Bills spent the second most in the nfl on defense

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

1 true WR1 in 7 years, at top dollar, that now everyone's complaining about after 4 seasons.  Hope many WRs did they draft on days 1 & 2?  Zero

 

RB?  7 seasons in and we have a decent one.

 

OL?  How many OL drafted after Allen?   How many good ones?  

 

As one of Davis' biggest supporters, that statement is laughable, and he was a 4th, 128th overall.  He never had three skillset to be a #1.  

 

They "felt" a lot of things that never happened.  McD felt that Peterman was good for example.  Nothing could have been further from the truth.  

 

You're reaching.  

 

😏

 

 

If you look at the drafts what were they supposed to do? Who did you want in the 1st 2 rounds? You’d have to go back to before Diggs to find a WR in the 1st 2 rounds. 
 

When they added Diggs they had John Brown coming off a career year, Beasley coming off a career year, and also drafted 2 developmental WRs.

 

Whatever you want to say or think about Davis the Bills were very high on him. He never met their expectations. They believed he had WR1 ability. 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

A very similar argument can be made about OL as well.  

 

Before O'Torrence, late in round 2, the only two OL they drafted prior to the 161st overall were Ford (38th) and Brown (93rd) in the late 3rd 

 

Everyone knows that the two most important things needed for any QB to make maximum use of his skills are OL & WR.

 

That's 101 Basics.  Apparently we struggle with that.  They're finally catching on after nearly a decade.  We'll find out to what extent very soon.  

 

 

Good teams don’t draft a bunch of OG’s high. There’s no reason to draft a bunch of tackles higher than 161 when you are already paying Dawkins big bucks.

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true. Brandon Beane came from Carolina where during his tenure in their front office they didn't value wide receiver in the draft and spent among the lowest capital in the league over a ten year period on it (one 1st, one 2nd and two 3rds in 10 drafts). 

 

When Beane was hired as our general manager I did a breakdown of how the Panthers had drafted and what they have prioritised in free agency during his time there. What I concluded was they were one of the teams that still valued running back higher than the league average trend and they prioritised resources in their defensive front 7. The positions they general under invested early picks in (certainly in relation to the league) were wide receiver and corner. I think those trends have absolutely carried over to here. I know they drafted Elam in the first but he is the only corner Beane has picked in the first three rounds throughout his six drafts which is way below the league average. But in both places defensive line has been the priority over and over again. 

Cam Newton won his MVP because he was throwing to Ted Ginn and Devin Funchess (along with Greg Olsen who was sneaky a top 3 TE at his peak). Those WR’s were notoriously bad.

[st pete gogolak]

In looking at the numbers, it appears that it is more terrible luck than gross mismanagement.  $30 million for White, Miller and Milano.  White signed his contract in his prime when he was one of the very best corners in the league.  Nobody’s complaining about Milano’s contract.  Yes, Miller was a significant gamble but if he didn’t tear his ACL, I doubt anyone is complaining about it.  If all three are 100% healthy, we probably win the SB. But they weren’t and we didn’t.

 

If Greenlaw doesn’t tear his Achilles walking on the field (!), maybe SF beats KC.  Nobody wants to admit it but luck does indeed play a big part in all of this.

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

If you look at the drafts what were they supposed to do? Who did you want in the 1st 2 rounds? You’d have to go back to before Diggs to find a WR in the 1st 2 rounds. 
 

When they added Diggs they had John Brown coming off a career year, Beasley coming off a career year, and also drafted 2 developmental WRs.

 

Whatever you want to say or think about Davis the Bills were very high on him. He never met their expectations. They believed he had WR1 ability. 

 

This doesn't exactly support your original post that I responded to.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

DJ Chark (who has had seasons better than Sherfield’s whole career) signed for less than Harty last offseason.
 

Nico Collins was a third rounder in 2021 (we took Boogie for DE depth in the second that year).

 

Do not tell me there was NO opportunity to shore up the boundary WR position in the last 3 seasons besides Kumerow and Harty/Sherfield. It’s not true.

Dyami Brown, Amari Rogers, and Anthony Schwartz were also 3rd rounders that year.

 

The Harty signing was bad. 

[FireChans]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Dyami Brown, Amari Rogers, and Anthony Schwartz were also 3rd rounders that year.

 

The Harty signing was bad. 

I’d rather have all three of those dudes than Trent Sherfield.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, FireChans said:

I’d rather have all three of those dudes than Trent Sherfield.

Then you’d be complaining about how they can’t draft good WRs.

 

 

[Warcodered]

and right up to the Dolphins and London games it did look like it.

[FireChans]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Then you’d be complaining about how they can’t draft good WRs.

 

 

No, I would say that they have tried to surround Josh with WR talent instead of signing bargain-bin bums. Trying and failing > not trying.
 

I understand that the draft is not a perfect science. That doesn’t mean I can’t critique picks, like Boogie Basham, who imo, had a very low ceiling and I thought the vision was questionable compared to a Greg Rousseau.

 

I also understand that guys like Dyami Brown may have had a different career path with a good QB and not being buried on the depth chart. He’s a fast boundary guy on a team that needed more fast boundary guys. 
 

Nico Collins looked like a nobody until Stroud emerged. 

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Good teams don’t draft a bunch of OG’s high. There’s no reason to draft a bunch of tackles higher than 161 when you are already paying Dawkins big bucks.

 

OK, fine, but what great FA OL did we go out and get?  None until this past season and Morse.

 

Great QBs, in terms of passing at least, need veg good OLs, that's a long-standing fact, and the best QBs in history have had them.  

 

 

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Cam Newton won his MVP because he was throwing to Ted Ginn and Devin Funchess (along with Greg Olsen who was sneaky a top 3 TE at his peak). Those WR’s were notoriously bad.

 

Can Newton posted one (1) above-average season in 11, and against what may have been the easiest schedule of any team in the modern era.  Likely why he only had one above-average season.

 

15 of his 35 passing TDs were against the bad defenses.  Could be why he sucked in the playoffs.  

 

Is Newton our standard now?

 

Pretty low bar.  Just sayin'.  

 

But if your point is that we need one of the easiest schedules in the history of the game to win one, first, that still doesn't address the playoffs situation, second, insofar as the regular season goes, maybe so.  

 

 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, fine, but what great FA OL did we go out and get?  None until this past season and Morse.

 

Great QBs, in terms of passing at least, need veg good OLs, that's a long-standing fact, and the best QBs in history have had them.  

 

 

 

Can Newton posted one (1) above-average season in 11, and against what may have been the easiest schedule of any team in the modern era.  Likely why he only had one above-average season.

 

15 of his 35 passing TDs were against the bad defenses.  Could be why he sucked in the playoffs.  

 

Is Newton our standard now?

 

Pretty low bar.  Just sayin'.  

 

But if your point is that we need one of the easiest schedules in the history of the game to win one, first, that still doesn't address the playoffs situation, second, insofar as the regular season goes, maybe so.  

 

 

Newton is not the standard, I wasn’t making some grand point besides him having bad weapons in Carolina, and him being a one man offense that season is the reason he won MVP and they went to the SB. He also did not suck in the playoffs that year, he had 4 TD’s in the NFCCG. 

 

You have a point IRT FA OL players, but the effort has been there IMO. McGovern was their target this last year and played well enough that there’s not going to be much of an effort to replace him going forward. The year prior they went for Saffold which was a predictable disaster. Daryl Williams prior to that was a high value FA signing that played extremely well his first year here. And you brought up Torrence, Morse and Ford, where they went 2/3. And like I said, they had Dawkins under contract (and Spencer Brown who just had his best year as a pro) so there was no need to make a splash in the OT market. 
 

If Cody Ford wasn’t a gigantic bust, or we had kept Wyatt Teller, the Bills would’ve probably had a top 5ish OL year after year around Allen. Despite some of those moves not above working, I think there has been a clear effort demonstrated to shore up OL over the years. 
 

When you compare the WR group effort to the OL group effort, particularly since 2020, it’s not close imo. WR has clearly lagged behind.

[bigK14094]

16 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

The Chiefs spent 26 million  +-  less than we did, it’s time to use that cap space on offensive weapons, the writing is so clearly on the wall…, 

 

LFG BILLS!!!

Can't in 24.  Gotta pay useless Von Mille $25 to rehab another year.

[ProcessTruster]

17 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

This is more of a "Fire Beane" post. If 1/2 of those picks were more than Jags,we wouldn't keep picking DL nor would we need to have signed Von ( another bad move).  

 

Last year Beane knocked it out of the park, but he really has to do a hell of a lot better job scouting WR, DL and DB's in the draft.

if Von was healthy and had 15 sacks, you'd be calling Beane a genius and savior of the franchise for getting him.  fans are idiots.   injuries matter.  Beane didn't go out and stomp on Milano, Von , Benford and Bernards knees for f's sake, so lets fire Beane bc guys got hurt.  fans are idiots.  

[Bockeye]

Lotta talk about WR’s here. What is absolutely perplexing to me is KC was #1 in dropped passes for the season.  Bills were 8th.  
 

Only thing I can point to is Reid and Mahommes are significantly better than any other combo out there. 

[GunnerBill]

45 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

OK, fine, but what great FA OL did we go out and get?  None until this past season and Morse.

 

 

To be fair they have had some success with lower end FAs on the OL. They got a good season out of Quinton Spain in 2019 before they fell out with him and they got a good season out of Williams at right tackle in 2020 (albeit Covid year wae the easiest year to play OL). Didn't get great value from the contract extensions in either case though. They have taken a lot of shots at OL in FA. They have just not got the right guy often enough. I was never a Feliciano fan and I knew Roger Saffold was a disaster waiting to happen. They have made three day two picks in six drafts which isn't awful. The issue is one of those was Ford who is arguably their biggest bust (though Elam may snag that title from him). 

 

 

[PBF81]

19 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Newton is not the standard, I wasn’t making some grand point besides him having bad weapons in Carolina, and him being a one man offense that season is the reason he won MVP and they went to the SB. He also did not suck in the playoffs that year, he had 4 TD’s in the NFCCG. 

 

Oh, sorry, I thought were were talking about passing since we were talking about WRs and OL in terms of protection.  

 

 

  

 

I'll clarify, passing he sucked.  He had 3 passing TDs in as many playoff games, with a completion % of 58.2, which would have been good for DFL on the season and only marginally better than his season ranked 27th otherwise, and he had a playoff rating of 87.3, which on the season would have also been good for 25th, which would have been just ahead of QBs such as Bradford, Osweiler, Gabbert, and Winston.  

 

Other than a few games against poor defenses, it really wasn't a great passing season for him.  Very overrated.  

 

 

19 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You have a point IRT FA OL players, but the effort has been there IMO. McGovern was their target this last year and played well enough that there’s not going to be much of an effort to replace him going forward. The year prior they went for Saffold which was a predictable disaster. Daryl Williams prior to that was a high value FA signing that played extremely well his first year here. And you brought up Torrence, Morse and Ford, where they went 2/3. And like I said, they had Dawkins under contract (and Spencer Brown who just had his best year as a pro) so there was no need to make a splash in the OT market. 
 

If Cody Ford wasn’t a gigantic bust, or we had kept Wyatt Teller, the Bills would’ve probably had a top 5ish OL year after year around Allen. Despite some of those moves not above working, I think there has been a clear effort demonstrated to shore up OL over the years. 
 

When you compare the WR group effort to the OL group effort, particularly since 2020, it’s not close imo. WR has clearly lagged behind.

 

Well, you nailed the primary point there, that the effort to get WRs has clearly failed.  Never once have we even drafted a WR that was listed as a likely starter much less a bona fide #1.  For as much as I like Davis, on our team with Allen playing the way that Allen can, and given that he's the only one that's ever stepped up in a key playoff game for us, he was always a role-playing deep threat WR that had route-running issues, and still does.  

 

As to the OL, within your response you used some telling words.  Re: Safford, predictable.  Many were high on him here, presumably because McBeane "told them," but you're right, there was never much to be excited about there.  But the same can be said for just about every one of our other 1-2 year signees, many of which came from terrible OLs elsewhere in the league.  I recall pointing it out at the time, but everyone defers to what McBeane says rather than facts that are readily available.  

 

As to Brown just having his best year as a pro, agreed, pretty obvious in fact.  But again, this is their 7th season, and we've had no key offensive injuries.  What are the odds of that happening again.  A good guess would be pretty slim.  

 

We can argue over this in many ways, but what is indisputable is the fact that they've spent way more top draft resources and effort on building a D that keeps choking in the playoffs despite being top-ranked in the regular season.  

 

The question is why?  Gunner hit that nail on the head in one of his earlier posts in this thread on the bottom of page 3, that McD came from Carolina where the focus was on RB on offense and on the F7 on defense.  I have little problem with the focus on the F7 insofar as the D goes, in fact, that was the core strength of our '90s teams defensively.  But when you have Allen, you've gotta do everything possible to try to get the utmost out of him and by implication the offense in general.  We've clearly not done that.  Instead, we seem to have, for seven seasons now, and with this one pending given the state of Diggs, expected Allen via his athleticism to overcome any and all offensive deficiencies.  

 

The question is why this is.  But the implications are clear, namely the one that's crafting this team does not believe in doing that.  That's not in his wheelhouse of understanding and strategy.  

 

It's also a strong, I'd call it unmistakeable, implication that things like "complimentary football" also lend itself to the team revolving around the D first, which is clearly the opposite of doing everything possible to build around Allen.  

 

The topic du jour should be, ... OK, so we've tried that approach now for 7 seasons and it's failed miserably come playoff time.  Are we going to, and if so, when, going to pour a majority of resources around Allen to try it from the offensive perspective?  

 

Also, let's keep in mind that doing that hardly entails having a 30th ranked defense.  McD is good enough in strategizing defensively to get at least an average D, likely much better, with lesser talent.  I simply don't think that the IP exists on this staff to optimize the offense, not even close.  Consider, the top on that food chain is an OJT OC, one of the youngest in the league.  Sure, he'll do OK because he has Allen, but will it be enough to get us over that hump that we all want to get over, and given the current state of our WR corps.  

 

We will find out.  We all have our hunches and opinions.  

 

 

[BBFL]

1 hour ago, st pete gogolak said:

In looking at the numbers, it appears that it is more terrible luck than gross mismanagement.  $30 million for White, Miller and Milano.  White signed his contract in his prime when he was one of the very best corners in the league.  Nobody’s complaining about Milano’s contract.  Yes, Miller was a significant gamble but if he didn’t tear his ACL, I doubt anyone is complaining about it.  If all three are 100% healthy, we probably win the SB. But they weren’t and we didn’t.

 

If Greenlaw doesn’t tear his Achilles walking on the field (!), maybe SF beats KC.  Nobody wants to admit it but luck does indeed play a big part in all of this.

 

Yeah, it’s tough to go against the best without your best or even 2nd best players for any team. Maybe you can get by and overcome missing one of your best but 2 or more from a fielded unit is a hard task. Greenlaw & Hufunga are borderline irreplaceable. Same goes for Tre, Milano, Von, Micah, Poyer and even Bernard this season. Sometimes too much is indeed too much. 
 

Tre with 3 years of serious injuries in a row is tough for him and the team. I know he came back for that 2022 post season but he wasn’t the same and was abused for portions of it. 
 

He’s a stud when healthy and on the field but that’s the biggest question…

[PBF81]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

To be fair they have had some success with lower end FAs on the OL. They got a good season out of Quinton Spain in 2019 before they fell out with him and they got a good season out of Williams at right tackle in 2020 (albeit Covid year wae the easiest year to play OL). Didn't get great value from the contract extensions in either case though. They have taken a lot of shots at OL in FA. They have just not got the right guy often enough. I was never a Feliciano fan and I knew Roger Saffold was a disaster waiting to happen. They have made three day two picks in six drafts which isn't awful. The issue is one of those was Ford who is arguably their biggest bust (though Elam may snag that title from him). 

 

 

 

To be fair, that is fair.  But again, and we can argue over it, they never went out of their way to try to do much more than the absolute minimum.  Filling the offensive holes while leaving the biggest resources for that F7 that you mention in your post at the bottom of page 3.  

 

They may have gotten a few OK seasons out of some of their 1-2 year signees for relatively or even dirt cheap, but that does not negate the approach.  

 

Let's keep in mind that until this season, Allen has not been able to rely upon our OL for a pocket or much consistent protection.  Glad to at last see that we have that, but again, only for another season whereafter contracts come up again.  As well, we had zero OL injuries.  It'd be unwise to expect that to happen again.  

 

Right now, and with Diggs' status pending, our issue is with WR and perhaps more relevantly, how those WRs are used.  Most will disagree, but I'm firmly of the opinion that Diggs' "falling off" has little to do with his age/health.  Again, no need to argue over that, in a popularity discussion I'll lose, but the point is we'll see how our next OJT OC does next season with a good OL, decent RB, and very good (RS at least) F7 that McD seems to favor.  

 

A big part of the differences of us all here seems to be whether "we get there" via offense or via defense.  Those of us thinking offense (aka building around Allen to every extent possible) will be in disagreement with the status quo.  

 

We're never going to have a QB anywhere near as good as Allen, whenever he's gone whether it be in two years or 12 years, so we'd like to see us cross that Jordan on his watch.  IMO he never leaves Buffalo, but the question, obviously, is how long does a QB upon whom we rely upon his running skills to overcome other elements of our game, last as such.  

 

Unrelatedly, insofar as Allen's tenure goes, I'm a little concerned by his love for golf.  It would hardly surprise me at all if he prematurely decides that he'd rather travel the world and play golf 200 times/year than beat himself up more.  

 

 

Edited February 14 by PBF81

[SoonerBillsFan]

39 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

if Von was healthy and had 15 sacks, you'd be calling Beane a genius and savior of the franchise for getting him.  fans are idiots.   injuries matter.  Beane didn't go out and stomp on Milano, Von , Benford and Bernards knees for f's sake, so lets fire Beane bc guys got hurt.  fans are idiots.  

1. You missed everything I said in that post.

 

2. Calling us idiots is a quick way to a time out or off the board.  Trust me I know first hand.

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

To be fair, that is fair.  But again, and we can argue over it, they never went out of their way to try to do much more than the absolute minimum.  Filling the offensive holes while leaving the biggest resources for that F7 that you mention in your post at the bottom of page 3.  

 

They may have gotten a few OK seasons out of some of their 1-2 year signees for relatively or even dirt cheap, but that does not negate the approach.  

 

Let's keep in mind that until this season, Allen has not been able to rely upon our OL for a pocket or much consistent protection.  Glad to at last see that we have that, but again, only for another season whereafter contracts come up again.  As well, we had zero OL injuries.  It'd be unwise to expect that to happen again.  

 

 

Josh has had two good olines in his 6 years IMO - 2020 (again accept there is a covid year caveat) and 2023. The line in 2018 was an abomination (Brandon Beane admitted he did a "terrible job" that year with the line in his end of season presser), the line in 2019 was improved but still below average, 2021 it sucked for 3/4s of the year but played well down the stretch and in the playoffs and 2022 it just sucked all year. 

 

I kind of think offensive line is a spot where you are always going to need to fill a hole or two for cheap. I don't think when you are paying a QB you can also pay five studs up front. They missed big on Cody Ford, that hurt, they took a bit of a project in Brown who has just had his best year but after we lived through considerable growing pains in years 1 and 2. I think there is some truth to the idea that it hasn't been the top priority, that's fair, but I think their mixed performance on the offensive line is a combination of factors that includes resource allocation but also includes bad talent evaluations, injuries and development issues too (plus coaching actually.... wasn't a fan of Castillo or Bobby Johnson). 

 

So I'm not giving them a pass on resource allocation on the oline but I think it is more a combination of factors distinct from wide receiver where to me it is purely they simply haven't allocated enough premium resource to the spot.