Multiple people shot at KC parade.

[boyst]

47 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

We are blessed to have not only many Bills fans here, but political experts too 😎

there is no political opinions that were there. it was a response based upon statistics. facts are not opinions. a majority of gun deaths are suicides. Less than 2% are accidental. Somewhere around 40% are homicides. Of those I would have to check again but a small number are considered mass casualty events (4+ deaths) on the standard metric. Stanford had lowered that to 3+, IIRC. Further, of the roughly 40% of homicides, at least half are obtained illegally. The ATF put out a very flawed and critiqued report when they offered the most recent data which put in untraceable firearms in the same category as stolen guns and "other deadly weapons of destruction." Further, less than 15% of the shooters in homicides showed no propensity towards violence or a criminal background. Bringing it back up to simply gun crimes/violence;  roughly 3/4 of those committing those infractions already possess arrest/criminal records.

 

Regardless, these are important factors. They're not political statements. Recidivism, treatment of crime and mental illness, as well as an examination of the causation of crime/violence are pertinent to the discussion. 

4 minutes ago, PayDaBill$ said:

All depends

on what’s behind that data.  Somehow I think all the firearm gang violence and “street” crime & criminal acts are left out under the “mass” shooting designation. If so you’d have to think just Chicago alone would skew those numbers in the opposite direction.

There are some alarming numbers of gun violence % if you remove the 6 biggest cities in the country, those cities all posses some of the strictest gun laws in the country mind you.

 

people flock to believe anything that confirms their bias. someone mentioned it upthread i believe. you're more likely to be bit by a person in central park than by a shark in the ocean.

[Flipnmi]

9 hours ago, muppy said:

greetings. I personally think that the motive may come out. But I am less interested in that as I am the overview of who the shooters were, ages, etc.  Even then the parents of these individuals might, I say MIGHT be fine upstanding people. Or NOT. The Parkland school shooters Mother was recently convicted for her sons being enabled to take a gun and shoot to kill 4 kids. The dad goes on trial next.

 

Noone arrested yet. Clearly developing story  .

 

 

 

It was the mother of the Oxford Mi HS shooter that was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, not Parkland.

[HardyBoy]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

An excellent point ….and if you read through my posts in this thread you’ll find I’ve advocated for one thing, and one thing only: That everyone needs to simmer down, show some respect for those who were hurt or killed, and to wait to learn more about what actually happened before rushing in to solve a virtual cornucopia of society’s problems. Instead, I’ve read that this sad incident should be the launching point to fix student debt, the nuclear family, assault weapons, the second amendment in general, and yes mental health.  

 

In isolation, of course we should let some time go by and mourn the people impacted. Problem is, this isn't an isolated thing...the way the news cycle works is this is going to be thoughts and prayers, anything else isn't respectful..then spend two days arguing it's too soon and a political ploy by the radical left to take away guns (all like literal nra/gun lobby talking points it has been proven and factually reported) and just the same play book over and over.

 

The gun lobby is incredibly powerful, have driven an intentional media and marketing campaign to any reasonable gun legislation, which the vast majority of Americans agree with some level of oversight and regulation.

 

I guess I'm also kind of confused, because we have other amendments that are being legislated and the judiciary sets precedent on all the time that changed and defines the constitution, like Miranda Warnings and such, but you only hear widespread outrage over the 2nd ammendment, when it literally says the words well regulated in the text of it.

 

That's not a political statement either, that's a why is it that people get so worked up about perceived infringement of the 2nd ammendment that it's a literal non-starter, when people aren't trying to talk about infringement, but genuine good faith regulation, but then when you look at something like due process or the government having access to ring camera footage or other types of huge data privacy oversteps by the government, you really don't hear anything.

 

Like the social conditioning aspect of this is insanely interesting to me.

 

I think the secret is to really stop focusing on how people are saying it, and to focus on what they are actually saying...like yeah, that maybe sounded a bit insensitive, but this is a super nuanced topic and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that that was a super nuanced answer, so what exactly do you mean and what exactly are you trying to say, instead of shutting down and just allowing oneself to react in the way we've been conditioned by our respective algorithms. 

[muppy]

4 minutes ago, Flipnmi said:

It was the mother of the Oxford Mi HS shooter that was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, not Parkland.

Thank you. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, teef said:

You guys!!!!!!!

 

What are your thoughts on me, last week, eating McDonald's breakfast 5 days in a row because they had Sausage McMuffins, 2 for $4.39?  I couldn't do day 6 because that's just too much McDonald's.  

[Billsatlastin2018]

Because of the pro gun 2nd Amendment decisions made over the past decades,it no longer matters whether the shooter’s gun is legal or illegal. With an estimated 400 million in circulation, every half sane individual with any agenda about anything/person/institution/cause knows where to get one or three.

 

From his family, from his neighbours, from his friends, from his associates. The resulting massacres are a never ending horror show in America- unstoppable. 
 

A law or laws federally, state wide or municipally are de facto useless. You would need to wind the clock back a half century and make the vast majority of guns unobtainable for the vast majority of people- not called law enforcement, farmers, hunters, gun clubs, etc. 

 

That choice is gone forever in America.

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

In isolation, of course we should let some time go by and mourn the people impacted. Problem is, this isn't an isolated thing...the way the news cycle works is this is going to be thoughts and prayers, anything else isn't respectful..then spend two days arguing it's too soon and a political ploy by the radical left to take away guns (all like literal nra/gun lobby talking points it has been proven and factually reported) and just the same play book over and over.

 

The gun lobby is incredibly powerful, have driven an intentional media and marketing campaign to any reasonable gun legislation, which the vast majority of Americans agree with some level of oversight and regulation.

 

I guess I'm also kind of confused, because we have other amendments that are being legislated and the judiciary sets precedent on all the time that changed and defines the constitution, like Miranda Warnings and such, but you only hear widespread outrage over the 2nd ammendment, when it literally says the words well regulated in the text of it.

 

That's not a political statement either, that's a why is it that people get so worked up about perceived infringement of the 2nd ammendment that it's a literal non-starter, when people aren't trying to talk about infringement, but genuine good faith regulation, but then when you look at something like due process or the government having access to ring camera footage or other types of huge data privacy oversteps by the government, you really don't hear anything.

 

Like the social conditioning aspect of this is insanely interesting to me.

 

I think the secret is to really stop focusing on how people are saying it, and to focus on what they are actually saying...like yeah, that maybe sounded a bit insensitive, but this is a super nuanced topic and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that that was a super nuanced answer, so what exactly do you mean and what exactly are you trying to say, instead of shutting down and just allowing oneself to react in the way we've been conditioned by our respective algorithms. 

That’s a lot of words to say you want the government to impose significant limitations on gun ownership. You’ll notice I’ve not said that I’m either for or against it.  I’m just personally exhausted from the social media driven ‘jump to conclusions’ crowd. 

[strive_for_five_guy]

16 minutes ago, boyst said:

there is no political opinions that were there. it was a response based upon statistics. facts are not opinions. a majority of gun deaths are suicides. Less than 2% are accidental. Somewhere around 40% are homicides. Of those I would have to check again but a small number are considered mass casualty events (4+ deaths) on the standard metric. Stanford had lowered that to 3+, IIRC. Further, of the roughly 40% of homicides, at least half are obtained illegally. The ATF put out a very flawed and critiqued report when they offered the most recent data which put in untraceable firearms in the same category as stolen guns and "other deadly weapons of destruction." Further, less than 15% of the shooters in homicides showed no propensity towards violence or a criminal background. Bringing it back up to simply gun crimes/violence;  roughly 3/4 of those committing those infractions already possess arrest/criminal records.

 

Regardless, these are important factors. They're not political statements. Recidivism, treatment of crime and mental illness, as well as an examination of the causation of crime/violence are pertinent to the discussion. 

There are some alarming numbers of gun violence % if you remove the 6 biggest cities in the country, those cities all posses some of the strictest gun laws in the country mind you.

 

people flock to believe anything that confirms their bias. someone mentioned it upthread i believe. you're more likely to be bit by a person in central park than by a shark in the ocean.

Do you have a point with all the data and stats you’re throwing out there???

[boyst]

6 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Do you have a point with all the data and stats you’re throwing out there???

A. it's not a black/white issue. There are multiple levels to the onions

2) Gun violence is a specific problem in some communities not a national problem

iii. Any statistic is only 97.36% accurate on topical face.

 

 

Also, final post here. 12+ hours after the issue. The perps haven't been named, the national story will be dropped in a few days, this will be forgotten quickly because of the narrative being false.

Edited February 15 by boyst

[Another Fan]

10 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I find it interesting that you consider people not being able to pay off a loan they freely took out for a higher education to be an example of life being hard. Really? That’s your example? 

I think this really depends on a person's age.  I was in high school in the 1990s and 2000s and the idea we must go to college was really pushed hard I thought on our generation.  Like you won't be successful in life without it.  And yeah at 17 I wasn't exactly the best long term planner.  So in that sense I have sympathy for kids that racked up the debt.

 

But I hear what you're saying.  It seems less and less boys these days go to college for this and other reasons imo.  Understanding debt accumulation is one of them.  

 

Edited February 15 by Another Fan

[1ManRaid]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476461/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-legality-of-shooters-weapons/

 

“100 of the mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and December 2023 involved weapons which were obtained legally; a clear majority. Only 16 incidents involved guns that were obtained illegally.”

 

They don't disclose what they consider "obtained legally" to mean.  They also parrot the popular misconception that it's easy to obtain guns through the mythical "gun show loophole".  Private sales can happen depending on the state, but people aren't selling their private collection pieces to gang bangers from the big cities.

 

I've seen "obtained legally" counted as meaning ORIGINALLY obtained legally, as in purchased new from a dealer and not smuggled into the country directly to the black market.  This means guns that were stolen from a legal owner, then get used by whatever gang member does a shooting gets counted as a "legally obtained" gun.  They also count when someone passes a background check they shouldn't have, because screwy policing led to stuff not getting properly logged into their permanent records.

Edited February 15 by 1ManRaid

[Bermuda Triangle]

13 minutes ago, boyst said:

A. it's not a black/white issue. There are multiple levels to the onions

2) Gun violence is a specific problem in some communities not a national problem

iii. Any statistic is only 97.36% accurate on topical face.

 

 

Also, final post here. 12+ hours after the issue. The perps haven't been named, the national story will be dropped in a few days, this will be forgotten quickly because of the narrative being false.

the "national story will be dropped in a few days, this will be forgotten quickly" because we'll have another mass shooting in the next few days.

[Augie]

If somebody changes someone else’s mind in this discussion, it just may be the first time in history on this topic. 

[Gugny]

7 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

They don't disclose what they consider "obtained legally" to mean.  They also parrot the popular misconception that it's easy to obtain guns through the mythical "gun show loophole".  Private sales can happen depending on the state, but people aren't selling their private collection pieces to gang bangers from the big cities.

 

I've seen "obtained legally" counted as meaning ORIGINALLY obtained legally, as in purchased new from a dealer and not smuggled into the country directly to the black market.  This means guns that were stolen from a legal owner, then get used by whatever gang member does a shooting gets counted as a "legally obtained" gun.  They also count when someone passes a background check they shouldn't have, because screwy policing led to stuff not getting properly logged into their permanent records.

With any due respect … this is all crap. 
 

I'm not into wordsmithing or Whataboutism. 
 

Keep telling yourself that guns aren’t the problem.  And keep twisting statistics to back it up. 
 

I’m not interested in participating in either. 

[wnyguy]

8 minutes ago, Gugny said:

With any due respect … this is all crap. 
 

I'm not into wordsmithing or Whataboutism. 
 

Keep telling yourself that guns aren’t the problem.  And keep twisting statistics to back it up. 
 

I’m not interested in participating in either. 

Well, bye.

[Returntoglory]

Here's a photo of one of the "alleged" shooters. Funny how most of the media won't post this photo. 🤔

[Augie]

10 minutes ago, Returntoglory said:

Here's a photo of one of the "alleged" shooters. Funny how most of the media won't post this photo. 🤔

 

 

Umm, I hate to ask, but just what does that mean?

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

Because of the pro gun 2nd Amendment decisions made over the past decades,it no longer matters whether the shooter’s gun is legal or illegal. With an estimated 400 million in circulation, every half sane individual with any agenda about anything/person/institution/cause knows where to get one or three.

 

From his family, from his neighbours, from his friends, from his associates. The resulting massacres are a never ending horror show in America- unstoppable. 
 

A law or laws federally, state wide or municipally are de facto useless. You would need to wind the clock back a half century and make the vast majority of guns unobtainable for the vast majority of people- not called law enforcement, farmers, hunters, gun clubs, etc. 

 

That choice is gone forever in America.

 

This pretty much is spot on.

[strive_for_five_guy]

46 minutes ago, boyst said:

A. it's not a black/white issue. There are multiple levels to the onions

2) Gun violence is a specific problem in some communities not a national problem

iii. Any statistic is only 97.36% accurate on topical face.

 

 

Also, final post here. 12+ hours after the issue. The perps haven't been named, the national story will be dropped in a few days, this will be forgotten quickly because of the narrative being false.

 Appreciate your political perspective.

[Royale with Cheese]

30 minutes ago, Augie said:

If somebody changes someone else’s mind in this discussion, it just may be the first time in history on this topic. 

 

Is this kind of like I used to hate mushrooms but now I love them?