Niagara Bill Posted March 11 Posted March 11 1. Not a foreign policy because the world cares nothing about Haiti, for good reason. 2 1000 miles is nothing, the failure is to secure Cuba 90 miles away. trump will give it to Putin. The US should rescue the Cuban people NOW! 1
Westside Posted March 12 Posted March 12 2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: 1. Not a foreign policy because the world cares nothing about Haiti, for good reason. 2 1000 miles is nothing, the failure is to secure Cuba 90 miles away. trump will give it to Putin. The US should rescue the Cuban people NOW! Where you one of the lefties who lost there ***** when Trump called it a shithole? 1
SCBills Posted March 12 Author Posted March 12 Liberal white women will watch videos of cannibal voodoo gangs from Haiti and straight face tell you we should import them to America.
Niagara Bill Posted March 12 Posted March 12 8 hours ago, Westside said: Where you one of the lefties who lost there ***** when Trump called it a shithole? No not a lefty, just suggesting the Haiti is not worth the interest. Heck, if Trump will abandon NATO, wtf does anyone want to get involved with this piece of garbage culture. Just keep them there.
LeviF Posted March 12 Posted March 12 6 hours ago, SCBills said: Liberal white women will watch videos of cannibal voodoo gangs from Haiti and straight face tell you we should import them to America. And Republicans will still insist the universal franchise is a good thing and exactly what America needed.
All_Pro_Bills Posted March 12 Posted March 12 12 minutes ago, LeviF said: And Republicans will still insist the universal franchise is a good thing and exactly what America needed. Most likely. But the only certainty I'm willing to bet on is at some point in the next few days the ass clowns on MSNBC are going to nod in agreement that the whole thing is Trump's fault. 1
LeviF Posted March 12 Posted March 12 12 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Most likely. But the only certainty I'm willing to bet on is at some point in the next few days the ass clowns on MSNBC are going to nod in agreement that the whole thing is Trump's fault. The commentary shows likely won’t talk about it. The PM resigning will make world news amid talk of “small civil war” and similar euphemisms we hear about coups in third world shitholes. No mention that Haiti is actually an almost pure experiment in decolonization.
Westside Posted March 12 Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said: No not a lefty, just suggesting the Haiti is not worth the interest. Heck, if Trump will abandon NATO, wtf does anyone want to get involved with this piece of garbage culture. Just keep them there. Trump didn’t abandon NATO. He made them pay their fair share. Which is smart considering we were paying for everything.
Niagara Bill Posted March 12 Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Westside said: Trump didn’t abandon NATO. He made them pay their fair share. Which is smart considering we were paying for everything. Oh come on, he recently said he would allow Putin to invade NATO countries. If the US under trump are going to follow isolationist policies, of all the countries in the world, why oh why would Haiti be an exception. 1
T master Posted March 12 Posted March 12 13 hours ago, Precision said: Bravo, bravo, another foreign policy failure by the administration in a country less than 1000 miles from America's border. Now that Haiti is a failed state the administration is finally waking up to the urgency of the situation. Unfortunately, the time to intervene was long before armed gangs controlled the country. Once again, the administrations lack of foresight mirrors the mental acuity of the president. The fall of Haiti was no surprise as there were warning such as (to name just a few from 2023): April of 2023 - UN warns of historic violence in Haiti and need for intervention. July of 2023 - US State Department evacuated non-emergency personnel from the country. August of 2023 - US State Department advised Americans to leave Haiti. November 2023 - UN report released regarding increasing gang violence and the need for a multinational peacekeeping force. None of these events motivated the Biden administration to take action, deciding to wait until Haiti fell into total chaos rather than assist a semi-functioning government. Now, Americans will reap the benefits of that decision with millions of dollars going to Haiti, Haitian migrants coming to the US and inevitably dead US soldiers. Biden will undoubtedly tout the late US response as a "victory" with no thought given to the carnage he left behind. Per the UN report in November 2023 regarding the violence "more than 3,000 people dead along with thousands of others who were injured or victims of kidnappings." But what about Ukraine ? And Americans just can't figure out why some countries despise America after they just turn our backs on those that truly need help, if they only knew ...
Precision Posted March 12 Posted March 12 (edited) 15 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: 1. Not a foreign policy because the world cares nothing about Haiti, for good reason. 2 1000 miles is nothing, the failure is to secure Cuba 90 miles away. trump will give it to Putin. The US should rescue the Cuban people NOW! Governing for dummies Chapter 1 - You do not allow a state to fail in close proximity to your borders for a few reasons. First, a failed state is never a peaceful affair and the gangs that are a problem now will evolve into "warlord" controlled crime structures much like in Somalia. These "warlords" will be a much larger threat to the US and its neighbors as the criminal activity will spillover to surrounding countries. Second, the violence from a failed state will create a refugee crisis. These refugees will be running for their lives and not merely seeking economic opportunity. In this case the US will have a moral obligation to admit these refugees as there will be no dispute regarding their status as asylum seekers. There are currently 730,000 Haitians who have migrated to the US, now you can expect that number to increase dramatically. Haitian Immigrants in the United States Third, a failed state will create economic issues for its neighbors and trading partners. Trade with Haiti will fall, and the parties impacted will need to adjust accordingly (the US has roughly $1-2 billion dollars in trade with Haiti). A failed Haiti will create an economic "dead zone" as trade, tourism and development will avoid an unstable geographic area which will harm its immediate neighbors. Fourth, the financial cost of such a large number of refugees is staggering. As an example, if we look at the current 730,000 Haitian migrants and assume only half require financial assistance, at $2,200/month for each family (let's assume a family of 4) you're talking yearly federal expenditures of ((730,000/2)/4) x 12 which is a little over $1 billion dollars. This neglects the state and local expenses incurred. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is no "giving Cuba to Putin". Cuba has been aligned with the Soviet Union/Russia since roughly 1960. Also, as much as every American might dislike the current government of Cuba it is far from a "failed state". Failed state index - 2023 Edited March 12 by Precision
Precision Posted March 12 Posted March 12 (edited) 57 minutes ago, T master said: But what about Ukraine ? And Americans just can't figure out why some countries despise America after they just turn our backs on those that truly need help, if they only knew ... I would argue that there is a large difference between Ukraine (a stable state at war) and Haiti (a failed state). Regarding Haiti The US is sending roughly $200 million dollars/year in aid. The close proximity of Haiti makes it strategically important to the US. The crime, refugee crisis and economic issues will disproportionally impact the US more than any other first world country. No one other than the US will take responsibility for stabilizing Haiti. Haiti is a failed state, so a fairly easy goal is just to support and backstop a semi-functioning government. Regarding Ukraine The US has sent roughly $75 billion dollars in aid. Like it or not Ukraine has been historically linked with Russia. The war disproportionately impacts Ukraine's neighbors in the EU. The EU countries have the economic ability to fund Ukraine if they so choose. There may not be a path to success in Ukraine no matter how much aid or arms anyone provides. The above probably sounds like I am rooting against Ukraine but it's just the opposite. Unfortunately, if Russia chooses to defeat Ukraine at any cost there is little the west can do with the exception of getting involved directly. Even then I question the west's resolve to absorb tens or hundreds of thousands of casualties. Roughly 80 years ago in WW2 the Soviet Union suffered 24 million deaths so there is no question regarding their resolve to sustain losses. Your point regarding "turning our backs" is valid and every administration needs to decide that if the US gets involved internationally then it needs to make a long-term commitment. Stabilizing Haiti is an easy call and something that should have occurred long before now. Ukraine is a much more difficult conversation and a question I would ask is that if you look at your children would you be willing to give one up for Ukraine? Edited March 12 by Precision
B-Man Posted March 12 Posted March 12 🦫 DON SURBER: Hey, Look, Haiti! The internal polling on Dark Brandon’s state-of-the-union speech must be horrible because Democrats and their deep-state go-fers in the media quickly changed the subject. First, they tried to make the story about Republican Katie Britt’s Karen-in-the-kitchen response to Biden’s speech, but no one outside DC cares about these responses. Then Biden said he threatened Netanyahu with a come-to-Jesus moment. Bibi did not take Biden serious and no one else did. I mean, what was Biden going to do? Make Bibi eat a ham sandwich? With the Ukraine war wearing out its welcome, the only diversion left was the uncivil war in Haiti. Suddenly riots in its capital became the most important story in the world! We are sending troops to Port-au-Prince, something we failed to do to Minneapolis, Seattle and Portland four years ago. Apparently it is OK to give rioters in Baltimore space, but not in Haiti. Haiti has replaced Ukraine as the 51st state, just like Dick Sargent replaced Dick York as Darrin on Bewitched. There was no discussion and no explanation. How important is Haiti now? The New York Times pulled down its paywall to report the story. Haiti has always been a basket case, and it’s only become more basketish with ten-plus years of deep international involvement. (Is any place actually improved by the attention of NGOs and UN agencies?) The only time it didn’t suck was when it was run by the United States Marine Corps, and that wasn’t worth the trouble for us back then, and would be more trouble now. https://donsurber.substack.com/p/haiti-replaces-ukraine?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1115457&post_id=142531981&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=9bg2k&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
wnyguy Posted March 12 Posted March 12 2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: Oh come on, he recently said he would allow Putin to invade NATO countries. If the US under trump are going to follow isolationist policies, of all the countries in the world, why oh why would Haiti be an exception. This is why you can not have an honest or legitimate conversation with people like the one I quoted above. 1
Niagara Bill Posted March 12 Posted March 12 3 hours ago, Precision said: Governing for dummies Chapter 1 - You do not allow a state to fail in close proximity to your borders for a few reasons. First, a failed state is never a peaceful affair and the gangs that are a problem now will evolve into "warlord" controlled crime structures much like in Somalia. These "warlords" will be a much larger threat to the US and its neighbors as the criminal activity will spillover to surrounding countries. Second, the violence from a failed state will create a refugee crisis. These refugees will be running for their lives and not merely seeking economic opportunity. In this case the US will have a moral obligation to admit these refugees as there will be no dispute regarding their status as asylum seekers. There are currently 730,000 Haitians who have migrated to the US, now you can expect that number to increase dramatically. Haitian Immigrants in the United States Third, a failed state will create economic issues for its neighbors and trading partners. Trade with Haiti will fall, and the parties impacted will need to adjust accordingly (the US has roughly $1-2 billion dollars in trade with Haiti). A failed Haiti will create an economic "dead zone" as trade, tourism and development will avoid an unstable geographic area which will harm its immediate neighbors. Fourth, the financial cost of such a large number of refugees is staggering. As an example, if we look at the current 730,000 Haitian migrants and assume only half require financial assistance, at $2,200/month for each family (let's assume a family of 4) you're talking yearly federal expenditures of ((730,000/2)/4) x 12 which is a little over $1 billion dollars. This neglects the state and local expenses incurred. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is no "giving Cuba to Putin". Cuba has been aligned with the Soviet Union/Russia since roughly 1960. Also, as much as every American might dislike the current government of Cuba it is far from a "failed state". Failed state index - 2023 If you allow Haitian immigration that is foolish. It is a culture based on violence, underground economy and no education. Both US and Canada would suffer and not monetarily. CRIME! It is time that all citizens realize that migration is invasion by the worst of the worst. The gop have been wrong about shipping bus loads to democratic cities, they should send the buses to Appalachia where no money exists, or to reservations and watch the media react to that. Cuba is ripe for influencing now, poverty is increasing, no wheat, gasoline prices up 500%, dwindling tourism. Opening trade with YS today shd y months later Russia would be done there. Better to do that than allow China to open it the gates....and it is coming.
T master Posted March 12 Posted March 12 8 hours ago, Precision said: I would argue that there is a large difference between Ukraine (a stable state at war) and Haiti (a failed state). Regarding Haiti The US is sending roughly $200 million dollars/year in aid. The close proximity of Haiti makes it strategically important to the US. The crime, refugee crisis and economic issues will disproportionally impact the US more than any other first world country. No one other than the US will take responsibility for stabilizing Haiti. Haiti is a failed state, so a fairly easy goal is just to support and backstop a semi-functioning government. Regarding Ukraine The US has sent roughly $75 billion dollars in aid. Like it or not Ukraine has been historically linked with Russia. The war disproportionately impacts Ukraine's neighbors in the EU. The EU countries have the economic ability to fund Ukraine if they so choose. There may not be a path to success in Ukraine no matter how much aid or arms anyone provides. The above probably sounds like I am rooting against Ukraine but it's just the opposite. Unfortunately, if Russia chooses to defeat Ukraine at any cost there is little the west can do with the exception of getting involved directly. Even then I question the west's resolve to absorb tens or hundreds of thousands of casualties. Roughly 80 years ago in WW2 the Soviet Union suffered 24 million deaths so there is no question regarding their resolve to sustain losses. Your point regarding "turning our backs" is valid and every administration needs to decide that if the US gets involved internationally then it needs to make a long-term commitment. Stabilizing Haiti is an easy call and something that should have occurred long before now. Ukraine is a much more difficult conversation and a question I would ask is that if you look at your children would you be willing to give one up for Ukraine? When i referenced Ukraine i was being a wise guy . 1
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