We are set at WR. Maybe we’ll grab one in Round 6.

[BullBuchanan]

6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No one is moving the goal posts. The point has been that the Bills have invested HEAVILY in defense and have had a top 5ish defense annually. It hasn’t mattered when they got to Mahomes and Reid in the playoffs. That hasn’t been enough. I provided FACTS to support that when it comes to the draft. Here is another: of those DL drafted, every single one of them was picked earlier than every single WR with the exception of Daryl Johnson. It hasn’t worked!!!
 

The offensive philosophy has been to put whomever on the outside (with the exception of Diggs) and Allen’s greatness will elevate them. That has worked some as well. Imagine if they had guys, other than Diggs, that could win on their own? Imagine if they had guys, other than Josh, that could make plays with the ball in their hands? 
 

Instead of continuing to invest the prime resources on the defensive side of the ball, they need to prioritize WR. They have largely abandoned it and wasted years of Allen’s prime doing that. Your defense may go from top 5 to top 10 in doing so but who cares. You are going to win BECAUSE OF JOSH ALLEN. That is what this team has. Josh Allen was the only Buffalo Bills player ranked in PFFs top 101 players of 2023. The Bills need to stop putting the pieces elsewhere and then hope that he elevates whatever is left on offense. That mindset started to change last year with the Kincaid pick. That will continue this year as they look for their future number 1 WR. Play to your strengths.

 

You don't need to invest top resources on rotational defensive linemen. They’ve invested heavily at LB and in the secondary. When you combine FA dollars with “where guys were drafted” the investment in the defense DWARFS that of the offense. That has been CRIMINAL with Josh Allen in his prime. They have been reactive instead of the aggressive despite having a HOF QB. It’s going to change moving forward. The definition of insanity would be to continue passing out big deals to rotational defensive linemen (ie Settle, Floyd, Phillips, Ford) or high end draft picks on guys that aren’t difference makers (ie Rousseau, Epenesa, Basham, Shaq). Investing in Von and Oliver is one thing. They are elite talents and playmakers. It’s time to give the best player that has ever put on a Bills uniform (with the possible exception of Bruce Smith) what he needs to drag this team to a title. 

The "facts" you are using don't support your argument. That's the problem. You're trying to say that because they invested in players, that should prove that the strategy is flawed. No one is denying that they've made investments. How many of those players have been playing like all-pros? How many of those players make huge plays that one time you need them to int he playoffs? Certainly not enough of them and I'd argue none of them.

Looking at their top 100 picks over the last few years, you'll find few players who are game changers.

2023:
Dorian Williams (non-factor thus far)

2022:
Kaiir Elam (Bust)
Terell Bernard (looks good year 2 but too early to say if he'll be a playoff factor due to injury)

2021:
Greg Rousseau (non-impact starter)
Boogie Basham (Bust)

2020:
AJ Epenesa (terrible for two seasons and then good not great for two. Rotational player)

2019:
Ed Oliver (Underachieved most of his career until 2022 season. Non-factor against KC)

Notable Recent Free Agent signings/Trades
Rasul Douglas (Looked like a beast until the KC game, but was injured and clearly hampered)
Von Miller (has been ineffeective/unavailable the last year and a half since injury)
Leonard Floyd (Early season beast with 10.5 sacks but only 1 in his final 8 games. Non factor in the playoffs)

We Don't have a Chris Jones, Lararius Sneed, or even a George Karlaftis on this team that are there to make the play you need to have. With a healthy Douglas and Milano maybe we aren't that far away but we probably still need a game-wrecker that's better than all of them if you ever hope to stop Mahomes when it matters.


The investments that they've made on offense to surround Allen have borne far more fruit:
Diggs (top 10+ player every year of his buffalo career. Top 5 prior to this season)
Cook (Top 10 weapon out of the backfield)
Kincaid (could be a top 5 TE by the end of next season)
Gabe Davis (limited player with inconsistencies but still put up big numbers. We needed to upgrade here and we already have)
Khalil Shakir (Sophmore season would have been called a breakout if he had more targets.


On Affense you have 3 legitimate game breakers in Allen, Diggs, and Cook with Kincaid a high chance to be a 4th and Shakir possibly a step below that. I don't know what you want. I won't turn my nose up at one more weapon, but realistically that's all there's room for there.

On defense we can can conceivably upgrade at nearly every position. Now they probably won't try to go and get a Chris Jones or a Fred Warner, or even a  Lajarius Sneed, but all of those guys would make our team better than they are right now in a possibly meaningful way. If you can find one guy in the draft that can shut down Kelce, maybe that's all that's missing. If you can find one DL that can bring the extra juice to force Mahomes into a bad decision on 3rd down, maybe that's enough.

If you're resigning yourself to "well mahomes is always going to score", then you're already resigning yourself to losing, because Allen isn't that level that's going to score every single time either. He can do it once in a while, like we saw in 13 seconds, and then we still lose because our defense can't stop Mahomes. The math on that looks terrible. KC wins every time Josh doesn't go perfect and they also win every time Josh does go perfect but KC goes last.

I already made the point earlier that you casually ignored, but no amount of open receivers against KC completes the 3rd down pass that Josh didn't make that ended the game for us. Even bigger than that, is no amount of WR help there would prevent Mahomes from marching down the field and scoring again (as you are agreeing with me here that he would do) had Josh completed that pass. The right play there was throwing to a wide open Diggs for a first down, running out the clock and scoring without giving KC a chance to win. But that's not how we roll, and until we do, expect the same results.


 

Edited March 19 by BullBuchanan

[BullBuchanan]

To further back up my point, here are all the points teams allowed KC to score in games they lost over the last 3 years including playoffs

 

2023:
20

9

17

17

14

2022:

17

20

24

2021:

24

35

24

20

3

31

The bills have beaten KC all three years in the regular season by holding them to 17, 20 and 20 points. They've lost twice in the playoffs giving up 27 and 42 respectively. KC hasn't lost a game where they've scored more than 24 points since 2021. That's how Cincinnati got to the Super Bowl. They didn't do it by dropping 40 on them. 

 

Edited March 19 by BullBuchanan

[Kirby Jackson]

5 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

The "facts" you are using don't support your argument. That's the problem. You're trying to say that because they invested in players, that should prove that the strategy is flawed. No one is denying that they've made investments. How many of those players have been playing like all-pros? How many of those players make huge plays that one time you need them to int he playoffs? Certainly not enough of them and I'd argue none of them.

Looking at their top 100 picks over the last few years, you'll find few players who are game changers.

2023:
Dorian Williams (non-factor thus far)

2022:
Kaiir Elam (Bust)
Terell Bernard (looks good year 2 but too early to say if he'll be a playoff factor due to injury)

2021:
Greg Rousseau (non-impact starter)
Boogie Basham (Bust)

2020:
AJ Epenesa (terrible for two seasons and then good not great for two. Rotational player)

2019:
Ed Oliver (Underachieved most of his career until 2022 season. Non-factor against KC)

Notable Recent Free Agent signings/Trades
Rasul Douglas (Looked like a beast until the KC game, but was injured and clearly hampered)
Von Miller (has been ineffeective/unavailable the last year and a half since injury)
Leonard Floyd (Early season beast with 10.5 sacks but only 1 in his final 8 games. Non factor in the playoffs)

We Don't have a Chris Jones, Lararius Sneed, or even a George Karlaftis on this team that are there to make the play you need to have. With a healthy Douglas and Milano maybe we aren't that far away but we probably still need a game-wrecker that's better than all of them if you ever hope to stop Mahomes when it matters.


The investments that they've made on offense to surround Allen have borne far more fruit:
Diggs (top 10+ player every year of his buffalo career. Top 5 prior to this season)
Cook (Top 10 weapon out of the backfield)
Kincaid (could be a top 5 TE by the end of next season)
Gabe Davis (limited player with inconsistencies but still put up big numbers. We needed to upgrade here and we already have)
Khalil Shakir (Sophmore season would have been called a breakout if he had more targets.


On Affense you have 3 legitimate game breakers in Allen, Diggs, and Cook with Kincaid a high chance to be a 4th and Shakir possibly a step below that. I don't know what you want. I won't turn my nose up at one more weapon, but realistically that's all there's room for there.

On defense we can can conceivably upgrade at nearly every position. Now they probably won't try to go and get a Chris Jones or a Fred Warner, or even a  Lajarius Sneed, but all of those guys would make our team better than they are right now in a possibly meaningful way. If you can find one guy in the draft that can shut down Kelce, maybe that's all that's missing. If you can find one DL that can bring the extra juice to force Mahomes into a bad decision on 3rd down, maybe that's enough.

If you're resigning yourself to "well mahomes is always going to score", then you're already resigning yourself to losing, because Allen isn't that level that's going to score every single time either. He can do it once in a while, like we saw in 13 seconds, and then we still lose because our defense can't stop Mahomes. The math on that looks terrible. KC wins every time Josh doesn't go perfect and they also win every time Josh does go perfect but KC goes last.

I already made the point earlier that you casually ignored, but no amount of open receivers against KC completes the 3rd down pass that Josh didn't make that ended the game for us. Even bigger than that, is no amount of WR help there would prevent Mahomes from marching down the field and scoring again (as you are agreeing with me here that he would do) had Josh completed that pass. The right play there was throwing to a wide open Diggs for a first down, running out the clock and scoring without giving KC a chance to win. But that's not how we roll, and until we do, expect the same results.


 

Lots and lots of words here and it’s further illustrating the point. What has worked are the good players that you’ve given Josh (Diggs, Kincaid and Cook). He’s also turned average(ish) talent into productive players (Gabe, Shakir, Beasley, Brown, etc). The Bills have invested HEAVILY in better talent defensively and it has failed. Regardless of the failure of guys like Basham and Elam, they remain a top 5(ish) unit. You can plug anyone in there and be okay. It is time to focus on Josh and only Josh. Give him MORE elite talent because that is what works. Stop trying to elevate Trent Sherfield or Jake Kumerow!! Give Josh AD Mitchell or Brian Thomas and watch the offense reach new levels. That has to be the plan moving forward. Enough insanity

Edited March 19 by Kirby Jackson

[Chaos]

18 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

The "facts" you are using don't support your argument. That's the problem. You're trying to say that because they invested in players, that should prove that the strategy is flawed. No one is denying that they've made investments. How many of those players have been playing like all-pros? How many of those players make huge plays that one time you need them to int he playoffs? Certainly not enough of them and I'd argue none of them.

Looking at their top 100 picks over the last few years, you'll find few players who are game changers.

2023:
Dorian Williams (non-factor thus far)

2022:
Kaiir Elam (Bust)
Terell Bernard (looks good year 2 but too early to say if he'll be a playoff factor due to injury)

2021:
Greg Rousseau (non-impact starter)
Boogie Basham (Bust)

2020:
AJ Epenesa (terrible for two seasons and then good not great for two. Rotational player)

2019:
Ed Oliver (Underachieved most of his career until 2022 season. Non-factor against KC)

Notable Recent Free Agent signings/Trades
Rasul Douglas (Looked like a beast until the KC game, but was injured and clearly hampered)
Von Miller (has been ineffeective/unavailable the last year and a half since injury)
Leonard Floyd (Early season beast with 10.5 sacks but only 1 in his final 8 games. Non factor in the playoffs)

We Don't have a Chris Jones, Lararius Sneed, or even a George Karlaftis on this team that are there to make the play you need to have. With a healthy Douglas and Milano maybe we aren't that far away but we probably still need a game-wrecker that's better than all of them if you ever hope to stop Mahomes when it matters.


The investments that they've made on offense to surround Allen have borne far more fruit:
Diggs (top 10+ player every year of his buffalo career. Top 5 prior to this season)
Cook (Top 10 weapon out of the backfield)
Kincaid (could be a top 5 TE by the end of next season)
Gabe Davis (limited player with inconsistencies but still put up big numbers. We needed to upgrade here and we already have)
Khalil Shakir (Sophmore season would have been called a breakout if he had more targets.


On Affense you have 3 legitimate game breakers in Allen, Diggs, and Cook with Kincaid a high chance to be a 4th and Shakir possibly a step below that. I don't know what you want. I won't turn my nose up at one more weapon, but realistically that's all there's room for there.

On defense we can can conceivably upgrade at nearly every position. Now they probably won't try to go and get a Chris Jones or a Fred Warner, or even a  Lajarius Sneed, but all of those guys would make our team better than they are right now in a possibly meaningful way. If you can find one guy in the draft that can shut down Kelce, maybe that's all that's missing. If you can find one DL that can bring the extra juice to force Mahomes into a bad decision on 3rd down, maybe that's enough.

If you're resigning yourself to "well mahomes is always going to score", then you're already resigning yourself to losing, because Allen isn't that level that's going to score every single time either. He can do it once in a while, like we saw in 13 seconds, and then we still lose because our defense can't stop Mahomes. The math on that looks terrible. KC wins every time Josh doesn't go perfect and they also win every time Josh does go perfect but KC goes last.

I already made the point earlier that you casually ignored, but no amount of open receivers against KC completes the 3rd down pass that Josh didn't make that ended the game for us. Even bigger than that, is no amount of WR help there would prevent Mahomes from marching down the field and scoring again (as you are agreeing with me here that he would do) had Josh completed that pass. The right play there was throwing to a wide open Diggs for a first down, running out the clock and scoring without giving KC a chance to win. But that's not how we roll, and until we do, expect the same results.


 

Allen is that level. 

[philholbroo]

only positions set are qb, k, ls, p. always want to look forward, especially wr where salary keep escalating quickly.

[BillsFanForever19]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:31 PM, BringBackFergy said:

Diggs, Shakir, Hollins, Samuel, Shorter…even Kincaid (WR/TE). Nice WR room.

 

Face it…we need an interior O lineman or a safety.
 

Deal with it.  

 

Talk about being ratio'd

 

10 yay

101 nay

[billsfan89]

The need for WR is more long term to get an “heir apparent” for Diggs. But a fun troll job 

[BringBackFergy]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Talk about being ratio'd

 

10 yay

101 nay

Free your mind. Most experts have our team needing a safety or guard in Round 1 over Sammy Watkins Part II. 

4 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

The need for WR is more long term to get an “heir apparent” for Diggs. But a fun troll job 

“Heir apparent” is the new company line here on TBD and WGR. Stop being a sheep. Use your own God-given brain. 

[Kirby Jackson]

On 3/16/2024 at 8:21 PM, BullBuchanan said:

They just signed Curtis Samuel to be our #2. They aren't paying him 7M/15 guaranteed to be our #4.

As stated, he was not signed to be WR 2. He was signed to be a weapon.

Edited March 24 by Kirby Jackson

[Trogdor]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:54 AM, Chaos said:

Allen is that level. 

The perfect game was a dream I guess lol

On 3/21/2024 at 6:47 AM, BringBackFergy said:

Free your mind. Most experts have our team needing a safety or guard in Round 1 over Sammy Watkins Part II. 

“Heir apparent” is the new company line here on TBD and WGR. Stop being a sheep. Use your own God-given brain. 

Anyone with eyes saw Diggs start to fall off. No plan in place will doom this team. 

[Sierra Foothills]

On 3/16/2024 at 7:04 PM, Big Turk said:

The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again that haven't worked and expecting different results.

 

insanity

noun

in·san·i·ty in-ˈsa-nə-tē 

 

the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness.

"he suffered from bouts of insanity"

 

 

 

[billsfan89]

I do not hate the idea of using picks 28 and 60 on suring up the lines, but I think WR in round 4 or early round 5 would fill a nice need for depth and to develop longer term players for the position.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

42 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I do not hate the idea of using picks 28 and 60 on suring up the lines, but I think WR in round 4 or early round 5 would fill a nice need for depth and to develop longer term players for the position.

 

 

I just can’t wrap my head around people thinking this way. The Bills lost their number 2 WR, haven’t replaced him. They have an aging #1, on a contract that they didn’t restructure so that they could get out next year. We are talking about trying to add the next Justin Shorter for depth?!? Seriously? Why would we not give our best player the support that he needs?!?

 

Fortunately Beane isn’t thinking this way. He has plenty of depth guys and long term developmental guys. He needs a star. This draft has a bunch of them. The Bills will 100% pick a WR by 60. They need the top of the depth chart there, not the bottom. 

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

insanity

noun

in·san·i·ty in-ˈsa-nə-tē 

 

the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness.

"he suffered from bouts of insanity"

 

 

 

Thank you so much for this. Regardless where you fall on the WR debate. I hate people claiming the false definition of insanity. 

On 3/19/2024 at 5:09 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

Lots and lots of words here and it’s further illustrating the point. What has worked are the good players that you’ve given Josh (Diggs, Kincaid and Cook). He’s also turned average(ish) talent into productive players (Gabe, Shakir, Beasley, Brown, etc). The Bills have invested HEAVILY in better talent defensively and it has failed. Regardless of the failure of guys like Basham and Elam, they remain a top 5(ish) unit. You can plug anyone in there and be okay. It is time to focus on Josh and only Josh. Give him MORE elite talent because that is what works. Stop trying to elevate Trent Sherfield or Jake Kumerow!! Give Josh AD Mitchell or Brian Thomas and watch the offense reach new levels. That has to be the plan moving forward. Enough insanity

I find it so comical that you can explain so easily why you would want to give our superstar QB more weapons. Or why it’s a waste to continue to spend resource after resource in a defense that continues to be near the top of the league during the season but all the sudden fall apart in the playoffs. It’s just hilarious. 

[4merper4mer]

8 hours ago, mrags said:

Thank you so much for this. Regardless where you fall on the WR debate. I hate people claiming the false definition of insanity. 

 

The people who use that definition of insane over and over again are proving themselves to be insane.

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

The people who use that definition of insane over and over again are proving themselves to be insane.

Holy crap. I agree with you for once

[Rocky Landing]

Fans on these boards seem to have convinced themselves that Beane/McDermott are drafting a WR in the first round, period, and that WR is our greatest need. It’s not. Not even close. And I would bet money that they will draft a defensive player in round one. The defense is currently paper thin. 

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

Holy crap. I agree with you for once

Wait.  
 

They keep saying the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over when it doesn’t work.

 

This is the wrong definition of insanity.

 

You agree that people who keep using the same definition over and over even though it is wrong are thus proven to be insane.  
 

Doesn’t that either make you:

 

1. Wrong about the definition of insane or

2. Insane?

[mrags]

7 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Wait.  
 

They keep saying the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over when it doesn’t work.

 

This is the wrong definition of insanity.

 

You agree that people who keep using the same definition over and over even though it is wrong are thus proven to be insane.  
 

Doesn’t that either make you:

 

1. Wrong about the definition of insane or

2. Insane?

I was agreeing in the context of them believing they know what the definition is. Not according Webster. 
 

and now I don’t like you again 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 3/19/2024 at 9:27 AM, BullBuchanan said:

The "facts" you are using don't support your argument. That's the problem. You're trying to say that because they invested in players, that should prove that the strategy is flawed. No one is denying that they've made investments. How many of those players have been playing like all-pros? How many of those players make huge plays that one time you need them to int he playoffs? Certainly not enough of them and I'd argue none of them.

Looking at their top 100 picks over the last few years, you'll find few players who are game changers.

2023:
Dorian Williams (non-factor thus far)

2022:
Kaiir Elam (Bust)
Terell Bernard (looks good year 2 but too early to say if he'll be a playoff factor due to injury)

2021:
Greg Rousseau (non-impact starter)
Boogie Basham (Bust)

2020:
AJ Epenesa (terrible for two seasons and then good not great for two. Rotational player)

2019:
Ed Oliver (Underachieved most of his career until 2022 season. Non-factor against KC)

Notable Recent Free Agent signings/Trades
Rasul Douglas (Looked like a beast until the KC game, but was injured and clearly hampered)
Von Miller (has been ineffeective/unavailable the last year and a half since injury)
Leonard Floyd (Early season beast with 10.5 sacks but only 1 in his final 8 games. Non factor in the playoffs)

We Don't have a Chris Jones, Lararius Sneed, or even a George Karlaftis on this team that are there to make the play you need to have. With a healthy Douglas and Milano maybe we aren't that far away but we probably still need a game-wrecker that's better than all of them if you ever hope to stop Mahomes when it matters.


The investments that they've made on offense to surround Allen have borne far more fruit:
Diggs (top 10+ player every year of his buffalo career. Top 5 prior to this season)
Cook (Top 10 weapon out of the backfield)
Kincaid (could be a top 5 TE by the end of next season)
Gabe Davis (limited player with inconsistencies but still put up big numbers. We needed to upgrade here and we already have)
Khalil Shakir (Sophmore season would have been called a breakout if he had more targets.


On Affense you have 3 legitimate game breakers in Allen, Diggs, and Cook with Kincaid a high chance to be a 4th and Shakir possibly a step below that. I don't know what you want. I won't turn my nose up at one more weapon, but realistically that's all there's room for there.

On defense we can can conceivably upgrade at nearly every position. Now they probably won't try to go and get a Chris Jones or a Fred Warner, or even a  Lajarius Sneed, but all of those guys would make our team better than they are right now in a possibly meaningful way. If you can find one guy in the draft that can shut down Kelce, maybe that's all that's missing. If you can find one DL that can bring the extra juice to force Mahomes into a bad decision on 3rd down, maybe that's enough.

If you're resigning yourself to "well mahomes is always going to score", then you're already resigning yourself to losing, because Allen isn't that level that's going to score every single time either. He can do it once in a while, like we saw in 13 seconds, and then we still lose because our defense can't stop Mahomes. The math on that looks terrible. KC wins every time Josh doesn't go perfect and they also win every time Josh does go perfect but KC goes last.

I already made the point earlier that you casually ignored, but no amount of open receivers against KC completes the 3rd down pass that Josh didn't make that ended the game for us. Even bigger than that, is no amount of WR help there would prevent Mahomes from marching down the field and scoring again (as you are agreeing with me here that he would do) had Josh completed that pass. The right play there was throwing to a wide open Diggs for a first down, running out the clock and scoring without giving KC a chance to win. But that's not how we roll, and until we do, expect the same results.


 

Diggs will need to be replaced very soon. We have no legit WR2 either. And Cook can't catch a ball to save his life.  Those are 3 big issues.

 

I'm tired of waiting around for this braintrust to get it right defensively.  Especially in the playoffs. We need 2 more WRS, then you can go crazy again drafting failed defensive players all you want.