The Wiz Posted February 15 Posted February 15 4 minutes ago, julian said: I personally don’t give a damn if criminals are locked up for ever or have their hands cut off because I’m not a criminal and I respect people and their property. now I understand my view is drastic and some may deem it barbaric, but I know what stops a criminal 100% from hurting citizens further.. being locked up so the rest of us can simply live our lives peacefully. That’s all I got, I’m a caveman though lol. 1 1
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 15 Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, julian said: I personally don’t give a damn if criminals are locked up for ever or have their hands cut off because I’m not a criminal and I respect people and their property. now I understand my view is drastic and some may deem it barbaric, but I know what stops a criminal 100% from hurting citizens further.. being locked up so the rest of us can simply live our lives peacefully. That’s all I got, I’m a caveman though lol. Tell you what... If that's all you got, when it comes to rights, would you trade the 2nd for the 8th. That being... Give up the 8th, but you gotta give 2nd too.
julian Posted February 15 Posted February 15 16 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Tell you what... If that's all you got, when it comes to rights, would you trade the 2nd for the 8th. That being... Give up the 8th, but you gotta give 2nd too. Unfortunately I don’t have a 2nd, 8th or any of the others, sadly I live in a country that doesn’t value the individual rights as your country does. I’m not sure how many Americans know just how lucky they are to be living as free as they do. 4 1 4
Dancing Fool Posted February 15 Posted February 15 1 hour ago, julian said: Unfortunately I don’t have a 2nd, 8th or any of the others, sadly I live in a country that doesn’t value the individual rights as your country does. I’m not sure how many Americans know just how lucky they are to be living as free as they do. There are certainly many areas that are worse off than America when it comes to restricting how their citizens act, but let me tell you that much of the individual rights championed in documents such as the bill of rights serve more as hype building tools than anything that is actually effectively in practice these days. Perhaps the country is more civilized than it once was. It has sacrificed much to get here. 2 1
sleeby Posted February 15 Posted February 15 2 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: That link you posted purposely omits mass shootings that are due to gang violence or inner-city disputes. Those incidents make up roughly 75% of the shootings where there are four or more casualties. Blaming America's gun violence problem on white people is insanely detached from reality. From reading your posts I gather that you are not losing sleep over gangsters shooting one another nor your inner city disputes line. I think most Americans are far more concerned with shootings that harm innocent people. So why not just look at that? Sure, sometimes gang violence harms innocent bystanders but those bystanders are likely also not the kind you lose sleep over. 1
Augie Posted February 15 Posted February 15 2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said: Well this means I am probably perfect. I am Asian so I satisfy the family demands that she must be with an Asian man and also white so I can satisfy the GF demands. Linky? 1
HardyBoy Posted February 15 Posted February 15 4 hours ago, Heels20X6 said: But the reason it won't be truly discussed with the racial element attached to it is because no one will be honest as to WHY crime and especially crime amongst black men in inner cities is so high. Because that requires us to look at the institutions/policies/systems that were put in place to bring such levels of abject poverty and lack of opportunity that crime becomes palatable. It's just easier to sit there on a high horse and say "black men are more violent than white men" without any context whatsover. Right! And that right there is where the conversation typically falls apart and it's really weird. Like I don't know if it's because people are conditioned to say there are systemic issues outside of just guns that are causing this (which I agree with and think there is a ton of sensible common ground). And then it's like ok, let's talk about some of the specific systemic things that are causing these issues and the response is no, none of that is true. "Father's aren't present!" Well yeah, we have a private prison system that has literal contracts guanteeing them a certain number of inmates annually, and non violent drug laws that are either applied to minorities more (whites and blacks smoke pot at the same rate, but are arrested for it at an insanely higher rate) or sentencing guidelines are just absolutely insane (cocaine and crack are the same drug, but you used to get 5x more jail time for the same weight of crack as coke and those laws were written that way intentionally to go after black people). Or how a lot of the prior convictions that people are talking about up thread are due to people plea bargening because they are not able to afford bail and have no choice, but to plea out either because of a completely broken and underfunded public defender system or because they will lose their job if they have to spend time in jail for pre-trail lockup. Now you're on parole, which costs money and if you get in trouble at that point they don't even have to prove you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You want to talk about systemic issues? Years 0-3 are probably the most important years in terms of development. Yet you have food deserts, high risk of lead contaminated water, lack of adequate child care options and the thing I find the absolutely most crazy...diaper poverty...snap doesn't pay for diapers, so you have moms that aren't able to take their kids to daycare so they can work or go to school because the kid has no diapers, it's so screwed up. There's countless other systemic things impacting people in inner cities, which are predominantly minority. This narrative that it's cultural for black people and a choice is so dumb, especially when you look at poverty in rural places and suddenly you're seeing the same "culture" MLK wasn't killed because he was trying to end segregation, he was killed because he shifted his focus to bringing all poor people together to end institutional poverty. Unfortunately basically everytime I try and engage with people in good faith on the gun violence conversation, they say the right things about wanting to shift it away from guns and look at it systemically and holistically (which of course guns are a part of that whole)...but then it turns out that it's invariably an act to get the conversation to shift away from guns and then suddenly there aren't any systemic things impacting people, it's all "culture" 2 3
TBBills Fan Posted February 15 Posted February 15 29 minutes ago, HardyBoy said: Right! And that right there is where the conversation typically falls apart and it's really weird. Like I don't know if it's because people are conditioned to say there are systemic issues outside of just guns that are causing this (which I agree with and think there is a ton of sensible common ground). And then it's like ok, let's talk about some of the specific systemic things that are causing these issues and the response is no, none of that is true. "Father's aren't present!" Well yeah, we have a private prison system that has literal contracts guanteeing them a certain number of inmates annually, and non violent drug laws that are either applied to minorities more (whites and blacks smoke pot at the same rate, but are arrested for it at an insanely higher rate) or sentencing guidelines are just absolutely insane (cocaine and crack are the same drug, but you used to get 5x more jail time for the same weight of crack as coke and those laws were written that way intentionally to go after black people). Or how a lot of the prior convictions that people are talking about up thread are due to people plea bargening because they are not able to afford bail and have no choice, but to plea out either because of a completely broken and underfunded public defender system or because they will lose their job if they have to spend time in jail for pre-trail lockup. Now you're on parole, which costs money and if you get in trouble at that point they don't even have to prove you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. You want to talk about systemic issues? Years 0-3 are probably the most important years in terms of development. Yet you have food deserts, high risk of lead contaminated water, lack of adequate child care options and the thing I find the absolutely most crazy...diaper poverty...snap doesn't pay for diapers, so you have moms that aren't able to take their kids to daycare so they can work or go to school because the kid has no diapers, it's so screwed up. There's countless other systemic things impacting people in inner cities, which are predominantly minority. This narrative that it's cultural for black people and a choice is so dumb, especially when you look at poverty in rural places and suddenly you're seeing the same "culture" MLK wasn't killed because he was trying to end segregation, he was killed because he shifted his focus to bringing all poor people together to end institutional poverty. Unfortunately basically everytime I try and engage with people in good faith on the gun violence conversation, they say the right things about wanting to shift it away from guns and look at it systemically and holistically (which of course guns are a part of that whole)...but then it turns out that it's invariably an act to get the conversation to shift away from guns and then suddenly there aren't any systemic things impacting people, it's all "culture" ***** yes. Well said.
sleeby Posted February 16 Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: Oh my God, dude, do you realize that you posted this comment on a thread about a shooting that happened yesterday where two dozen innocent people were shot? Where an innocent woman was killed? I'm sure you think this was gang related. I'll hold.out for more info. Looks more like young aholes with.22 pistols who may or may not be in gangs. Clearly this incident is a completely different animal from school shootings, LV, Buffalo and on and on. They clearly did not come to kill lots of innocent people; thankfully. Anyhow, my reply was to your complaint that inner city gang shootings are comparable to say the Tops shooter. Entirely different crimes.
HardyBoy Posted February 16 Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: Wrong. West Virginia is the poorest state in the union, has a debilitating drug problem, and it's 97% white. It's violent crime is below the national average. People like you who CONSTANTLY make excuses for what is clearly a cultural problem with violence in that community is why nothing ever changes and nothing ever gets fixed. How does west Virginia have anything to do with what we're talking about? Also, West Virginia hasn't been subjected to hundreds of years of systemic roadblocks. You could say things like company stores and lacking education to keep the population reliant on jobs working in dangerous coal mine conditions for sure, but those are very very different social and behavioral and opportunity constraints compared to what happened in black neighborhoods. Nixon literally had retaliatory laws passed against black people because they voted against him. Black people were lynched. When they fled places like Tulsa after there was basically a pogrom done on them when it was known as Black Wallstreet, they fled to places like Rochester and Boston and faced arguably even worse oppression through segregation and red lining and all that...Rochester, the home of Fredrick Douglass and a key stop on the Underground Railroad less than 100 years later treated essentially political refugees and asylum seekers, their own county's citizens absolutely terribly. When they finally had enough of the literal ghettos they were forced into and the absolute atrocious treatment by the police, they rioted (seriously, read about the rochester race riots, it's a very nuanced moral issue) white flight happened and they built highways through black neighborhoods on purpose to destroy those places so white people get out of the cities, because it was now illegal to segregate. Let's fast forward to 2008, when predatory loan practices and shredding of government oversight driven by the mortgage lobby, led to an insane amount of wealth being transfered out of the black community and to banks that got bailed out, and those neighborhoods that used to be largely black owned suddenly got foreclosed and gentrified. That West Virginia stat is interesting for sure, but it's on its face not analogous...like using it as an example here is a logical fallacy...I don't know them well enough to name the one it is off the top of my head, but I certainly know it is one. Also, I'm not here to debate the right way to handle generational poverty and lack of opportunity and generational hopelessness...the only culture I want to talk about is how we have a culture of forcing huge swaths of people in this country into never ending poverty... I'm not interested in condemning how people who are living in situations where they have literally no possible way of escaping the level of poverty they are stuck in, just because of the zip code they are in...I have no experience with that life, I have no idea how I would personally handle being in that situation and my guess is you have no idea about it either, yet you cast aspertions. Warren Buffet has said that his vision of society is that it's a random draw, and that people in charge should be governing in a way that they assume that they could be born into any position in life and to do public policy accordingly. How do you think your life would be if you were born into poverty in the inner city? If your school had lead in the water and moldy ceilings and burnt out teachers? If you didn't have access to a grocery store with fresh fruits and vegetables and had to eat processed food for every meal and didn't have access to dental care and your teeth had significant issues by the time you were 5 because of all the sugar drinks you had no choice but to drink because even if you had the money, you would be stuck with sugar drinks because again, no real grocery store and you can't even drink the water because it's contaminated...like empathy dude...even if you're right and I conceded your argument as to it being a "cultural" thing, which I don't, but let's pretend I did for a moment...why did that culture you say exists develop? What were the conditions economically, socially, and politically that fostered that culture to form? Also, maybe you can help define exactly what you mean by "cultural" and what basis you have and what experience you have to adequately and properly label a culture my guess is you have very little actual understanding of or familiarity with other than what is portrayed by the media. And again, the only culture I am really interested in discussing in terms of coming up with solutions here is the culture of building generational poverty through corporate and political and societal policy...corporations are people, cigarette lobbies pushed the government to make policy for years saying cigarettes were safe, highways destroying cities so they could sell cars, etc...you're taking your eye off the real problems because you're letting them trick you into debating cultural formation in systemically oppressed populations...stop doing that, how about instead we work together to see past their bs and work to actually bring about positive change. 2 1
Jauronimo Posted February 16 Posted February 16 9 minutes ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: How do you explain the fact that in countries where redlining and segregation never took place, like Canada and England, they somehow still have the same issue with the same group committing a significantly disproportionate amount of crime? How do you explain that black children raised in wealthy homes are more likely to go to prison than white children raised in poverty? Many of the issues you mentioned, particularly food deserts and white flight, are self-imposed. People do not want to be around rampant criminality and will rightfully choose to avoid it. The gall to claim I've been somehow propagandizedby bad messengers while you spout off complete revisionist history about events like the Tulsa Race Riots (which started when black people killed whites) and their supposed "Black Wall Street" (it was a block with four or five small stores) is laughable. Canada and England have issues with Americans committing violent crimes?
Coach Tuesday Posted February 16 Posted February 16 34 minutes ago, HardyBoy said: Warren Buffet has said that his vision of society is that it's a random draw, and that people in charge should be governing in a way that they assume that they could be born into any position in life and to do public policy accordingly. That’s basically John Rawls’ Theory of Justice. 1
HardyBoy Posted February 16 Posted February 16 13 minutes ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: How do you explain the fact that in countries where redlining and segregation never took place, like Canada and England, they somehow still have the same issue with the same group committing a significantly disproportionate amount of crime? How do you explain that black children raised in wealthy homes are more likely to go to prison than white children raised in poverty? Many of the issues you mentioned, particularly food deserts and white flight, are self-imposed. People do not want to be around rampant criminality and will rightfully choose to avoid it. The gall to claim I've been somehow propagandizedby bad messengers while you spout off complete revisionist history about events like the Tulsa Race Riots (which started when black people killed whites) and their supposed "Black Wall Street" (it was a block with four or five small stores) is laughable. You mean England where they have huge issues with soccer fans singing racist songs against soccer players? Can you tell me about how that same culture exists in South Africa next please. You're just kinda strengthening my argument... and wait, you don't think England had segregation and redlining? Do you not remember the hoopla about Meghan whatever her last name is being half black and the pure royal bloodline?! They are probably more racist in large parts of Europe than in America. Also, like I said always happens, your argument is shallow (I'm not saying you are shallow at all, I don't know you and I am only refering to this specific arguement), just like everyone else I've had this debate with when trying to get past the initial ban guns not ban guns fighting and actually trying to get into the nuance...the person says there is a lot of nuance and it's more than just guns (which I agree with, plus pragmatically, that toothpaste is out of the tube anyway)...so then I get excited for a nuanced debate and then it just stops at culture of criminality where there is not ackwoledgment that even if I were to conceded that point reluctantly, that anythiny actually might have led to that potential culture forming other than I guess genes is not even open for debate...so is that the argument ultimately, genes? It's really hard to distinguish between if it's just a shallow argument either because it's repeating talking points, because it's lack of knowledge on the topic or if it's all just a dog whistle for the great replacement theory. It's annoying because I think there is actually going to be middle ground every time and nope. Also, I'm not saying I am definitely right on everything, I'm open to learning and growing and all that...just not through logical fallacies and shallow concpets that don't actually do a good job of explaining a situation, or like on this case, basically proving systemic oppression leads to systemic problems in the group being oppressed by raising examples of other systemically oppressed communities and then saying see, it's all the same. 3
sonyab1974 Posted February 16 Posted February 16 On 2/14/2024 at 4:05 PM, Bills!Win! said: They’re all there to celebrate the same thing. How can gun violence be involved? I just don’t get it So much hate in this world. It's awful.
Mr. WEO Posted February 16 Posted February 16 19 minutes ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: Wrong. West Virginia is the poorest state in the union, has a debilitating drug problem, and it's 97% white. It's violent crime is below the national average. People like you who CONSTANTLY make excuses for what is clearly a cultural problem with violence in that community is why nothing ever changes and nothing ever gets fixed. Because it's so rural. Hardly anyone lives there---it's largest metropolis is home to 47,000 people.
Success Posted February 16 Posted February 16 18 minutes ago, sonyab1974 said: So much hate in this world. It's awful. Love & kindness is going to win in the end. I'm sure of it. In the meantime, it's just brutal hearing about these kinds of incidents. Sending as many good vibes as I can to the good people of Kansas City & everyone impacted by this. 1
Royale with Cheese Posted February 16 Posted February 16 4 hours ago, Augie said: Linky? I am assuming you mean my Only Fans? 8 hours ago, teef said: Like…we really need to talk about this. You’re getting too old. I ate Wendy's for dinner tonight.
sleeby Posted February 16 Posted February 16 2 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: How do you explain that black children raised in wealthy homes are more likely to go to prison than white children raised in poverty The justice system. Anyone who doesn't understand that is clearly a. . . .person not worth further time. I'm talking to you Chet Morton. ;o) 1 5
Mr. WEO Posted February 16 Posted February 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Patrick Fitzryan said: His specific claim was that you see the same levels of violence in rural areas plagued by poverty. Also, crime rates are generally calculated on a per capita basis and West Virginia is more densely populated than a number of states with higher crime rates. you said the opposite: a rural state like WV has a lower crime rate, not same levels. I was responding to your post Edited February 16 by Mr. WEO 1
Beck Water Posted February 16 Posted February 16 (edited) On 2/14/2024 at 4:48 PM, Patrick Fitzryan said: This is 100% going to be a case of two idiots arguing over who "disrespected" the other one, then firing indiscriminately in each other's direction. They'll both have a ton of prior arrests, including felonies that make any ownership of any firearm illegal, and it will be swept under the rug like every other handgun homicide in this country that isn't politically expedient or helpful for certain narratives. They're juveniles. "Ton of prior arrests including felonies" does not seem likely. https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shooting-kansas-city-chiefs-super-bowl-celebration-investigation/story?id=107254077 14 hours ago, Bob Jones said: Still no suspects publicly named/identified, even though you would certainly think that there were plenty of EYEwitnesses who actually saw the shooters shooting their guns. The "official" word is that they have 3 suspects in custody and also have recovered some guns too. They haven't been publicly named/identified because they are juveniles. The third suspect was determined to not be involved and was released. There may have been others involved, that's being looked at. Edited February 16 by Beck Water 1
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