julian Posted February 16 Posted February 16 24 minutes ago, Billl said: Clearly 98% of the voters are just morons and the guy who finished 5th deserved to win. Clearly as a KC fan you’re going to feel biased towards your guy, and I find no fault in that. It would be strange if you didn’t feel as though your awesome 3x Super Bowl winning QB was so untouchable. That being said, a person can look at all the success KC has had and believe Mahomes is clearly on the GOAT path and may get there, but can also look at the QB and his individual play and say there’s nothing on the field he can do that Allen can’t, and as a matter of fact, there’s actually things Allen does on the field that no other QB can duplicate. its no different than looking at Brady and saying of course he’s the GOAT and Manning isn’t, at the same time saying… Manning was a better player. Having team success and being the GOAT at the end of your career is about accomplishments, Manning’s tell fell short in that regard but most acknowledge Manning as the better player. I suspect in 15 years when Mahomes/Allen are retired the same conversation will take place with most acknowledging Mahomes as the GOAT or possibly in the GOAT conversation at least and at the same time recognizing Allen as the better player. Quote
Billl Posted February 16 Posted February 16 Just now, julian said: Clearly as a KC fan you’re going to feel biased towards your guy, and I find no fault in that. It would be strange if you didn’t feel as though your awesome 3x Super Bowl winning QB was so untouchable. That being said, a person can look at all the success KC has had and believe Mahomes is clearly on the GOAT path and may get there, but can also look at the QB and his individual play and say there’s nothing on the field he can do that Allen can’t, and as a matter of fact, there’s actually things Allen does on the field that no other QB can duplicate. its no different than looking at Brady and saying of course he’s the GOAT and Manning isn’t, at the same time saying… Manning was a better player. Having team success and being the GOAT at the end of your career is about accomplishments, Manning’s tell fell short in that regard but most acknowledge Manning as the better player. I suspect in 15 years when Mahomes/Allen are retired the same conversation will take place with most acknowledging Mahomes as the GOAT or possibly in the GOAT conversation at least and at the same time recognizing Allen as the better player. I don’t think Mahomes deserved to win MVP this year. Quote
julian Posted February 16 Posted February 16 Just now, Billl said: I don’t think Mahomes deserved to win MVP this year. I don’t think you’re alone lol 1 Quote
SaulGoodman Posted February 17 Posted February 17 18 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Josh... 5-5 playoff record 2,723 yards passing 21 touchdowns 4 interceptions 563 yards rushing 5 rushing TDs . Jackson... 2-4 playoff record 1,324 yards passing 6 touchdowns 6 interceptions 521 yards rushing 3 rushing TDs. Lamar, sadly, pretty much ensured (somehow) he will be in the HOF as a 2 time League MVP. Josh (somehow) still has work he's gotta do to be considered. Discuss... Don’t you think it’s a little disingenuous to compare stats from a 10 game sample to 6 games? None of these stats had any bearing on the MVP votes anyway. Quote
90sBills Posted February 17 Posted February 17 9 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Just curious, what is the point of this? To make fun of the slower kid because we can’t catch the faster one. Just an analogy. 1 Quote
SaulGoodman Posted February 17 Posted February 17 1 hour ago, julian said: Clearly as a KC fan you’re going to feel biased towards your guy, and I find no fault in that. It would be strange if you didn’t feel as though your awesome 3x Super Bowl winning QB was so untouchable. That being said, a person can look at all the success KC has had and believe Mahomes is clearly on the GOAT path and may get there, but can also look at the QB and his individual play and say there’s nothing on the field he can do that Allen can’t, and as a matter of fact, there’s actually things Allen does on the field that no other QB can duplicate. I’d argue that the only thing Allen can do that Mahomes can’t is run over someone. I’d also argue that Mahomes is capable of things that Allen isn’t, particularly from the mental aspect of the game. Which is huge, even though most focus on physical attributes. Regardless, this isn’t the way to evaluate a player. Mike Vick could do things that no other QB could do. Does that make him better than Allen and Brady? Of course not, because he was too flawed in other areas. A lot of QBs can pull off great plays at times. What separates the best is the ability to consistently make great plays, and at the biggest moments. Allen and Mahomes both make plenty of great plays, but the main thing that separates them is that Mahomes has a much lower rate of INTs and fumbles throughout his career. You can dismiss this, but it’s a major factor that Bills fans always ignore. Mahomes is like a Favre who makes fewer mistakes than Brady. 1 hour ago, julian said: its no different than looking at Brady and saying of course he’s the GOAT and Manning isn’t, at the same time saying… Manning was a better player. Having team success and being the GOAT at the end of your career is about accomplishments, Manning’s tell fell short in that regard but most acknowledge Manning as the better player. I suspect in 15 years when Mahomes/Allen are retired the same conversation will take place with most acknowledging Mahomes as the GOAT or possibly in the GOAT conversation at least and at the same time recognizing Allen as the better player. What? You think most consider Manning better than Brady? Maybe early in their careers. No one claims that now. 2 Quote
transplantbillsfan Posted February 17 Author Posted February 17 2 hours ago, SaulGoodman said: Don’t you think it’s a little disingenuous to compare stats from a 10 game sample to 6 games? None of these stats had any bearing on the MVP votes anyway. So average it out if you want. How about Passer Rating? Josh Allen has a Passer Rating of exactly 100 in those 10 games. Lamar's is 75.7. And other people brought up MVP votes, I didn't. OP was more just a springboard for discussion. Quote
SaulGoodman Posted February 17 Posted February 17 4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: So average it out if you want. How about Passer Rating? Josh Allen has a Passer Rating of exactly 100 in those 10 games. Lamar's is 75.7. And other people brought up MVP votes, I didn't. OP was more just a springboard for discussion. I don’t think very many people consider Jackson a better QB than Allen. Some just believe he had a better regular season. Primarily because Allen had a lot more interceptions and double the INT rate. Quote
GunnerBill Posted February 17 Posted February 17 7 hours ago, SaulGoodman said: What? You think most consider Manning better than Brady? Maybe early in their careers. No one claims that now. Agreed. Quote
Doc Brown Posted February 17 Posted February 17 21 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said: I mean... Imagine if it was unanimous? Whoever voted for Allen (even though I don't agree with him - thought it should be McCaffrey) deserves a medal for not falling into groupthink. 1 1 Quote
GunnerBill Posted February 17 Posted February 17 6 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: Imagine if it was unanimous? Whoever voted for Allen (even though I don't agree with him - thought it should be McCaffrey) deserves a medal for not falling into groupthink. It was Aaron Schatz. And yea it happens every year now with MVP. The groupthink makes the vote itself a foregone conclusion. Quote
julian Posted February 17 Posted February 17 12 hours ago, SaulGoodman said: I’d argue that the only thing Allen can do that Mahomes can’t is run over someone. I’d also argue that Mahomes is capable of things that Allen isn’t, particularly from the mental aspect of the game. Which is huge, even though most focus on physical attributes. Regardless, this isn’t the way to evaluate a player. Mike Vick could do things that no other QB could do. Does that make him better than Allen and Brady? Of course not, because he was too flawed in other areas. A lot of QBs can pull off great plays at times. What separates the best is the ability to consistently make great plays, and at the biggest moments. Allen and Mahomes both make plenty of great plays, but the main thing that separates them is that Mahomes has a much lower rate of INTs and fumbles throughout his career. You can dismiss this, but it’s a major factor that Bills fans always ignore. Mahomes is like a Favre who makes fewer mistakes than Brady. What? You think most consider Manning better than Brady? Maybe early in their careers. No one claims that now. No one ? lol … I think it’s a view many fans hold, I’d take a rookie Manning over a rookie Brady to start a franchise 100% of the time. Quote
Just in Atlanta Posted February 17 Posted February 17 I’m not sure how Lamar was such an overwhelming MVP choice. He was anointed by Week 3. Why is the question. Quote
SaulGoodman Posted February 17 Posted February 17 32 minutes ago, Just in Atlanta said: I’m not sure how Lamar was such an overwhelming MVP choice. He was anointed by Week 3. Why is the question. I think it’s bizarre that it was overwhelming too. Quote
86poker Posted February 17 Posted February 17 On 2/16/2024 at 8:07 AM, Chicken Boo said: How about we raise that bar a bit. Mahomes is the standard, not Lamar Jackson. If you projected Allen's playoff stats over 18 games Mahomes / Allen (projected 18 games) 5,135 / 4901 yards 41 / 38 TD's 8 / 7 INT's 524 / 1013 yards rushing 5 / 9 rushing TD's Quote
Toyo321 Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) Lamar is a overpriced average QB that will never win a SB for the Ravens. He is a terrible in playoff games when it matters. Even worse than JA17. Josh at least leaves it all out on the field. I can't say that about Lamar. Lamar makes some bad throws too when he has no pressure on him. He does this constantly. Then he has a temper tantrum on the sidelines and hangs his head. Josh is starting to get better in this aspect of his game. Josh needs some work here too but Lamar is just terrible. Now we have to wait a entire 2024 season to see what happens in this coming playoff season. Lamar, in this article by Total Pro Sports, is given an A- and Josh gets a C+. It is amazing how biased the media is towards Lamar Jackson. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/final-grades-for-all-32-nfl-teams-starting-quarterbacks-for-the-2023-season-after-super-bowl-58/ss-BB1iotgR?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=0304d17bd6784987a1b6c1c9962e0bb2&ei=74#interstitial=2 Edited February 18 by Toyo321 Quote
transplantbillsfan Posted February 17 Author Posted February 17 11 hours ago, SaulGoodman said: I don’t think very many people consider Jackson a better QB than Allen. Some just believe he had a better regular season. Primarily because Allen had a lot more interceptions and double the INT rate. Maybe... but I don't know. It's kinda my offseason resolution to stop listening to the national talking heads, but how many of them ever actually say that Josh is better? None of them are afraid to consistently talk about Mahomes being the best QB in the NFL (and rightly so), but you don't really hear them separate that next tier of Elite QBs in Allen, Burrow & Lamar. The only one who consistently does is that Bills Troll Nick Wright, who always has Lamar ahead of Allen Quote
zow2 Posted February 17 Posted February 17 3 hours ago, Toyo321 said: Lamar is a overpriced average QB that will never win a SB for the Ravens. He is a terrible in playoff games when it matters. Even worse than JA17. Josh at least leaves it all out on the field. I can't say that about Lamar. Lemar makes some bad throws too when he has no pressure on him. He does this constantly. Then he has a temper tantrum on the sidelines and hangs his head. Josh is starting to get better in this aspect of his game. Josh needs some work here too but Lamar is just terrible. Now we have to wait a entire 2024 season to see what happens in this coming playoff season. Lamar, in this article by Total Pro Sports, is given an A- and Josh gets a C+. It is amazing how biased the media is towards Lamar Jackson. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/final-grades-for-all-32-nfl-teams-starting-quarterbacks-for-the-2023-season-after-super-bowl-58/ss-BB1iotgR?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=0304d17bd6784987a1b6c1c9962e0bb2&ei=74#interstitial=2 To give Allen the same grade as Minshew and Browning is absurdity. He’s simply held to a different standard than Lamar and everyone else. And the turnovers for Josh are magnified times 10. If Lamar had 10 more rushing TDs added to his 2023 stats media would be gushing. 1 Quote
Doc Brown Posted February 17 Posted February 17 10 hours ago, GunnerBill said: It was Aaron Schatz. And yea it happens every year now with MVP. The groupthink makes the vote itself a foregone conclusion. Aaron Schatz? Interesting. The analytic guys that used to hate him are now his biggest defenders. 1 Quote
Chicken Boo Posted February 17 Posted February 17 7 hours ago, 86poker said: If you projected Allen's playoff stats over 18 games Mahomes / Allen (projected 18 games) 5,135 / 4901 yards 41 / 38 TD's 8 / 7 INT's 524 / 1013 yards rushing 5 / 9 rushing TD's But that's not the way it works. Mahomes had a terrible time in Super Bowl LV running for his life, but thems the breaks. Can't be great all the time. Quote
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