Get excited... change is NOW with a youth wave!!!

[BillsFanForever19]

14 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

Not trying to get all up in you guys conversation, but just wanted to say Benford is emerging as the best corner imo. Of course you can't leave out T. Johnson either

 

Benford is growing with every season. He's the present and future of the Outside CB position on our team. The idea that you move him or Douglas to the bench for Tre at this point is insanity to me. As is giving up a 3rd for Douglas and letting him go in favor of Tre, who won't even be ready to start the season.

 

It's a painful decision, but with Tre having an out in his contract this season, the personnel we have, and the situation we're in cap and roster wise - I don't know how you don't do an injury settlement and keep him around. The kind of restructure we can do would still be greatly overpaying for the role he'd have and the kind of question mark he is.

 

With Douglas, Benford, Johnson, and Elam - we're good at the top 4 CB spots. But we need massive help elsewhere. And Tre's out in the contract is this offseason. Short of him taking like a paycut of like 75% (which I don't see him wanting to do), it doesn't make sense to me.

 

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Hoping we bring back guys like Kingsley Jonathan
 

Always over performs will be on a good contract and we need that kind of youth movement

 

He'll be here. He's still under contract. Him, Groot, Von, and Cline are all we have there right now.

Edited February 7 by BillsFanForever19

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Everything I've read everywhere does not ascertain your statement that we'd save money cutting him this offseason. I've not found one article or post that says we'd be better off doing it this year.

 

With how he performed last year and our cap situation this year, if it were really as simple as cut him and save 6.7m with no other ramifications, everyone would say do it.

 

No one does. Just you and some other fans on the board. I'll go with the actual experts, who are trying to find any possible way to save anything and never list cutting Von. I don't think it's as simple as you and others are making it out to be. Or else it would be a no brainer.

 

EDIT: Okay, i've found something. And again, it doesn't support your idea that it's a good call to cut him now, explaining why no one recommends doing it.

 

Overthecap says Post 6/1 2024 - 17m in Dead Cap, 6.7 in cap savings.

 

Post 6/1 2025 - 6.37m in Dead Cap, 17.5 in cap savings

 

That's why you don't do it this year. You're paying 17m in Dead Cap for 6.7 in savings wherein next year, you're paying just 6.37 for 17.5 in savings.

 

In the long run, you're essentially paying 11m to cut him now and create another hole.

 

You are misunderstanding what you are reading I am afraid. 

 

You do not save any additional money cutting him next year to cutting him this year. The 17.5 "savings" in 2025 is money we are not on the hook for. That is his unguaranteed 2025 salary. Cut him this year or cut him next year we are not on the hook for that. 

 

The money we are on the hook for is 32m:

 

17m of that in 2024 - his guaranteed chunk of 2024 salary

15m thereafter - 7.2m of his original signing bonus and 7.8m of his restructure bonus (all of that money is long since paid in cash terms and there is no way to avoid accounting for it in cap terms). 

 

There is no way of saving ANY of that money. 

 

If he stays this year you have to pay him an extra 6.7m. If you cut him we don't. 

 

If you cut him this year all of the 15m thereafter accelrates onto the 2025 cap. If we keep him this year and cut him as a post 1 June next year then that 15m is accounted for over two year - 6m in 2025 and 9m in 2026. 

 

The 17.5m we save in 2025 is unguaranteed salary and roster bonus. We save that either way. 

6 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Your last point, I think is the primary issue.  $15m next year would be a HUGE hit. 

 

I think we get better "value" keeping him this year, vs a replacement at $6.7m.  And as mentioned, more importantly we can spread $15m dead cap over 2 years.

 

People forget we signed Floyd for $7-8m against the cap (forget exact #), but built in a deap cap for this year.  Beane isn't going to double up the problem by cutting Von and doing a similar Floyd signing.  

 

Better alternative is doing a Floyd type signing and keep Von.  Financially we can do that

 

But that is only better if you get some production from Von. I just don't believe we will. 

4 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Not even close? This is just factually wrong. We got the exact comparison you're making just last season. Tre White was at least at 80% last season. And that best game you talk about? It wasn't better than Douglas' best game. The games that weren't that game, he wasn't playing at the level that Douglas was for us prior to going down in Miami.

 

He didn't fully return to form with any sort of consistency before the Achilles injury. And now he'll be coming back from that too. He's a complete question mark at this point. There's no saying he'll even be 80% of what he was. It's incorrect to say that he was better than Douglas last year and insane to say he definitively will be when he returns.

 

See this is just wrong. The best game any corner on the Bills played last year was Tre vs Miami. Sure he didn't have the splashy picks Douglas had vs the Patriots. But he was lock down in that game against quality opponents.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

See this is just wrong. The best game any corner on the Bills played last year was Tre vs Miami. Sure he didn't have the splashy picks Douglas had vs the Patriots. But he was lock down in that game against quality opponents.

 

It's a subjective take.   Turnovers are massive and change games and seasons.   Realistically,  White can't actually cover Hill or Waddle so system/plan and pass rush were the biggest keys to his success that day.   If you'd have told me Greg Rousseau would end up with 15 sacks after that day too I'd have believed you.    It was the "everything came together" game of the season for the Bills defensively.

 

But also Douglas game isn't all "splash".   He's more rugged/physical, durable(obviously) and likely more versatile than White at this point and is an active locker room leader(White is more a "by example" type).    

 

The most compelling part of the arguments against keeping White though are the relative depth of the room and ease of finding starting quality DB fits in this defense thru later picks.    

 

And this is all assuming that the achilles injury doesn't totally finish him off as a cover man.   Not a lot of good examples of older CB's bouncing back well from this.   Recently, Nik Needham was a nifty slot guy until he tore his in 2022 and it took him 12 months to get back and then he was ineffective the rest of the 2023 season.    With that injury at White's high mileage I think you kinda' have to ASSUME he's not going to be right next year, if ever.    The fact that his sorta' full recovery from ACL tear turned into a two offseason affair doesn't bode well for this rehab.

[transplantbillsfan]

I really don't know why we're still talking about cutting Von as a viable option or even a good one.

 

Here's Greg Tompsett on the idea of cutting Von.  Go to 5:45

"Unfortunately, we have to hope that (he contributes next year like he did against KC) because there's still $32m that we haven't accounted for that we've paid Von Miller.  He's going to count for that money whether he's on the team or not, so releasing him--whether you do that before June 1st or after June 1st--we've still gotta make up that $32m.  So, some people will try to put it as "Oh! If we do it after June 1st, we save money!"  Well, no... you just kicked $15m out of the $32m we owe into the 2025 and make next year even worse."

18 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Everything I've read everywhere does not ascertain your statement that we'd save money cutting him this offseason. I've not found one article or post that says we'd be better off doing it this year.

 

With how he performed last year and our cap situation this year, if it were really as simple as cut him and save 6.7m with no other ramifications, everyone would say do it.

 

No one does. Just you and some other fans on the board. I'll go with the actual experts, who are trying to find any possible way to save anything and never list cutting Von. I don't think it's as simple as you and others are making it out to be. Or else it would be a no brainer.

 

EDIT: Okay, i've found something. And again, it doesn't support your idea that it's a good call to cut him now, explaining why no one recommends doing it.

 

Overthecap says Post 6/1 2024 - 17m in Dead Cap, 6.7 in cap savings.

 

Post 6/1 2025 - 6.37m in Dead Cap, 17.5 in cap savings

 

That's why you don't do it this year. You're paying 17m in Dead Cap for 6.7 in savings wherein next year, you're paying just 6.37 for 17.5 in savings.

 

In the long run, you're essentially paying 11m to cut him now and create another hole.

 

Also factor in the CAP money that will be pushed into 2025 if we were to cut him post June 1st 2024.

16 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Hoping we bring back guys like Kingsley Jonathan
 

Always over performs will be on a good contract and we need that kind of youth movement

 

He's still under contract

[DrMaxPower]

I don't really watch college football and am not much of draft 'guru' so looking for some feedback from those that are;

 

I read that NIL and the transfer portal has massively reduced the number of underclassmen in the draft. There are only 58 this year, less than half of what has been typical recently and the lowest in over a decade.

 

How badly has this hit the depth of the draft? Is this a deep class regardless?

 

Everyone is excited about the number of picks we have but most are so late. Are we going to be picking guys in rounds 5/6/7 that would be UDFA's in prior years? I'm a little concerned that we won't be able to plug as many roster holes as we'd like.

Edited February 7 by DrMaxPower

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I really don't know why we're still talking about cutting Von as a viable option or even a good one.

 

Here's Greg Tompsett on the idea of cutting Von.  Go to 5:45

"Unfortunately, we have to hope that (he contributes next year like he did against KC) because there's still $32m that we haven't accounted for that we've paid Von Miller.  He's going to count for that money whether he's on the team or not, so releasing him--whether you do that before June 1st or after June 1st--we've still gotta make up that $32m.  So, some people will try to put it as "Oh! If we do it after June 1st, we save money!"  Well, no... you just kicked $15m out of the $32m we owe into the 2025 and make next year even worse."

 

Also factor in the CAP money that will be pushed into 2025 if we were to cut him post June 1st 2024.

 

He's still under contract

 

I'm not a capologist. A lot of it is pretty confusing to me.

 

All I know for sure is that everyone who has analyzed the situation and has looked at any potential way to save money anywhere says it's a no go for this season and we'd have to wait until 2025 if we want to move on.

 

But according to some on this board, everyone else is wrong but them, there's no reason not to do it, and it's impossible that Von could be better with a full offseason of rehab, prep, and a Training Camp - while acknowledging Tre White needed the same thing himself.

 

I'm done trying to defend the experts. They can believe what they want to believe. It's not going to change the fact that he's not going anywhere, whether they like it or hate it.

[BillsFanForever19]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The most compelling part of the arguments against keeping White though are the relative depth of the room and ease of finding starting quality DB fits in this defense thru later picks.    

 

Exactly this.

 

If Von's out were this year, Tre's was next year, we were thin at CB, and in good shape at DE - i'd be saying keep Tre and ditch Von. But that's not the case.

 

Tre's out is this year. Von's is next year. We spent a 3rd on Douglas, who exceeded expectations. I don't think we gave up a 3rd for just half a season. It doesn't make sense to make either he or Benford (who is the future, developing VERY well, and you don't want to mess with that) the 3rd CB off the bench. Nor does it make sense to pay Tre, even in a restructure, what he'd be paid to be Outside CB3. We already have a 1st Round Pick in that role. And we need money anywhere we can get it.

 

The argument that Von should be let go on in a vacuum, based on how he performed last season, is a fair one. But outside of that vacuum, there are other factors that make that something we shouldn't do - until next year.

 

I think logically, Tre being cut on an injury settlement is a no brainer. Albeit an emotional one. But in the position we're in, we can't afford to let emotions dictate things.

Edited February 7 by BillsFanForever19

[oldmanfan]

Beane talked about getting more explosive guys.  Should be interesting to see who he brings in.

[Beck Water]

Just a point on the 'youth wave'

 

Captains last season:

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/bills-select-eight-players-as-the-2023-captains

Gabe Davis

Stefon Diggs

Josh Allen

Jordan Poyer

Micah Hyde

Von Miller

Tyler Matakevich

Mitch Morse

 

Of those 8, Josh Allen and the under-performing, over-paid Diggs and Miller are the only three fairly certain to be back (the latter 2 due to excessive dead cap)

I would like to see Morse back, but he has an $11.5M cap hit with $3M of dead money and will be 32.  He has a $1M roster bonus due 3/17.

I would like to see Poyer back, but he has a $7.6M cap hit with $2M of dead money and will be 33.

 

Davis, Hyde, and Matakevich are all pending free agents and likely to be gone.

[Nextmanup]

On 2/5/2024 at 2:26 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

I'm gonna be honest... it took me some time to get over our season.

 

I'm good now.

 

Now I'm excited not just for next season, but our future.

 

First of all, Buffalo has the 2nd youngest OC/DC combo in the NFL. Players advocate for these guys who have plenty of juice, so let em shake us all season long! 

 

Second, and most important, a lot of people are worried about our CAP while ignoring the 10 draft picks plus 9 future reserves we have in the waiting. Combine those with young stars already on the team like Bernard, Kincaid, Shakir, Brown, Benford & Rousseau and this team is about to get a lot younger as guys like Hyde, Poyer, Miller and Diggs exit in the next 2 or 3 years.

 

To me, the future looks bright. Our most important player is about to become the veteran presence as everyone else around him gets younger. And it's by necessity because of our CAP situation.

 

But don't be afraid of that... the Bills since McBeane have been in place have maintained one of the oldest rosters in the NFL. Always low to mid 20s, as far as ranking in the NFL... not as far as age.  That means we've always been one of the 10 oldest teams in the NFL. 

 

Now we inject youth. This offseason it's inevitably going to come in the WR corps & DL especially, but it'll shift across positions moving forward.

 

And we'll have a young OC & DC with a lot of juice to connect with them and a hypercompetitive QB with a handshake for everyone and Richard jokes to get them playing for him

 

This team is actually going through some drastic changes this offseason... it has me excited!!!

As long as McDimwit is your head coach, your optimism should be limited.

 

Nothing changes next year with McD in charge.

 

Don't take my word for it!  Just wait and watch!

 

 

[McBean]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:26 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

I'm gonna be honest... it took me some time to get over our season.

 

I'm good now.

 

Now I'm excited not just for next season, but our future.

 

First of all, Buffalo has the 2nd youngest OC/DC combo in the NFL. Players advocate for these guys who have plenty of juice, so let em shake us all season long! 

 

Second, and most important, a lot of people are worried about our CAP while ignoring the 10 draft picks plus 9 future reserves we have in the waiting. Combine those with young stars already on the team like Bernard, Kincaid, Shakir, Brown, Benford & Rousseau and this team is about to get a lot younger as guys like Hyde, Poyer, Miller and Diggs exit in the next 2 or 3 years.

 

To me, the future looks bright. Our most important player is about to become the veteran presence as everyone else around him gets younger. And it's by necessity because of our CAP situation.

 

But don't be afraid of that... the Bills since McBeane have been in place have maintained one of the oldest rosters in the NFL. Always low to mid 20s, as far as ranking in the NFL... not as far as age.  That means we've always been one of the 10 oldest teams in the NFL. 

 

Now we inject youth. This offseason it's inevitably going to come in the WR corps & DL especially, but it'll shift across positions moving forward.

 

And we'll have a young OC & DC with a lot of juice to connect with them and a hypercompetitive QB with a handshake for everyone and Richard jokes to get them playing for him

 

This team is actually going through some drastic changes this offseason... it has me excited!!!

Get excited under this regime?

 

lol

23 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

As long as McDimwit is your head coach, your optimism should be limited.

 

Nothing changes next year with McD in charge.

 

Don't take my word for it!  Just wait and watch!

 

 

Spot. On.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

I think logically, Tre being cut on an injury settlement is a no brainer. Albeit an emotional one. But in the position we're in, we can't afford to let emotions dictate things.

 

The Bills may release Tre'.  But this is not a situation the concept of an NFL "Injury settlement" applies to.

 

An "injury settlement" is when a young player, typically with a "split" (a different salary if he is injured vs not injured) is placed on IR during the season, but feels he has the ability to play that season and would like to try to catch on with another team.  The team he is signed to and his agents negotiate the expected recovery time for his injury (let's say it's a high ankle sprain, and they agree on an 8 week recovery period.  The player is released with 8 weeks of his IR salary (plus medical care and rehab), and can sign with any other team as soon as he's cleared to play.

[Billl]

23 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Hoping we bring back guys like Kingsley Jonathan
 

Always over performs will be on a good contract and we need that kind of youth movement

He’ll be 26 in April and has 10 combined tackles in his 2 year career.  How has he built such a fan base?

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Billl said:

He’ll be 26 in April and has 10 combined tackles in his 2 year career.  How has he built such a fan base?

Because every time he got onto the field, he made a play
 

Just didn’t get enough playing time

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Because every time he got onto the field, he made a play
 

Just didn’t get enough playing time

If he was making plays … then they should have given him more playing time … particularly at the end of the season when the other DEs went missing 

 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Aussie Joe said:

If he was making plays … then they should have given him more playing time … particularly at the end of the season when the other DEs went missing 

 

My opinion on this is if we didn’t have Von Miller that’s exactly what would’ve happened, but they kept giving Von Miller chances to round back into form
 

But we’re going into kind of a new era for the Buffalo Bills where they’re going to have to start playing players that don’t make as much money where that be draft picks or veterans that they have been bringing along. Hopefully Kingsley Jonathan is in that mix.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

He’ll be 26 in April and has 10 combined tackles in his 2 year career.  How has he built such a fan base?

 

He is explosive so he flashes. Looks like he is shot out of a cannon at times in his get off. He definitely has ability. 

 

But he is still making mistakes when he is out there too and it has limited his play time. 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I really don't know why we're still talking about cutting Von as a viable option or even a good one.

 

Here's Greg Tompsett on the idea of cutting Von.  Go to 5:45

"Unfortunately, we have to hope that (he contributes next year like he did against KC) because there's still $32m that we haven't accounted for that we've paid Von Miller.  He's going to count for that money whether he's on the team or not, so releasing him--whether you do that before June 1st or after June 1st--we've still gotta make up that $32m.  So, some people will try to put it as "Oh! If we do it after June 1st, we save money!"  Well, no... you just kicked $15m out of the $32m we owe into the 2025 and make next year even worse."

 

 

With respect to Greg you don't "kick $15m out of the $32m we owe into 2025." 

 

$6m of that money is in 2025 even if we cut him as a post June 1 cut NEXT year which almost everyone presumes is the plan. So really what you do is accelerate (I prefer that term to kick in these circumstances - kick to me means move out in time whereas here we would be moving money forward) an additional $9m onto the 2025 cap which would otherwise (with a post 1 June next year cut) be on the cap in 2026. 

 

Again my point here is that 32m is 32m whichever way round you go. You can't get out of a penny of that money by cutting him now or cutting him later. This year's 17m is guaranteed and the 15m after that is long since paid in cash terms. So do you want to spend ANOTHER $6.7m on Von or not? Personally I think he is done, so no.

[transplantbillsfan]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

With respect to Greg you don't "kick $15m out of the $32m we owe into 2025." 

 

$6m of that money is in 2025 even if we cut him as a post June 1 cut NEXT year which almost everyone presumes is the plan. So really what you do is accelerate (I prefer that term to kick in these circumstances - kick to me means move out in time whereas here we would be moving money forward) an additional $9m onto the 2025 cap which would otherwise (with a post 1 June next year cut) be on the cap in 2026. 

 

Again my point here is that 32m is 32m whichever way round you go. You can't get out of a penny of that money by cutting him now or cutting him later. This year's 17m is guaranteed and the 15m after that is long since paid in cash terms. So do you want to spend ANOTHER $6.7m on Von or not? Personally I think he is done, so no.

 

Yes. You spend another $6.7m on Von.

 

I understand your position and wildly disagree with it. There's an objective age cut in your brain that Von just doesn't make.

 

There's absolutely no arguing against that because we didn't see a fully healthy Von really at all this year. Tre was a shell of himself when he came back in 2022 after an ACL tear in 2021. He looked much better this season.

 

I (and others) am saying Von deserves some latitude when it comes to his performance this year because of his injury.

 

You're saying he reached X age so he's shot and that's it. That's literally what you're arguing.

 

I think that argument is ridiculous. I could point to Reggie White, Bruce Smith, or even Michael Strahan who all had good to great seasons at an age older than what Von will be this season.

 

You'll say different era.

 

This is a stupid argument.

 

Von will be on the team. You've sure made your position clear... you'll either be right or wrong. But talking about a simple age cutoff as the strict and sole reason he won't belong on an NFL field next season is a stupid conversation because there's no proof of it other than screaming from the mountaintop that he's shot as you've been doing throughout this entire thread, which ironically wasn't about Von.

[GunnerBill]

50 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Yes. You spend another $6.7m on Von.

 

I understand your position and wildly disagree with it. There's an objective age cut in your brain that Von just doesn't make.

 

There's absolutely no arguing against that because we didn't see a fully healthy Von really at all this year. Tre was a shell of himself when he came back in 2022 after an ACL tear in 2021. He looked much better this season.

 

I (and others) am saying Von deserves some latitude when it comes to his performance this year because of his injury.

 

You're saying he reached X age so he's shot and that's it. That's literally what you're arguing.

 

I think that argument is ridiculous. I could point to Reggie White, Bruce Smith, or even Michael Strahan who all had good to great seasons at an age older than what Von will be this season.

 

You'll say different era.

 

This is a stupid argument.

 

Von will be on the team. You've sure made your position clear... you'll either be right or wrong. But talking about a simple age cutoff as the strict and sole reason he won't belong on an NFL field next season is a stupid conversation because there's no proof of it other than screaming from the mountaintop that he's shot as you've been doing throughout this entire thread, which ironically wasn't about Von.

 

It is not just age. It is more watching him this past year. Because I wasn't saying coming into the season Von is toast. When you combine how he looks with the fact he is about to turn 35 I think the chances of an offseason being the cure are extremely low.