Ryan Bates traded

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

 

What I really meant (and I believe DJB also meant) was how badly Josh was pass protected (from the center position and as a unit) in year one.

 

I agree, and we all know, that Josh's drive & determination is really the reason that he has become who he is and improved so much from year one to year three.

 

And I am not sure I agree that Josh was an ascending QB the moment he stepped off the Wyoming field. Josh's ascent was quite an unusual improvement in terms of accuracy... very few QBs get more accurate from college to the NFL - - probably the reason there were so many Bills fans (myself included) who wanted Josh Rosen over him on draft day! 😅

 

The moment for me that I knew he was special was not "the leap" and underdog 'W' versus the Vikings, it was the home game vs Miami (the Kyle WIlliams game). He was unstoppable!

 

After he left Wyoming, he immediately went to work with Palmer and between that time and draft time his draft stock sky rocketed to where he was even getting first overall consideration.  And it was because of the remarkable improvements he was showing in short windows and wowing during workouts and the combine.  There really was not a period of Josh's career after stepping off the Wyoming field the last time where he wasn't showing significant improvement in short windows.  So, I get what you are saying, but I would still argue that Josh began his ascent when he first started his work with Palmer and that ascent continued at every stage of his career since.  

2 hours ago, DJB said:

 

I should have rephrased it to “running for his life”. That was more of the sentiment I was alluding to 

 

Gotcha, and that is fair...the OL was scary bad his rookie year.  

[Billsatlastin2018]

Damn!

 

Next thing you know, Master will be getting a hand out the door!

Edited March 5 by Billsatlastin2018

[Green Lightning]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

And? 
 

 

I don't relish watchig that movie again. It's time to move away from expensive vets who haven't gotten you to the promised land. I don't expect they'll improve. I've seen enough of Morse moonwalked by a bull rush.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is something I will staunchly disagree with. We have to start being ruthless. The Pats were a dynasty for 20 years because of that ruthless mindset. The Chiefs are now following suit. Morse has done everything right since day one. He has been a model player. And that should have zero impact on our decision to keep or cut him.

Ultimately, it comes down to his play. That should be the impact and his play has been very good.

 

Here's the thing about comparing what the Patriots did back in the day and what the Chiefs are currently doing; to the Bills approach. Rings buy you the benefit of the doubt. You can have that ruthless mindset when you're playing for the title every year. People will put up with that. They won't for less. Look what happened as soon as Brady left and the Super Bowl train stopped in New England. It became a place free agents avoided and vets walked away from. 

 

Now, I am part of the group that wants younger/cheaper options. However, going with some younger players actually cements in my mind the need for a guy like Morse. Leadership. Mentorship. Setting the example of how it's done here. I'm going to wait and see what they end up with on his contract before I get too far up the road in judging too harshly if he's here or not. I will agree the number must come down in some way to make sense. 

[Green Lightning]

25 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Ok. So re sign Edwards who was ahead of Bates and build on our Tackles.

And if you're putting that game on the OL because 1 play, I just can't respect your football knowledge 

And if you're jumping to that conclusion based on one post, I just can't respect you as a poster.

[Don Otreply]

8 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

I don't relish watchig that movie again. It's time to move away from expensive vets who haven't gotten you to the promised land. I don't expect they'll improve. I've seen enough of Morse moonwalked by a bull rush.

I see, 

[Fan in Chicago]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is something I will staunchly disagree with. We have to start being ruthless. The Pats were a dynasty for 20 years because of that ruthless mindset. The Chiefs are now following suit. Morse has done everything right since day one. He has been a model player. And that should have zero impact on our decision to keep or cut him.

It's much easier for a FO to follow that strategy after winning one SB. But Bills have to be careful. Esp on the OL which they finally got right. Don't mess with that at this point. 

We still need depth and a succession plan for older linemen like Morse and Dawkins. So, at least one OL needs to be drafted in April. 

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Look what happened as soon as Brady left and the Super Bowl train stopped in New England. It became a place free agents avoided and vets walked away from. 

 

That's because Belichick and co. are not fun coaches to be around. It has nothing to do with the roster management strategy. We have tried the friendly family environment and it hasn't earned us a bunch of free agent discounts. Players know it is a business.

[Turk71]

On PFF, Morse was rated 20th out of 36 qualified centers last season and has been slipping every season.

He is near the end of his career and needs to be replaced soon.

I know that many think PFF is garbage and I take their ratings with some skepticism myself; but on the other hand all 32 NFL teams (including the Bills) pay for their professional services.

[BillsFanForever19]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

After this I am all but certain Morse is on the team. I could see cutting him and keeping Bates. I think that and diverting the money was probably my preference but I understand why keeping the best line of the Allen era together was their priority and so getting something back for Bates makes sense.

 

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am neither amazed by Beane or ignore the bad with the Bills. But I always felt Bates / Morse was an either / or this year. I'd have leaned the other way (cut Morse, start Bates, draft a young IOL 3rd or later) but I understand going the other way. Was a close call for me.

 

Agreed. I always saw the options as:

 

a.) We keep them both. Restructure to Morse and pay cut to Bates.

 

b.) We keep Morse on a restructure, but move on from Bates in his out year.

 

c.) We keep Bates, cut Morse.

 

I never saw a scenario where we moved on from both and started from scratch. I saw options A & B as the most likely, but wouldn't have had an issue with C either.

 

But then, as i've said, I listened to Beane at the Combine say multiple times unprompted "last year was the best OL I've had since I've been here". In hearing that, it was pretty clear to me he wasn't going to replace people on the Starting 5 and mess with the continuity.

 

And now they've moved on from Bates. If you're someone who's hoping for an Outright cut of Morse at 8.5m saved v. a restructuring that can save us 5m - you're pounding the table for something I see as EXTREMELY unlikely. 

 

If he were to have no possibility of saving money any other way than a release or he performed poorly last season, it would be a no brainer. But those things don't apply and if they had - we'd have kept Bates.

 

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is something I will staunchly disagree with. We have to start being ruthless. The Pats were a dynasty for 20 years because of that ruthless mindset. The Chiefs are now following suit. Morse has done everything right since day one. He has been a model player. And that should have zero impact on our decision to keep or cut him.

 

The Chiefs aren't exactly following suit. There's a major difference between cutting a player and saving 3.49m before the decline hits based solely on age and the Tyreek Hill and L'Jarius Sneed situations.

 

In Tyreek Hill, they wanted him back. They just weren't interested in paying him the $120m contract he would get in Miami. The same goes for Sneed. They have a number they're willing to pay and have made it known that if they can't agree on that number - they'll move him the same way.

 

Those aren't comparable situations to cutting someone under contract for a differential of 3.49m. Nor is the situation of the Chiefs or the Patriots where they are/were when they did these things v. where The Bills are now.

 

The Chiefs and the Pats at the time of doing some of these moves had won Lombardi's already. When you've gotten a Championship or multiple already, it's easier to be a little more risk taking with the moves you make at certain spots. There's a built in equity when it comes to a Dynasty taking risks that doesn't apply here.

 

If we choose to jump the gun Belichick style at a position, betting on the decline coming before it happens, and the OL takes a step back and/or the new guy and Josh have bad snaps due to unfamiliarity - it's a lot worse in the situation we're in than a team that has hoisted the trophy already.

Edited March 6 by BillsFanForever19

[Aussie Joe]

Here is Morse’s replacement come 2025 with the pick they got for Bates …His name is Tanor Bortolini …

 

 

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

After he left Wyoming, he immediately went to work with Palmer and between that time and draft time his draft stock sky rocketed to where he was even getting first overall consideration.  And it was because of the remarkable improvements he was showing in short windows and wowing during workouts and the combine.  There really was not a period of Josh's career after stepping off the Wyoming field the last time where he wasn't showing significant improvement in short windows.  So, I get what you are saying, but I would still argue that Josh began his ascent when he first started his work with Palmer and that ascent continued at every stage of his career since.  

 

Well there was some talk of JA being at the top of the previous draft class as well (if he came out early). And there's footage of Josh on some podcast telling the story of why he stuck around for another year mainly because he just couldn't look his coach in the eye & tell the only guy who gave him a D1 chance that he was leaving early (along with all of the other offensive talent that was graduating).

 

But I do agree that his work with Jordan Palmer was very significant in getting him NFL ready & then some. In fact, Palmer was the first guy who really tipped me off to the idea that we may really have a unicorn on our hands... he would often refer to Josh as 'one of the most talented people to ever play the position' and I would say he has been proven correct at this point. 

[BillsFanForever19]

8 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Here is Morse’s replacement come 2025 with the pick they got for Bates …His name is Tanor Bortolini …

 

 

 

The hype on him following the Combine is at a level where I've seen him discussed as high as Round 2. His ascension being compared to a Cole Strange like prospect that gets Drafted shockingly high.

 

If he were available close to the pick we acquired for moving Bates, sure. But a Day 2 Pick for a starting Center a year from now with the things we have to get done in this Draft is a little rich for my blood.

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uw/2024/03/03/wisconsins-tanor-bortolini-delivers-eye-popping-results-at-nfl-combine/72834346007/

[klos63]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

After this I am all but certain Morse is on the team. I could see cutting him and keeping Bates. I think that and diverting the money was probably my preference but I understand why keeping the best line of the Allen era together was their priority and so getting something back for Bates makes sense.

Also, we have a very good Oline coach, entering his 3rd season with the team. I think he knows who will work in his system and who won't. My guess is that he didn't see Bates being the right fit for what he wants to see.

[Aussie Joe]

29 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The hype on him following the Combine is at a level where I've seen him discussed as high as Round 2. His ascension being compared to a Cole Strange like prospect that gets Drafted shockingly high.

 

If he were available close to the pick we acquired for moving Bates, sure. But a Day 2 Pick for a starting Center a year from now with the things we have to get done in this Draft is a little rich for my blood.

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uw/2024/03/03/wisconsins-tanor-bortolini-delivers-eye-popping-results-at-nfl-combine/72834346007/

No way at 60 … but possibly with their end of third … they have shown the last 2 years that they are prepared to play a long game with their third round picks 

Edited March 6 by Aussie Joe

[BuffaL0L0k0]

23 hours ago, SWATeam said:

Many thought he was to take over for Morse

Gimme the over! please...

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, HankBulloughMellencamp said:

 

Well there was some talk of JA being at the top of the previous draft class as well (if he came out early). And there's footage of Josh on some podcast telling the story of why he stuck around for another year mainly because he just couldn't look his coach in the eye & tell the only guy who gave him a D1 chance that he was leaving early (along with all of the other offensive talent that was graduating).

 

But I do agree that his work with Jordan Palmer was very significant in getting him NFL ready & then some. In fact, Palmer was the first guy who really tipped me off to the idea that we may really have a unicorn on our hands... he would often refer to Josh as 'one of the most talented people to ever play the position' and I would say he has been proven correct at this point. 

 

Yeah same, it was his work with Palmer that took me from not very interested early in the offseason to wanting him on draft night. 

[John from Riverside]

I do wonder what the current plan is for back up center now that they have Mr. dependable traded to the Bears
 

I don’t want to see a situation where there is a line reshuffle leave McGovern where he is

[gonzo1105]

26 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I do wonder what the current plan is for back up center now that they have Mr. dependable traded to the Bears
 

I don’t want to see a situation where there is a line reshuffle leave McGovern where he is

It’s Alec Anderson 

[Big Blitz]

We’re in the process of a trade up to 9.  Please say this deal isn’t done.  
 

 

Edited March 6 by Big Blitz