%, he might be better than Josh, but it doesn’t matter how good he is at 100% when he’s never 100%.  He’s Manning with injury issues, IMO.  There’s a feeling you get when your team plays against certain QBs, and it just feels different watching your team try to defend Josh.  It’s like when I was a kid watching John Elway.  

 

You know that if the Bengals cut your heart out it’s because Burrow feathered perfectly defended passes into minuscule windows over and over.  You know that if the Ravens do it it’s because Lamar did some brilliant display of athleticism.  With Elway, it was worse because you never knew what it was going to look like.  John was a bridesmaid many, many times before he finally won back to back and then rode off into the sunset, and now he’s on the list of the greatest ever.  Josh will need to do the same if he wants to be put into that category.  Fair or not, Marino is never more than a ‘devil’s advocate’ argument when it comes to the best ever.

[Rigotz]

Simple media strategy.

 

Pick a top 3 QB. 
 

Say he’s not top 3 and somebody else is.

 

Get clicks from both fan bases AND the others who think their QB is top 3, rather than the one you said.

 

Its click-bait.

[stuvian]

I've never read anything negative about Josh, not even on this board. He's universally recognized as a franchise QB. He's carrying the heavy karma of the team's legacy and it's a heavy cross to bear but I think he's holding up admirably. It's up to Beane to field a team good enough to beat the Chiefs on a good day. When you have a great QB the rest shouldn't be too hard.

[Bad Things]

I love you, Josh Allen!

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

I’m not blaming Josh at all.  He played a great game.  I think the Chiefs had a better team around Mahomes than the Bills did around Allen.  Josh has a gear that no other QB other than Mahomes will ever get to, though.  He’s the one guy we play and know that it’s possible to defend him perfectly and still lose.

 

I'm a little confused at what your overall point is.  

 

I argued that we haven't lost a playoff game because of Allen.  You then threw up what presumably were counterexamples, which I considered to be weak.  This last statement of yours seems to be in agreement with the original point.  

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

6 hours ago, 90sBills said:

How many times did Vinatieri bailed out Brady? That’s not the point as Brady is considered the goat. 
 

Let’s say Bass made that kick. So now Mahomes has 1:45 roughly to take his team down for a winning fg. You’re confident that Bills would be able to stop him?

 

Whenever this topic gets discussed it’s always all the other part of the team that needs improving except the main part. Allen is a top 3 qb in the league but he does have room for improvement. Just like all other QBs, including the best guy in Mahomes. 
 

Edit:

Regarding your op I haven’t seen the national media crapping on Allen. I watch alot of national sports shows. The narrative of Allen is not being able to get past Mahomes in the playoffs. Even though Allen lost to Burrow that’s not really discussed at all. If you’re reading comments on Twitter and YouTube etc then it’s a different story and one that should be ignored. 

The Bills stopped Mahomes in the regular season on his last drive. It’s certainly possible. Confident? Not really, but would’ve loved to have the opportunity instead of a gut-wrenching missed FG that brought up bad memories. 

Edited April 1 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for this.  I don't disagree much - you raise some really good points.   

 

I don't think Josh being the ultimate tractor carrying his team, which he is, makes Josh a good QB.  Michael Vick carried his team, too.   What I said about Josh, and have said for a long time, is that his number one job is to execute the offense at a very high level, and although he improved a lot at it last season, he still isn't elite.  

 

I've said something like this before.   Maybe you've got 40 offensive plays in the game, and the QB's job on 30-32 of them is to execute the play as designed, on schedule, making the right decisions and quality throws on 100% of them.   Mahomes does that.  Burrow does that.  Brady did that.   On the other 8 or 10 plays, the QB has to bail his team out, go off script and make something happen.   Allen may be the best in the league at that, and only Mahomes compares with him.   And in that category that Burrow falls down.   He's more like Brock Purdy or Tua on steroids - he's superb at all the throws that he can make on script, but if the on-script play isn't there, things tend to fall apart with him.  

 

Josh needs to be better on those on-script plays.  

 

Here's the problem with on-script plays for a QB in the NFL:

 

The other 10 players on offense need to do their job and be on the same page as Allen.

 

So was it Allen or Gabe more to blame for multiple incompletenes along with a few interceptions on option routes that happened during the season? Was it Allen or Dawkins more to blame for the incomplete pass to Shakir at the end of the drive in the KC game? 

 

Multiple examples of this.

 

Also, I disagree on your assessment of Mahomes. Mahomes is just as scattershot as Allen is, if not moreso, at executing plays as designed and on schedule. 

 

I think your assessment of Allen lacks the nuanced focus of what's actually happening on the OL. 

 

Which statement here do you think is more true:

 

Josh Allen has let down his OL throughout his career by getting unnecessarily sacked and pressured when he could have gotten the ball to the WR as determined by the playcall.

 

OR

 

Josh Allen has made his OLs look better throughout his career by avoiding pressure, sacks, and making incredible plays only he and maybe a couple other guys can make.

 

??????????????

 

Based on your argument, I would assume you believe statement 1 is the more true statement.

 

I'm not a film buff, but I listen to and read a lot of them. Based on your criteria of 75% (30-32 out of 40), I think Josh is actually already pretty Elite even in the category you don't think he is.

 

Frankly, I also don't think that when your QB rips off an unscripted 50+ yard TD run in a playoff game that it's an indication of anything other than greatness.

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Butting in here, but I think you're both right.   It is certainly true that Allen's performances in the playoffs have never been the principal reason for losses.  There are plenty of fingers to point in a lot of directions, and Allen may not even have been the #1 suspect. 

 

And while I'm not convinced Allen should have thrown for the first down instead targeting Shakir, I am absolutely sure that his mastery of the mental game is what Allen needs.  That's what will define his true greatness.   And just because he hasn't necessarily crapped the bed in the playoffs, having a more effective QB managing the game will make the regular season easier, make it possible to coast into division championships instead of scrambling to get there, make him tougher to game plan for, etc. etc. etc.   

 

I have no doubt Allen needs to get better. 

 

How about his supporting cast and coaching?

[Billsatlastin2018]

16 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Where is all this negative talk about Josh?   I haven't heard it, but I don't watch or listen to many of the sports shows. 

 

I've said over and over here that Josh needs to get better.  For all his extraordinary talents, what wins in the NFL is consistent execution of the play that is called, with the right choices and with accurate throws.   Mahomes and Burrows both are better than Josh in that category.  Where Josh excels is on the six to ten plays where things break down and you need someone to make a play.  Josh is outstanding then.  It's the other plays where he needs to be better. 

On the first most critical Bills-Chiefs games, I have long ago made my decision about who was responsible for that HO Shame FUBAR- ‘13 seconds’!

That’s ALL on McD.

 

But I am interested in your opinion on the second one- last January. The Bills took over with 8:23 to go and dink and dunked down the field over 16 plays and chewing up about 7 minutes. Up to 2:42 to go, they were executing the classic game management to beat Mahomes. Score with seconds or no seconds to go ala the @Ravens rain game a few years back.

 

And then, they lost their focus and collective minds. Because giving the ball back to Mahomes with 2TOs and 1:30 would have been asinine. oNLY Allen should have been running on First Down torun that clock down. And at the 2MW, the ONLY intention, should have been to make that final First Down and have the Chiefs burn their TOs.

 

Leaving the Bills, at almost worst- a short FG to tie or the killer TD with seconds to go.

 

My question. Was that Allen who deviated from that plan or if not, whom?

Why did they try and score on 2nd Down?

[90sBills]

17 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

The Bills stopped Mahomes in the regular season on his last drive. It’s certainly possible. Confident? Not really, but would’ve loved to have the opportunity instead of a gut-wrenching missed FG that brought up bad memories. 

If it wasn’t clear before it should be absolutely clear now that Mahomes and KC is different in the playoffs when it’s win or go home. He and KC have a survival gear that’s not present with the Bills. Also their offense was moving the ball at will throughout the game so to think they wouldn’t be able to at the end is kinda wishful. Look how easily they picked up that 1st to close out after the missed fg. 
 

So yeah let’s just disregard all those regular season games against KC because they mean squat when it comes down to crunch time. We keep touting those regular season wins against them and some fans were overly confident before this last game. Hopefully this latest lesson reminder will stick going forward. 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I’m sorry but I disagree. Lamar as a 2 time MVP getter is pretty much a lock for HoF.

 

I think Allen and Lamar will both be in there.

 

I agree with you regarding Lamar, but I think it's stupid that he's probably more of a lock for the HOF than Josh right now.

 

Josh has almost 60 more TDs over the span of his career (both drafted in 2018), lots more wins, lots more total yards, lots more 4th Quarter Comebacks, lots more Game Winning Drives, lots more playoff wins, etc.

 

Yet....

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I agree with you regarding Lamar, but I think it's stupid that he's probably more of a lock for the HOF than Josh right now.

 

Josh has almost 60 more TDs over the span of his career (both drafted in 2018), lots more wins, lots more total yards, lots more 4th Quarter Comebacks, lots more Game Winning Drives, lots more playoff wins, etc.

 

Yet....

Hardware just matters to the HoF. I don’t think there’s a 2 time MVP who ISN’T in the HoF.

 

it’s sorta like the old Eli Manning debate. Was he a HoF player year after year? No. Does winning two SB’s almost assuredly get him in? YUP.

[Chicken Boo]

You know what will help him get that elusive Super Bowl ring? 

 

A defensive end at #28 on April 25th.  That's what I've been told.  😒

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

22 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

by the media and non-Bills fans seems to be the trend this offseason. He’s getting the label of a guy that can’t and never will get it done. A “poor man’s Roethlisberger” or Phillip Rivers (who I think he’s already surpassed in 6 years.) Guys like Lamar Jackson get flack, but the flat out hating of Allen has been absolutely ridiculous lately and it’s everywhere, I’m not really bothered by it, I’m just wondering where it’s all coming from? Ignorance and sheep mentality? Whether he sniffs a SB in his life time or not, he’s going to be a HOFer on pure numbers alone. 
 

I’ve watched every one of his games as most of us have and he’s clearly not the problem. The turnover stat is so overblown and is on par w/ most of the top QBs in the league. 78 picks to Mahomes 63 over 6 years. That’s 2.5 more interceptions per season than Mahomes if you average it out. Not really that much in a 17 game span and most of them don’t usually affect the outcome of the game as the Bills have one of the best regular season records in the NFL since Allen was drafted. 

 

Who's criticizing Josh Allen? Give me names.