PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[Jrb1979]

51 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

We have been saying the same thing pretty much the whole time. We just expect a different outcome. We absolutely agree that they are going to adjust the pricing depending on how these club seats sell. The Bills have a revenue target of $200M from PSLs (at least I think that’s what it is). The sale of the club seats will leave a “new target” and then the sale of lower bowl seats will leave another new target. 
 

Where we disagree is that they’ll struggle with the sale of the less expensive areas. Bills fans have ALWAYS found the money to support the Bills (at least when they are good). The average household income in Erie County is $84k and the median is $67k. Those are not big numbers. The cheapest ticket to Bills games was $168 last year, top 5 in the league. The lower priced seats have never been a problem. It is the clubs and suites that are tougher. I understand that it goes against some general economic trends but that is just how it has been for them.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2023/09/06/nfl-ticket-prices-2023-cheapest-most-expensive-prices/70722888007/

 

 

The $168 has to be the secondary market cause if you go by this site the Bills average ticket price is $101 and second to the bottom. 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193595/average-ticket-price-in-the-nfl-by-team/

[CodeMonkey]

13 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Why does it? They could DVR and go out for pizza like you do. Perhaps they will prefer it to going to the stadium as well. 

 

The point is, they are being forced into that because the NFL owners do not want to pay for their own place of business. If they like the end result doesn't matter.  Plus some, maybe most, would prefer the stadium experience if that's what their families have been doing for generations.

18 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Agreed.

 

When I said #1, I meant one league in a single country.  FIFA is in over 200 nations and 700 Leagues and yet the NFL is right behind them in total revenue….pretty wild.

And would also imply they could/should pay for their own places of business instead of charging their fans up front?

Edited April 2 by CodeMonkey

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

The $168 has to be the secondary market cause if you go by this site the Bills average ticket price is $101 and second to the bottom. 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193595/average-ticket-price-in-the-nfl-by-team/

That’s correct

[Mr Info]

15 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s correct

Bills had 7th highest resale ticket value in NFL for 2023. It was $419 which is a good increase from the 2022 resale value of $224.

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/nfl-ticket-prices-every-team/

Edited April 2 by Mr Info

[mrags]

5 minutes ago, Mr Info said:

Bills had 7th highest resale ticket value in NFL for 2023. It was $419 which is a good increase from the 2022 resale value of $224.

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/nfl-ticket-prices-every-team/

So hard to gauge anything based on resale value. I doubled my ticket prices at face value in 4 of the 6 regular season games I sold. Didn’t lose any money on the other 2. As far as the playoffs I almost doubled my money on the Chiefs game but took a loss in the Steelers game. The weather was not helpful those weeks. 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

So hard to gauge anything based on resale value. I doubled my ticket prices at face value in 4 of the 6 regular season games I sold. Didn’t lose any money on the other 2. As far as the playoffs I almost doubled my money on the Chiefs game but took a loss in the Steelers game. The weather was not helpful those weeks. 

You sold 6/8 games and Terry didn’t come after you for a resellers license?

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Where we disagree is that they’ll struggle with the sale of the less expensive areas. Bills fans have ALWAYS found the money to support the Bills (at least when they are good).

 

That's an interesting comment, because some fans have taken into consideration that once the new stadium is open, Allen will be sniffing his back-9 and most of what they pay for could quote easily be another drought era.  

 

Just sayin' as I know it's been mentioned here as well.  It's not as if it's a big secret.  

 

The question of course is to what extent, if at all, sales will be hindered.  We won't know until the process is finished, or at least well underway.  

 

 

[papazoid]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

You sold 6/8 games and Terry didn’t come after you for a resellers license?

 

that scalper crackdown announcement like the Sabres, won't happen until the Bills have all the PSL money in their pocket

[mrags]

20 minutes ago, Mango said:

You sold 6/8 games and Terry didn’t come after you for a resellers license?

lol. Didn’t even have to claim on my taxes. Didn’t profit more than 5k 

14 minutes ago, papazoid said:

 

that scalper crackdown announcement like the Sabres, won't happen until the Bills have all the PSL money in their pocket

Seriously doubt that’s happening. People are too worked up over it. There’s 8-9 homes games a year in football. There’s 40+ in hockey. There’s a difference. 

[cdl 716]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Good luck!!! Let us know how it goes

I think @Mr Info and others have posted similar information, but they are pushing three sections/tiers for club seats:  Founders Club (100K for two PSLs), East Club (40K for two PSLs), and a 100 level section (can’t remember the name) on the 50 yard line (30K for two PSLs) but no coverage or heat.  My current seats in 235 are most comparable to the East Club…a two level club on the visitors sideline with heat and full coverage.  Reserved a couple in the East Club, section C227 which is around the 25 yard line depending on where your seats are.

 

The payment options were the same as others have described, pay in full, 20% down and 3 year payment plan with no interest, and a 10 year financed option.

[PBF81]

28 minutes ago, papazoid said:

 

that scalper crackdown announcement like the Sabres, won't happen until the Bills have all the PSL money in their pocket

 

Scalper crackdown?  What, they're going after Ticketmaster?  

 

 

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

12 minutes ago, cdl 716 said:

I think @Mr Info and others have posted similar information, but they are pushing three sections/tiers for club seats:  Founders Club (100K for two PSLs), East Club (40K for two PSLs), and a 100 level section (can’t remember the name) on the 50 yard line (30K for two PSLs) but no coverage or heat.  My current seats in 235 are most comparable to the East Club…a two level club on the visitors sideline with heat and full coverage.  Reserved a couple in the East Club, section C227 which is around the 25 yard line depending on where your seats are.

 

The payment options were the same as others have described, pay in full, 20% down and 3 year payment plan with no interest, and a 10 year financed option.

Thank you!! Covered and heated are important to me but a total dealbreaker for her. I’ll be looking at the East Club as well it sounds like. I was hoping that those were the ones that were $15k. I like the 3 year interest free option. I thought it was going to be shorter so feel like that’s a small win.

[WotAGuy]

59 minutes ago, Mango said:

You sold 6/8 games and Terry didn’t come after you for a resellers license?

And gouging the taxpayers who paid to have the stadium built in 1973 by doubling the ticket price.  Einstein probably has an equation to prove this is  an affront to Bills fans everywhere.  If the tickets were even sold to Bills fans.
Outrageous I tell ya! 
 

 

 

Edited April 2 by WotAGuy

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Mr Info said:

Bills had 7th highest resale ticket value in NFL for 2023. It was $419 which is a good increase from the 2022 resale value of $224.

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/nfl-ticket-prices-every-team/

 

Just FYI for all - Resale value does not indicate what fans will pay for seasons or PSL’s.

 

Resale tickets prices are based off very different market economics. These are fans that often only go to 1 or 2 games per year - therefore they justify significantly higher prices because they don’t need to pay for the remaining 6 or 7 games.

[Einstein]

27 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Scalper crackdown?  What, they're going after Ticketmaster?  

 

 

 

The Bills decided a couple years ago to get into bed with official resellers. They then shut down the ticket office that sells group rates. 

[cdl 716]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Thank you!! Covered and heated are important to me but a total dealbreaker for her. I’ll be looking at the East Club as well it sounds like. I was hoping that those were the ones that were $15k. I like the 3 year interest free option. I thought it was going to be shorter so feel like that’s a small win.

My sense is the clubs are selling very well so far.  The East Club has two sections, C225 and C226, that are roughly between the 40 yard lines and both are completely sold out.  Good luck with your appointment…it’s next week, correct?

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Just FYI for all - Resale value does not indicate what fans will pay for seasons or PSL’s.

 

Resale tickets prices are based off very different market economics. These are fans that often only go to 1 or 2 games per year - therefore they justify significantly higher prices because they don’t need to pay for the remaining 6 or 7 games.

Well sure, but it absolutely correlates to demand. The same goes for the Bills fans that travel to games. Many people spend the entire cost of a season on away games. The market has shown that people are willing to spend on the Bills. There’s a waiting list for season tickets, resale pricing through the roof and a fan base that travels as well as any fan base in sports. I’m not sure why we should think PSLs will change all of this? The demand is at an all-time high. The timing is PERFECT for the Bills. 

Just now, cdl 716 said:

My sense is the clubs are selling very well so far.  The East Club has two sections, C225 and C226, that are roughly between the 40 yard lines and both are completely sold out.  Good luck with your appointment…it’s next week, correct?

Yeah, it’s next Tuesday. I’m hopeful that we will be able to get something comparable to where we are now but who knows. 

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, CodeMonkey said:

 

The point is, they are being forced into that because the NFL owners do not want to pay for their own place of business. If they like the end result doesn't matter.  Plus some, maybe most, would prefer the stadium experience if that's what their families have been doing for generations.

And would also imply they could/should pay for their own places of business instead of charging their fans up front?

This is not uncommon in the NFL. That’s just how it is. Bills fans have enjoyed a bygone era NFL economy for about a quarter century longer than anyone else. It wasn’t going to last forever, and now here we are. 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Well sure, but it absolutely correlates to demand.

Secondary market demand.

In behavioral economics we have something known as reference dependence which suggests that buyers evaluate their choices relative to a specific reference point. What this means for primary and secondary market demand is that when purchasing resale tickets the reference point of the buyer shifts to factors such as impulsiveness and willingness to pay more for attending only one game. "But honey, its the ONE game I go to all year". This shift in reference points can lead to higher prices in the secondary market, which does not correlate with the demand or pricing in the primary market.

Eg: John Doe only goes to 1 game per year and therefore purchases resale has no affect on season ticket demand. But he does an affect on resale ticket demand.
 

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The same goes for the Bills fans that travel to games. Many people spend the entire cost of a season on away games.

You point out a big problem for the Bills and something they have always struggled with. The fan base traveling well is part of the reason why the Bills struggle to charge peak NFL rates.

Many northern Bills fans would rather spend $2,500 on flying to Miami, spending a week on the beach, and then watching the Bills kick the Dolphins butt, rather than spend that same allotment of coin on a season package that can not be enjoyed by the portion of the family that is not into sports.

What i'm really interested to see is how many people end up defaulting on their PSL.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Secondary market demand.

In behavioral economics we have something known as reference dependence which suggests that buyers evaluate their choices relative to a specific reference point. What this means for primary and secondary market demand is that when purchasing resale tickets the reference point of the buyer shifts to factors such as impulsiveness and willingness to pay more for attending only one game. "But honey, its the ONE game I go to all year". This shift in reference points can lead to higher prices in the secondary market, which does not correlate with the demand or pricing in the primary market.

Eg: John Doe only goes to 1 game per year and therefore purchases resale has no affect on season ticket demand. But he does an affect on resale ticket demand.
 

You point out a big problem for the Bills and something they have always struggled with. The fan base traveling well is part of the reason why the Bills struggle to charge peak NFL rates.

Many northern Bills fans would rather spend $2,500 on flying to Miami, spending a week on the beach, and then watching the Bills kick the Dolphins butt, rather than spend that same allotment of coin on a season package that can not be enjoyed by the portion of the family that is not into sports.

What i'm really interested to see is how many people end up defaulting on their PSL.

When there are no primary seats available (again demand) there is ONLY secondary demand. We can judge demand by primary (waiting list), secondary (high priced tickets on the secondary market), and the Bills on the road (travel as well as any fan base). I’m not sure what you’re trying to dispute? The demand for the Bills is through the roof and ALL metrics support that. When you have a waiting list, you couldn’t have more primary demand. People are forced to the secondary market to consume the product. They value it enough to pay inflated prices. You’re grasping at straws to jam through the narrative that you’re trying to create. Right now, people aren’t picking Miami or season tickets. They are either doing both or picking Miami BECAUSE they can’t get season tickets. The demand is enormous.
 

I think that the default angle is certainly possible. The Bills won’t care so much on the lower priced ones. If someone’s PSL is $2500 and they default after $1500 it doesn’t move the needle. There won’t be enough of those situations to move the needle. If people start defaulting on the $50k ones the Bills will be after them.

 

FWIW, the Bills used to sue people for defaulting on their club seat contracts. That stopped about 15-20 years ago because the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.