PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Keep in mind, according to the Bills, 1 in 4 aren't renewing. That's pretty bad for most businesses to lose a quarter of your customers. And if I had to guess, those numbers are a bit fudged. They likely include those who say they will renew, but at a lower package. Meaning, they have to be called back in in a few months. Will they *actually* renew at that lower package? hmm, maybe not. 

The real number, with non-fudged numbers, could be 1 in 3 fans not renewing for all we know. 

Even using the Bills numbers, they are down over 20 basis points from last year in renewals.

90% is always the renewal rate goal in sports. You get an award in the NBA at 90%. The Bills retention, especially recently, has been well north of that. The NFL is generally closer to 100%.

 

That is going to be the case here as well. We “know” at this point that 3 out of 4 have said yes but that is a small, small, small, small percentage of the total universe. It is also, FAR AND AWAY the most expensive options. So far, they are through maybe 5% of the seats. I just got called last Thursday and am a club seat holder with 20-30 years of seniority. It’s probably closer to 2%.

 

The PSLs that are <$5k will be sold at 95% plus. That will be at least 70% of the stadium. This isn’t going to be the issue that some are predicting. Legends knows EXACTLY what they are doing. They’re the best at this. The PSLs selling will not be a problem here. The vocal minority does not represent what is actually happening / what will happen. 

Edited April 2 by Kirby Jackson

[Virgil]

I think they will have far less than 90% for what they consider to be the new club seats (lower level between the 40's), but will make up for it with endzone and upper deck renewals.  

 

My biggest fear for this new stadium was that good seats were going to all become premium, and I think that's going to be the case.  

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, mrags said:

Yup. And add in the fact that the new stadium has 10k less seats and there’s a 7k person waiting list. Got ya 

 

I think we'll have a clearer picture by the end of summer.  It's interesting to watch unfold I must say.  

 

One thing's for sure, I'm always skeptical of "official numbers" for just about anything where something is being sold.  LOL  Reminds me of this ... 

 

 

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, Virgil said:

I think they will have far less than 90% for what they consider to be the new club seats (lower level between the 40's), but will make up for it with endzone and upper deck renewals.  

 

My biggest fear for this new stadium was that good seats were going to all become premium, and I think that's going to be the case.  

From what little information I can gather, the least expensive seats in the upper levels are going to be covered. The uncovered seats are the fairly expensive lower bowl seats in the bottom half of those sections. 
 

The people claiming they aren’t going to go from a present 100-level seat to a club seat in the new stadium may find the view and overhead coverage is pretty attractive for a cheaper seat up top. 

[Virgil]

4 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

From what little information I can gather, the least expensive seats in the upper levels are going to be covered. The uncovered seats are the fairly expensive lower bowl seats in the bottom half of those sections. 
 

The people claiming they aren’t going to go from a present 100-level seat to a club seat in the new stadium may find the view and overhead coverage is pretty attractive for a cheaper seat up top. 

 

I get that, I do.  And I know I'm coming off very GOML, but it's just frustrating to see this trend finally hit the Bills.  I appreciated that you the fancy rich could have their club and box seats between the 40's, but there were also regular lower level seats for everyone else.  Everyone got a chance to sit with a premium view.  Now, you have to go somewhere else, even though I know the upper deck isn't terrible.  

[34-78-83]

5 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

From what little information I can gather, the least expensive seats in the upper levels are going to be covered. The uncovered seats are the fairly expensive lower bowl seats in the bottom half of those sections. 
 

The people claiming they aren’t going to go from a present 100-level seat to a club seat in the new stadium may find the view and overhead coverage is pretty attractive for a cheaper seat up top. 

There's not going to be a bad view in the house... Even in the current stadium, there really aren't too many. It's all a matter of perspective.

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Keep in mind, according to the Bills, 1 in 4 aren't renewing. That's pretty bad for most businesses to lose a quarter of your customers. And if I had to guess, those numbers are a bit fudged. They likely include those who say they will renew, but at a lower package. Meaning, they have to be called back in in a few months. Will they *actually* renew at that lower package? hmm, maybe not. 

The real number, with non-fudged numbers, could be 1 in 3 fans not renewing for all we know. 

Even using the Bills numbers, they are down over 20 basis points from last year in renewals.

 

Well, if 3 in 4 renew, that'd be 75% of 70k or so, or 53k.  Figure then that 3 in 4 on the waiting list are still interested, they'll have nearly sold out based on that.  As Kirby Jackson says, may simply be a vocal minority.  My view stems from just a handful, maybe 6-8 people that I know that currently have STs.  Only one says he'll pay more to attend games, didn't even mention the section.  The others have expressed that they've been turned off by the rising prices as it's been, but they're at their limits cost wise.  Who knows, maybe they'll change their tune.  One interesting tidbit however in discussing with them, is them realizing that Allen's not going to be here forever, and that's a big part of it because none of them would think about paying the current asking prices if Allen weren't here now.  

 

I guess I'm simply associated with that vocal minority, even though I don't think that they've been vocal.  LOL  

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

15 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I think they will have far less than 90% for what they consider to be the new club seats (lower level between the 40's), but will make up for it with endzone and upper deck renewals.  

 

My biggest fear for this new stadium was that good seats were going to all become premium, and I think that's going to be the case.  

That was the reason that a refurb was never an option. The lower level seats, between the 20’s were the most underpriced seats in all of sports. The Bills knew that. In order to “right size” the stadium they needed to get way more money for the best locations. They needed the clean slate of the new stadium to provide that cover. While they will give the people with 1965 seniority the opportunity to retain their location, it will be at a significantly higher price that more accurately reflects the market for those seats around the league. Those are the people that’ll be most impacted here.
 

Many say that they won’t downgrade but we will see. I’ve seen that story before when we did a reconfiguration. 75% of the people said that there was no way that they would go to a lesser location, especially at the same price that they were already paying. 90% of those people did end up downgrading when all was said and done. It was a small handful that “stuck to their guns.” I suspect that will be the case here as well. 

Edited April 2 by Kirby Jackson

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

There's not going to be a bad view in the house... Even in the current stadium, there really aren't too many. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

It is a matter of perspective, but keep in mind the TV option.  I personally enjoy the view from the uppers, it offers a better whole-field-of-view view, but not everyone values that.  There have been a lot of comments about watching on TV instead.  

 

Again, who knows, but watching it unfold is incredibly interesting for Buffalo.  

 

 

[cdl 716]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m in 237. 

237

I’m in 235 and have my stadium experience appointment at 1245 pm today.  Should be interesting.

[papazoid]

13 hours ago, papazoid said:

friend of mine who sits in LOWER  BOWL  goes for his experience tomorrow (tues)

 

1965 seniority, 50 yard line

 

should have some good info in 24 hours

 

P.S. of the 25% who didn't agree to new club level  seats immediately on first offer....i bet more than half of them get seats in a less expensive area on their second chance meeting. so that initial 75% will likely go to 85-90%

 

FALSE ALARM.....APOLOGIES.....my friend is confused....his "experience" today is just the normal STH RELOCATION process from current stadium.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, cdl 716 said:

I’m in 235 and have my stadium experience appointment at 1245 pm today.  Should be interesting.

Good luck!!! Let us know how it goes

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, papazoid said:

 

FALSE ALARM.....APOLOGIES.....my friend is confused....his "experience" today is just the normal STH RELOCATION process from current stadium.

 

Tell him to relocate to the 300s so he can afford his new stadium seat location. 

[plenzmd1]

 

 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

If I was looking for a bunch of passive aggressive nonsense, I’d talk to my wife.

 

N

I’m sorry, MOST billionaires are proper shite, better?

 

If i was looking for just pure nonsense, I would talk directly to you

12 hours ago, Einstein said:

Impressive seniority. His Bills fan career will now span 3 home stadiums..

While we did not have seasons, my first games were at the Rockpile. Sure several of us on here have memories of that joint. 

 

21 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That was the reason that a refurb was never an option. The lower level seats, between the 20’s were the most underpriced seats in all of sports. The Bills knew that. In order to “right size” the stadium they needed to get way more money for the best locations. They needed the clean slate of the new stadium to provide that cover. While they will give the people with 1965 seniority the opportunity to retain their location, it will be at a significantly higher price that more accurately reflects the market for those seats around the league. Those are the people that’ll be most impacted here.
 

Many say that they won’t downgrade but we will see. I’ve seen that story before when we did a reconfiguration. 75% of the people said that there was no way that they would go to a lesser location, especially at the same price that they were already paying. 90% of those people did end up downgrading when all was said and done. It was a small handful that “stuck to their guns.” I suspect that will be the case here as well. 

I always felt the lower bowl being below grade was the number one reason refurbishing just could not work. Prolly goes hand  in hand that  without making those lower bowl concourses any wider and   thus more accommodating, tough to charge market rates for a subpar experience.

 

 

Looking forward to when the first lower bowl folks go.. had enough of hearing from you stinky club seat holders, you are all rich and snobs and according to so many here vile people and deserve our disdain!!

[Virgil]

34 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Many say that they won’t downgrade but we will see. I’ve seen that story before when we did a reconfiguration. 75% of the people said that there was no way that they would go to a lesser location, especially at the same price that they were already paying. 90% of those people did end up downgrading when all was said and done. It was a small handful that “stuck to their guns.” I suspect that will be the case here as well. 

 

I can only speak for my family, and we are most likely going to get rid of the season tickets due to all of this.  A major reason to have seasons is to have those seats locked in.  If they weren't where they were, we wouldn't have kept them.  

 

For us, it'll make more sense just to buy single game tickets, pick where we sit, and let the ticket owner eat the PSL.  Gameday tickets prices drop like crazy on the day of.

Outside of the season opener in the new stadium, I'm sure we won't have issues getting tickets

[mrags]

17 minutes ago, papazoid said:

 

FALSE ALARM.....APOLOGIES.....my friend is confused....his "experience" today is just the normal STH RELOCATION process from current stadium.

 

Based on what has been presented as far as club members getting first crack this makes more sense. I just relocated last week 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

I can only speak for my family, and we are most likely going to get rid of the season tickets due to all of this.  A major reason to have seasons is to have those seats locked in.  If they weren't where they were, we wouldn't have kept them.  

 

For us, it'll make more sense just to buy single game tickets, pick where we sit, and let the ticket owner eat the PSL.  Gameday tickets prices drop like crazy on the day of.

Outside of the season opener in the new stadium, I'm sure we won't have issues getting tickets

If you are lower level, between the 20’s, you were going to be the people most impacted by the new stadium. I work with a guy that has 1960 seniority and he’s at the 46 yard line, 30 rows up. He’s terrified of what’s coming for him (and rightfully so). Of all of the people in the stadium, that’s where the most “turnover” will happen. That sucks for you and others in that situation.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

90% is always the goal.

 

Yes, and the Bills are nearly 25 basis points lower than their own numbers from the past few years.

 

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It is also, FAR AND AWAY the most expensive options.

 

Yes, but this is typically offset due to the fact that club ticket holders are more often than not economically advantaged in comparison to fans in other section. Ie: Fans earning $130k per year paying $10k per year in seasons is equivalent to fans earning $50k per year paying close to $4k per year for seasons.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

The PSLs that are <$5k will be sold at 95% plus.

 

This would be highly unusual and very uncharacteristic of everything we know about price sensitivity and elasticity of demand. Which is to say that lower income fans that often make up the less pricier areas of the stadium are generally more price-sensitive, meaning their demand for tickets is more elastic. This elasticity is due to their inability (and sometimes unwillingness) to purchase tickets with even a small increase in price, as the cost represents a larger portion of their discretionary spending.

 

This is exactly why the Bills are selling the club tickets first. They are obtaining a benchmark for sales with fans who have higher discretionary income and are likely adjusting their pricing for fans in other sections of the stadium based off of this data. When prices increase across the board, the demand among these fans might drop more sharply than among higher-income fans, who are less sensitive to price changes.

 

The way most businesses get around this is by increasing the amount of available quantity at lower prices, thereby offsetting any reduced demand (on a percentage basis). What is interesting about the Bills situation is that they have reduced quantity available for lower priced seats, as the club seats now take up a much larger portion of the stadium AND they already reduced the stadium by close to 10k seats. 

 

Which again, is exactly why they doing clubs first. They’re going to use clubs as a benchmark to adjust the less pricier areas.

 

 

Edited April 2 by Einstein

[Neo]

On 3/27/2024 at 8:46 AM, Mango said:

Unsure if this is a joke or not.
 

The Buffalo Bills are not playing in a free market economy.
 

They took nearly a billion dollars in public subsidy. 

 

Christ.

 

 

You’re missing a market.

 

It would be a subsidy if the Bills couldn’t move.   “You’re not allowed to go anywhere, but we’ll subsidize you with tax payer money.”

 

It is a market because the Bills are able to move.   “We’ll give you tax payer money to stay, knowing you don’t have to.”

 

Municipalities without franchises are together part of the market.  There are more than 32 cities that would like an NFL franchise.

 

The “municipality” of NY State and Erie County “bought” thirty years of affiliation with NFL football in return for a construction and maintenance contribution.  They paid fair market value.

 

The Buffalo Bills most certainly are playing in a free market economy.  They’re playing in one of the best of all.

 

There is one thing that’s interesting to me in this supply / demand, hero / villain, tome.   It’s the business strategy.   By leaking section by section, highest to lowest, both valuation AND game theory come into play.   This is a reverse auction disguised as a sale.   Start with the highest price and bidders pass at their peril.  Passers know they’re out of the current round but don’t know the offering (availability/location/cost) in the next round.

 

”Thank you for inviting me.   I am unwilling to pay $100 thousand for my two seats as mapped into the new stadium.  Can you tell me what will be available to me next, and at what price?”

 

”No, but thank you for coming, today.   We’ll put you into a pool with others, not telling you how many, and offer you something later, not telling you what, for a price, not telling you how much.”

 

I can assure you the sales team was briefed, trained and scripted on strategy and tactics.   This, of course, happens everywhere and isn’t at all nefarious.   The stakes are simply very high for passionate buyers.

[Kirby Jackson]

20 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yes, and the Bills are nearly 25 basis points lower than their own numbers from the past few years.

 

 

Yes, but this is typically offset due to the fact that club ticket holders are more often than not economically advantaged in comparison to fans in other section. Ie: Fans earning $130k per year paying $10k per year in seasons is equivalent to fans earning $50k per year paying close to $4k per year for seasons.

 

 

 

This would be highly unusual and very uncharacteristic of everything we know about price sensitivity and elasticity of demand. Which is to say that lower income fans that often make up the less pricier areas of the stadium are generally more price-sensitive, meaning their demand for tickets is more elastic. This elasticity is due to their inability (and sometimes unwillingness) to purchase tickets with even a small increase in price, as the cost represents a larger portion of their discretionary spending.

 

This is exactly why the Bills are selling the club tickets first. They are obtaining a benchmark for sales with fans who have higher discretionary income and are likely adjusting their pricing for fans in other sections of the stadium based off of this data. When prices increase across the board, the demand among these fans might drop more sharply than among higher-income fans, who are less sensitive to price changes.

 

The way most businesses get around this is by increasing the amount of available quantity at lower prices, thereby offsetting any reduced demand. What is interesting about the Bills situation is that they have reduced quantity available for lower priced seats, as the club seats now take up a much larger portion of the stadium AND they already reduced the stadium by close to 10k seats. 

 

Which again, is exactly why they doing clubs first. They’re going to use clubs as a benchmark to adjust the less pricier areas.

 

 

We have been saying the same thing pretty much the whole time. We just expect a different outcome. We absolutely agree that they are going to adjust the pricing depending on how these club seats sell. The Bills have a revenue target of $200M from PSLs (at least I think that’s what it is). The sale of the club seats will leave a “new target” and then the sale of lower bowl seats will leave another new target. 
 

Where we disagree is that they’ll struggle with the sale of the less expensive areas. Bills fans have ALWAYS found the money to support the Bills (at least when they are good). The average household income in Erie County is $84k and the median is $67k. Those are not big numbers. The cheapest ticket to Bills games was $168 last year, top 5 in the league. The lower priced seats have never been a problem. It is the clubs and suites that are tougher. I understand that it goes against some general economic trends but that is just how it has been for them.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2023/09/06/nfl-ticket-prices-2023-cheapest-most-expensive-prices/70722888007/