MikePJ76 Posted March 6 Posted March 6 6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah I thought that was already established........before you went on to downplay the acquisition so I'm just pointing out how wrong you are about that. The Cowboys didn't have a pass rush. It was anemic, bottom of the league level in 1991. That's why they were an easy out for Detroit in the playoffs the year prior. Maybe you didn't live it or were a child and didn't understand.......but that trade changed everything for them. The thread is about Free Agent Signings that put teams over the top. I pointed out that Charles Haley Was not a free agent signing. Haley brought an element Dallas did not have for the most part in 90 and 91 when they turned it around. However their defensive line was pretty good, it was their secondary that needed the most work and that is why Detroit with that unique for the time Run n Shoot offense was a mismatch. Detroit also was impossible to beat at the silverdome that year. Since you want to take this approach with me I will respond accordingly. I started watching the nfl as a kid in 83. I am well aware of that era of the nfl. Dallas had another excellent draft in 92 which added to the team Kevin Smith, Robert Jones and Darren Woodson. Smith was outstanding, Jones was the rookie of the year and Woodson had a hall of fame career. Woodson is still the modern day prototype safety, Big and strong to play the run but quick and agile enough to cover the slot. He should be in the hall of fame. During the season they traded for safety Thomas Everett. They completely remade their secondary in 92 and it was unique for the time with a guy like woodson playing in Dallas mostly Cover 4 scheme on the backend. Haley was brought in right before the summer and fit right in providing the edge rush they needed but Dallas defense improved tremendously that offseason Haley withstanding. I remember that Dallas draft so well because they drafted a player from Tennessee who went the rival high school of my high school....He was from Rome Free Academy (Rome, NY) and I was in 9th grade at the time at Proctor High School (Utica, NY) RFA and Proctor were rivals especially in baseball (my sport). Both had (Have) excellent baseball programs. so again the thread is about free agent signings and you are mansplaining (somewhat incorrectly) Haley's importance to Dallas defense. So one more time, Charles Haley was not a free agent signing that led to a championship because he was not a free agent signing. 12 minutes ago, Billl said: Reggie White had 3 sacks in their Superbowl win. I'd say that qualifies. that was 4 seasons later. The packers underwent a ton of change in those 4 years before they won the superbowl. They got beat by Dallas in each of those 3 playoff losses in part because their big time free agent signing, Reggie White got manhandled by Dallas right tackle Eric Williams. Williams owned white. Quote
Billl Posted March 6 Posted March 6 4 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said: that was 4 seasons later. The packers underwent a ton of change in those 4 years before they won the superbowl. They got beat by Dallas in each of those 3 playoff losses in part because their big time free agent signing, Reggie White got manhandled by Dallas right tackle Eric Williams. Williams owned white So if Buffalo wins Superbowl LVX and Von has 3 sacks in the game, his signing wouldn't qualify as directly leading to a Superbowl win? Quote
MikePJ76 Posted March 6 Posted March 6 2 minutes ago, Billl said: So if Buffalo wins Superbowl LVX and Von has 3 sacks in the game, his signing wouldn't qualify as directly leading to a Superbowl win? yes it absolutely would not. It would have had he stayed healthy in 22 and the bills won the super bowl. That would be an exact answer to what this thread is about. This thread is about a free agent signing that led directly and impacted directly the team getting over the hump and winning the super bowl. It has almost never happened in one season via free agency. The closest thing is Deion, Demarcus ware, Tom Brady-Gronk.....but even each of those have a number of other additions that helped the team. basically this thread shows that a free agent signing will not get you over the hump in one year to a championship and that is all. Trades have been more productive and team building takes a lot of time. Free agency is best used to fill holes you have and you get your core players from the draft. Its pretty much always been that way. Quote
Billl Posted March 6 Posted March 6 2 hours ago, MikePJ76 said: yes it absolutely would not. It would have had he stayed healthy in 22 and the bills won the super bowl. That would be an exact answer to what this thread is about. This thread is about a free agent signing that led directly and impacted directly the team getting over the hump and winning the super bowl. It has almost never happened in one season via free agency. The closest thing is Deion, Demarcus ware, Tom Brady-Gronk.....but even each of those have a number of other additions that helped the team. basically this thread shows that a free agent signing will not get you over the hump in one year to a championship and that is all. Trades have been more productive and team building takes a lot of time. Free agency is best used to fill holes you have and you get your core players from the draft. Its pretty much always been that way. So if the Bills win a Superbowl, drafting Josh wouldn't qualify as directly leading to a Superbowl win either, I guess. 1 Quote
90sBills Posted March 6 Posted March 6 No one mentioned the pivotal signings that led directly to the last 2 Superbowls? Kadarius Toney Mecole Hardman 1 Quote
st pete gogolak Posted March 6 Author Posted March 6 2 hours ago, MikePJ76 said: The thread is about Free Agent Signings that put teams over the top. I pointed out that Charles Haley Was not a free agent signing. Haley brought an element Dallas did not have for the most part in 90 and 91 when they turned it around. However their defensive line was pretty good, it was their secondary that needed the most work and that is why Detroit with that unique for the time Run n Shoot offense was a mismatch. Detroit also was impossible to beat at the silverdome that year. Since you want to take this approach with me I will respond accordingly. I started watching the nfl as a kid in 83. I am well aware of that era of the nfl. Dallas had another excellent draft in 92 which added to the team Kevin Smith, Robert Jones and Darren Woodson. Smith was outstanding, Jones was the rookie of the year and Woodson had a hall of fame career. Woodson is still the modern day prototype safety, Big and strong to play the run but quick and agile enough to cover the slot. He should be in the hall of fame. During the season they traded for safety Thomas Everett. They completely remade their secondary in 92 and it was unique for the time with a guy like woodson playing in Dallas mostly Cover 4 scheme on the backend. Haley was brought in right before the summer and fit right in providing the edge rush they needed but Dallas defense improved tremendously that offseason Haley withstanding. I remember that Dallas draft so well because they drafted a player from Tennessee who went the rival high school of my high school....He was from Rome Free Academy (Rome, NY) and I was in 9th grade at the time at Proctor High School (Utica, NY) RFA and Proctor were rivals especially in baseball (my sport). Both had (Have) excellent baseball programs. so again the thread is about free agent signings and you are mansplaining (somewhat incorrectly) Haley's importance to Dallas defense. So one more time, Charles Haley was not a free agent signing that led to a championship because he was not a free agent signing. that was 4 seasons later. The packers underwent a ton of change in those 4 years before they won the superbowl. They got beat by Dallas in each of those 3 playoff losses in part because their big time free agent signing, Reggie White got manhandled by Dallas right tackle Eric Williams. Williams owned white. Williams owned everybody. Maybe the best “unknown” lineman of all time. He physically destroyed a pretty good player in Phil Hansen in the Super Bowl rematch. 1 Quote
MikePJ76 Posted March 6 Posted March 6 1 minute ago, st pete gogolak said: Williams owned everybody. Maybe the best “unknown” lineman of all time. He physically destroyed a pretty good player in Phil Hansen in the Super Bowl rematch. he was on pace for a hall of fame career until his car accident. He was never the same again after that. 18 minutes ago, Billl said: So if the Bills win a Superbowl, drafting Josh wouldn't qualify as directly leading to a Superbowl win either, I guess. This post makes zero sense in response to what I posted and to the topic of the thread. Quote
Billl Posted March 6 Posted March 6 (edited) 41 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said: This post makes zero sense in response to what I posted and to the topic of the thread. You've said that free agents don't directly lead to Superbowl wins if they don't win the Superbowl the following year. By that logic, draft picks don't directly contribute to Superbowl wins unless they do it their rookie year. Reggie White had 3 sacks in the Packers Superbowl win over the Patriots, but you say that his signing doesn't count as directly leading to the win because it was his fourth year on the team. Well Josh has been on the Bills for 6 seasons. If the Bills win a Superbowl next year, your own qualifiers would dictate that drafting Josh wouldn't have directly led to the win because it would be his sixth year on the team. It's a stupid argument to only count their first year with the team, but you're the one making it. Nobody else is. Edited March 6 by Billl Quote
MikePJ76 Posted March 6 Posted March 6 3 minutes ago, Billl said: You've said that free agents don't directly lead to Superbowl wins if they don't win the Superbowl the following year. By that logic, draft picks don't directly contribute to Superbowl wins unless they do it their rookie year. Reggie White had 3 sacks in the Packers Superbowl win over the Patriots, but you say that his signing doesn't count as directly leading to the win because it was his fourth year on the team. Well Josh has been on the Bills for 6 seasons. If the Bills win a Superbowl next year, your own qualifiers would dictate that drafting Josh wouldn't have directly led to the win because it would be his sixth year on the team. It's a stupid argument to only count their first year with the team, but you're the one making it. Nobody else is. Its the whole premise of the thread. A free agent who immediately puts the team over the top. I am sorry your reading comprehension is poor. I can't help with you that. your response about Allen is the equivalent of me asking you what 1+1 is and you say purple, then get mad when I point out purple is not a number. Quote
Billl Posted March 6 Posted March 6 21 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said: Its the whole premise of the thread. A free agent who immediately puts the team over the top. I am sorry your reading comprehension is poor. I can't help with you that. your response about Allen is the equivalent of me asking you what 1+1 is and you say purple, then get mad when I point out purple is not a number. WTF are you talking about? The thread starter literally used Reggie White as an example of someone who meets the definition in the initial post. Quote
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted March 6 Posted March 6 5 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said: Fun Fact. The dolphins added those three guys and have the same winning percentage they did under the last two years of Brian Flores They got so much draft capital from being bad too. Lost one for tampering and spent the rest on these fellas. Quote
MikePJ76 Posted March 6 Posted March 6 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Billl said: WTF are you talking about? The thread starter literally used Reggie White as an example of someone who meets the definition in the initial post. and he is wrong. White didn't put them over the top to win a championship in the way that Tom Brady-Gronk did in one year or to a lesser extent Deion Sanders did. In Fact Reggie white was not enough to put them over the top so much that over the next 3 off seasons they had to sign Sean Jones, Guy Mcintyre, Steve McMichael, Fred Strickland, Mark Ingram, Keith Jackson, Don Beebe, Desmond Howard, Eugene Robinson, Santana Dotson..... and even then along with all the draft picks they needed Dallas and SF to fall apart the same year so they didn't have to play them to get to the super bowl. Reggie White helped them get to the playoffs but he damn sure didn't get them to the super bowl as the missing piece, again the premise of the thread even with the original poster including errors in his post attaching white and brees to that. Edited March 6 by MikePJ76 Quote
Billl Posted March 6 Posted March 6 Cool, so we're back to the idea that players only put a team over the top to win a championship if it's done in year one. (But that only counts if they're signed as free agents. If they're drafted, they can put a team over the top years down the road because reasons. Undrafted free agents are a little murky, so signing Kurt Warner may or may not have directly contributed to the Rams winning a Superbowl. Then there are guys like John Elway, Eli Manning, and Jim Kelly where is really hard to say whether or not they directly helped their teams advance to and/or win Superbowls). Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted March 6 Posted March 6 5 hours ago, MikePJ76 said: The thread is about Free Agent Signings that put teams over the top. I pointed out that Charles Haley Was not a free agent signing. Haley brought an element Dallas did not have for the most part in 90 and 91 when they turned it around. However their defensive line was pretty good, it was their secondary that needed the most work and that is why Detroit with that unique for the time Run n Shoot offense was a mismatch. Detroit also was impossible to beat at the silverdome that year. Since you want to take this approach with me I will respond accordingly. I started watching the nfl as a kid in 83. I am well aware of that era of the nfl. Dallas had another excellent draft in 92 which added to the team Kevin Smith, Robert Jones and Darren Woodson. Smith was outstanding, Jones was the rookie of the year and Woodson had a hall of fame career. Woodson is still the modern day prototype safety, Big and strong to play the run but quick and agile enough to cover the slot. He should be in the hall of fame. During the season they traded for safety Thomas Everett. They completely remade their secondary in 92 and it was unique for the time with a guy like woodson playing in Dallas mostly Cover 4 scheme on the backend. Haley was brought in right before the summer and fit right in providing the edge rush they needed but Dallas defense improved tremendously that offseason Haley withstanding. I remember that Dallas draft so well because they drafted a player from Tennessee who went the rival high school of my high school....He was from Rome Free Academy (Rome, NY) and I was in 9th grade at the time at Proctor High School (Utica, NY) RFA and Proctor were rivals especially in baseball (my sport). Both had (Have) excellent baseball programs. so again the thread is about free agent signings and you are mansplaining (somewhat incorrectly) Haley's importance to Dallas defense. So one more time, Charles Haley was not a free agent signing that led to a championship because he was not a free agent signing. that was 4 seasons later. The packers underwent a ton of change in those 4 years before they won the superbowl. They got beat by Dallas in each of those 3 playoff losses in part because their big time free agent signing, Reggie White got manhandled by Dallas right tackle Eric Williams. Williams owned white. Like I said the Cowboys had no pass rush in 1991. Without a pass rush you aren't winning a SB in any era. Haley was the catalyst. So all that rosterbating in the back 7 you are doing is irrelevant without changing that aspect. Haley joined largely the same group of pass rushers and they basically doubled their team sack production. End of story. Did other acquisitions contribute? Sure but you could say that about other acquisitions in Tampa when Brady arrived or the Rams when Stafford arrived. It's not a state secret how huge the acquisition of Haley was you just didn't understand it in the moment. Some of us did. 1 1 Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 6 Posted March 6 7 hours ago, MikePJ76 said: Haley was a trade. Dallas had all the parts already, they had another excellent draft in 92 adding guys like Darren Woodson and Kevin Smith. My bad. I am usually better with my facts. You are correct. Quote
MikePJ76 Posted March 7 Posted March 7 (edited) 4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Like I said the Cowboys had no pass rush in 1991. Without a pass rush you aren't winning a SB in any era. Haley was the catalyst. So all that rosterbating in the back 7 you are doing is irrelevant without changing that aspect. Haley joined largely the same group of pass rushers and they basically doubled their team sack production. End of story. Did other acquisitions contribute? Sure but you could say that about other acquisitions in Tampa when Brady arrived or the Rams when Stafford arrived. It's not a state secret how huge the acquisition of Haley was you just didn't understand it in the moment. Some of us did. I umm understood it very clearly. Haley was an unstoppable force and a certified lunatic. His going to Dallas that training camp was bad for everyone. It wasn't haley alone though as people try to make it seem. They had tremendous linebackers and the secondary was completely remade with great players. It was still a trade however. That defense got better all over in 92. And again to your point about why Dallas lost to the lions in 91, it was more of a matchup issue and location issue...not to mention Troy Aikman did not start though healthy after Steve Burlein played so well over the last half of the year and helped them beat the bears in soldier field the previous week in the wild card round. Dallas had already lost at detroit earlier in the year. Their secondary was not up to that challenge. The lions were unbeatable at home in 91 and I think they were like undefeated in domes or on turf? Something like that. I believe they were among the best in protecting the quarterback that season having given up what appears to be 25 sacks that year which is impressive for a team that played a base set with 4 wr in 1991. Edited March 7 by MikePJ76 Quote
MikePJ76 Posted March 7 Posted March 7 4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: My bad. I am usually better with my facts. You are correct. no need to apologize or whatever. This thread is crazy. Quote
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