PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[WotAGuy]

  On 4/2/2024 at 9:51 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

When there are no primary seats available (again demand) there is ONLY secondary demand. We can judge demand by primary (waiting list), secondary (high priced tickets on the secondary market), and the Bills on the road (travel as well as any fan base). I’m not sure what you’re trying to dispute? The demand for the Bills is through the roof and ALL metrics support that. When you have a waiting list, you couldn’t have more primary demand. People are forced to the secondary market to consume the product. They value it enough to pay inflated prices. You’re grasping at straws to jam through the narrative that you’re trying to create. Right now, people aren’t picking Miami or season tickets. They are either doing both or picking Miami BECAUSE they can’t get season tickets. The demand is enormous.
 

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Long-winded answer with math equations incoming in 3, 2, 1…..

[Jrb1979]

  On 4/2/2024 at 9:51 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

When there are no primary seats available (again demand) there is ONLY secondary demand. We can judge demand by primary (waiting list), secondary (high priced tickets on the secondary market), and the Bills on the road (travel as well as any fan base). I’m not sure what you’re trying to dispute? The demand for the Bills is through the roof and ALL metrics support that. When you have a waiting list, you couldn’t have more primary demand. People are forced to the secondary market to consume the product. They value it enough to pay inflated prices. You’re grasping at straws to jam through the narrative that you’re trying to create. Right now, people aren’t picking Miami or season tickets. They are either doing both or picking Miami BECAUSE they can’t get season tickets. The demand is enormous.
 

I think that the default angle is certainly possible. The Bills won’t care so much on the lower priced ones. If someone’s PSL is $2500 and they default after $1500 it doesn’t move the needle. There won’t be enough of those situations to move the needle. If people start defaulting on the $50k ones the Bills will be after them.

 

FWIW, the Bills used to sue people for defaulting on their club seat contracts. That stopped about 15-20 years ago because the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.

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Right now it's enormous. With so far only 75% of club seat ticket holders opting to renew it's not a good thing. I really do think they are going have issues selling all the PSLs. 

[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:13 PM, Jrb1979 said:

Right now it's enormous. With so far only 75% of club seat ticket holders opting to renew it's not a good thing. I really do think they are going have issues selling all the PSLs. 

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We have no idea if that’s a good thing or bad thing. We have no idea what the Bills thought they’d sell in this first wave. They haven’t gotten through the club seat holders yet. I’m next Tuesday. We also have no idea if that’s an actual number. We also don’t know 75% of what?

 

There are a lot of people here connecting dots as to what they think will happen. This is all despite the fact that the actual data that we have to go off supports MASSIVE demand for the Bills. It’ll play out but if we are reading tea leaves, demand is higher than it’s ever been.

[Einstein]

  On 4/2/2024 at 9:51 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

When there are no primary seats available (again demand) there is ONLY secondary demand.

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You're conflating the current stadium with the new stadium. There is no debate that the new stadium has high demand. We are talking about the new stadium. Where 1 in 4 customers are giving their tickets up. As stated earlier, I expect a similar outcome with lower priced tickets, due to price elasticity. I believe the Bills expect it as well. They will model prices in the lower seats to percentage wise match club seats to obtain at least 75% buy in.

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:23 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

We have no idea if that’s a good thing or bad thing.

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We do know that losing 1 in 4 customers is a very, very bad thing.
 

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:23 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

We have no idea what the Bills thought they’d sell in this first wave. 

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If John Doe thought he would be poked in the eye, and then did get poked in the eye, it does not make the eye poke a good thing. It only means he accurately forecasted his eye poke.

[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:27 PM, Einstein said:

 

You're conflating the current stadium with the new stadium. There is no debate that the new stadium has high demand. We are talking about the new stadium. Where 1 in 4 customers are giving their tickets up. As stated earlier, I expect a similar outcome with lower priced tickets, due to price elasticity. I believe the Bills expect it as well. They will model prices in the lower seats to percentage wise match club seats to obtain at least 75% buy in.

We do know that losing 1 in 4 customers is a very, very bad thing.
 

If John Doe thought he would be poked in the eye, and then did get poked in the eye, it does not make the eye poke a good thing. It only means he accurately forecasted his eye poke.

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No, I’m not conflating it. The Bills CURRENTLY have a waiting list. That is the data that we have to go off of. They haven’t started selling to most of the people yet. 
 

75% of how many? If you don’t know that answer, it’s meaningless. What % of club seat holders have been called? How many club seats in the new stadium compared to current stadium? If we do not know those answers, which we don’t, we don’t have new stadium data that is meaningful. 

Edited April 2, 2024 by Kirby Jackson

[WotAGuy]

[WotAGuy]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:39 PM, Einstein said:

 

Maths upset you?

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Very much so.  When I joined in 2004, SDS told me very specifically “THERE WILL BE NO MATH”. 
 

 

[papazoid]

Only 1.6% of season-ticket account holders (all of whom have premium club-seat locations at the current stadium) have been invited to the Stadium Experience in Amherst  

 

Among the people who have been invited, 96% have visited the Stadium Experience or scheduled a visit, and 75% of the account holders who have visited have signed PSL agreements for club seats.

 

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-new-stadium-personal-seat-license-ryan-ohalloran-column/article_0fdb8c78-edc3-11ee-8861-b3348dac0c5b.html

 

 (of the 25% who didn't agree to new club level  seats immediately on first offer....i bet more than half of them get seats in a less expensive area on their second chance meeting. so that initial 75% will likely go to 85-90%)

Edited April 2, 2024 by papazoid

[PBF81]

  On 4/2/2024 at 7:18 PM, Einstein said:

 

The Bills decided a couple years ago to get into bed with official resellers. They then shut down the ticket office that sells group rates. 

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Wow, I did not know that. 

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:39 PM, Einstein said:

That's the benefit of percentages. We don't need to know of how many, we simply know that 1 out of every 4 people who currently pay money have decided to no longer pay money. That's significant. 

I also have a hunch about the waiting list. I'll confirm (or deny) it tomorrow morning.

Maths upset you?

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Lol, it’s not significant if it’s 1,000 seats. I’m a club seat holder with 20-30 years of seniority (not sure the exact number but think it’s like 28 years). I am not going until next Tuesday. 
 

We have no idea what percentage they expected of what has been shown. They  may not want it higher than that. They can then roll those locations into sponsorship packages and get significantly more than the PSL prices. That’s not uncommon at all. Again, you’re making assumptions without any info but a rumored 75% of some number have been accepted.

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:45 PM, PBF81 said:

 

Wow, I did not know that. 

 

 

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That’s been going on for WAY longer than that. That’s probably a 30 year relationship. ALL professional sports teams have relationships with resellers in 2024. They probably account for 5-10% of all season tickets.

[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:44 PM, papazoid said:

Only 1.6% of season-ticket account holders (all of whom have premium club-seat locations at the current stadium) have been invited to the Stadium Experience in Amherst

 

Among the people who have been invited, 96% have visited the Stadium Experience or scheduled a visit, and 75% of the account holders who have visited have signed PSL agreements for club seats.

 

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-new-stadium-personal-seat-license-ryan-ohalloran-column/article_0fdb8c78-edc3-11ee-8861-b3348dac0c5b.html

 

 (of the 25% who didn't agree to new club level  seats immediately on first offer....i bet more than half of them get seats in a less expensive area on their second chance meeting. so that initial 75% will likely go to 85-90%)

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So less than 1,000 seats at this point. People are creating narratives over 250 seats that haven’t been accounted for (yet). Lol, the chicken little aren’t going to like that. The Bills can move those in 3 phone calls.

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:51 PM, Einstein said:

That is absurd.

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With all due respect, it’s not rare. I’ve done it. Price out the people and roll it into sponsorship packages. That’s VERY common. They shook free 250 seats in the most expensive areas. The Senecas sponsorship deal will be significantly higher when those get offered to them.

 

I’ll elaborate in hopes of this making sense to people. Say the Bills have 100 $50K PSLs that they need to sell. They can sell those and collect $5M. They can leverage those seats to raise the pricing on advertising and other intangible assets. Let’s say that the Senecas spend $2M in advertising. The Bills can say, we will throw in 100 prime PSLs and the whole package will be $10M. The Bills now made an extra $3M by leveraging their demand.

Edited April 2, 2024 by Kirby Jackson

[mrags]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:44 PM, papazoid said:

Only 1.6% of season-ticket account holders (all of whom have premium club-seat locations at the current stadium) have been invited to the Stadium Experience in Amherst  

 

Among the people who have been invited, 96% have visited the Stadium Experience or scheduled a visit, and 75% of the account holders who have visited have signed PSL agreements for club seats.

 

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-new-stadium-personal-seat-license-ryan-ohalloran-column/article_0fdb8c78-edc3-11ee-8861-b3348dac0c5b.html

 

 (of the 25% who didn't agree to new club level  seats immediately on first offer....i bet more than half of them get seats in a less expensive area on their second chance meeting. so that initial 75% will likely go to 85-90%)

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[papazoid]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:44 PM, papazoid said:

Only 1.6% of season-ticket account holders (all of whom have premium club-seat locations at the current stadium) have been invited to the Stadium Experience in Amherst  

 

Among the people who have been invited, 96% have visited the Stadium Experience or scheduled a visit, and 75% of the account holders who have visited have signed PSL agreements for club seats.

 

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-new-stadium-personal-seat-license-ryan-ohalloran-column/article_0fdb8c78-edc3-11ee-8861-b3348dac0c5b.html

 

 (of the 25% who didn't agree to new club level  seats immediately on first offer....i bet more than half of them get seats in a less expensive area on their second chance meeting. so that initial 75% will likely go to 85-90%)

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"season-ticket ACCOUNT  HOLDERS".......safe to assume most account holders have at least two tix, some more. i myself have 6 tix

[Jrb1979]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:23 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

We have no idea if that’s a good thing or bad thing. We have no idea what the Bills thought they’d sell in this first wave. They haven’t gotten through the club seat holders yet. I’m next Tuesday. We also have no idea if that’s an actual number. We also don’t know 75% of what?

 

There are a lot of people here connecting dots as to what they think will happen. This is all despite the fact that the actual data that we have to go off supports MASSIVE demand for the Bills. It’ll play out but if we are reading tea leaves, demand is higher than it’s ever been.

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MASSIVE DEMAND at current prices and without PSLs.  The Bills aren't moving but I think you will see more buy tickets for 1-2 games on the secondary market opposed to buying seasons and PSLs. 

[Jrb1979]

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:02 PM, Einstein said:

Yeah. It was a shrewd business move but really screwed over fans. We have seen a lot of that under PSE.

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Wait til the new law takes affect. I'm sure once the new stadium opens they will crack down on those who re sell the majority of their tickets. 

[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 10:56 PM, Einstein said:

I see that math isn't your strong suit.

For those unaware, percentages matter. 

For example: When Nielsen announces that 120 million people watched the Super Bowl, they don't actually have boxes in 120 million homes. They use an algorithm that is predicated on a percentage that is a tiny number of the whole. They extrapolate this number to arrive at the whole. 

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1.6% of 62,000 is 1,000 seats (992 to be exact). Again, with all due respect, you’re trying to educate the wrong guy on how this works. 75% of 992 is 744. That’s what they are saying here. It may be time to bow out of this conversation. A change in screen name is probably in order as well.

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:02 PM, Einstein said:

Yeah. It was a shrewd business move but really screwed over fans. We have seen a lot of that under PSE.

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Lol, this has been going on WAY longer than that. This isn’t new 😂😂

[mrags]

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:05 PM, Jrb1979 said:

Wait til the new law takes affect. I'm sure once the new stadium opens they will crack down on those who re sell the majority of their tickets. 

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Can’t crack down if I “gift” them to someone not on Ticketmaster, after they “gifted” me $1k 

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:10 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

1.6% of 62,000 is 1,000 seats (992 to be exact). Again, with all due respect, you’re trying to educate the wrong guy on how this works. 75% of 992 is 744. That’s what they are saying here. It may be time to bow out of this conversation. A change in screen name is probably in order as well.

Lol, this has been going on WAY longer than that. This isn’t new 😂😂

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[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:02 PM, Jrb1979 said:

MASSIVE DEMAND at current prices and without PSLs.  The Bills aren't moving but I think you will see more buy tickets for 1-2 games on the secondary market opposed to buying seasons and PSLs. 

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That’s the info that we have. We have massive demand currently. You are anticipating that changing based on gut feeling. The data that we have says massive demand for the Bills. 

[Einstein]

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:10 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

1.6% of 62,000 is 1,000 seats (992 to be exact).

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That's not the right maths...

It's 1.6% of account holders. NOT seats.

[Kirby Jackson]

  On 4/2/2024 at 11:16 PM, Einstein said:

That's not the right maths...

It's 1.6% of account holders. NOT seats.

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The average account holder is like 2.3 seats (at least it was). The point remains.