State of the DL (and pass rush)

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, noacls said:

Did they have any in playoffs?

 They were out Coached perhaps ?

4 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

This is an excellent opportunity for the Bills to change there philosophy with the DLine. Mcd needs to scrap his heavy rotation because we can't afford it. Paying bkups 6-7 mil per season is not a good recipe for success for the Dline or for the salary cap. U can't continue to use high pks and millions of dollars of cap space for part time players.

 

Obviously u have to have a rotation but there should be a clear totem pole with the starters playing 65-75% of the snaps and bkups coming in to spell them at the 35-25% of the time. Mcd system has not been that type of rotation it's more of a 50/50 split. I believe Oliver played the most last season and he was at around 60% of snaps. If u look at the best teams or most teams in general they don't rotate the way the Bills do. 

it seems to be a method that is indulgent financially, at least to me. Even though I like the concept

If it won Bills playoff games I would not question it.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

This is an excellent opportunity for the Bills to change there philosophy with the DLine. Mcd needs to scrap his heavy rotation because we can't afford it. Paying bkups 6-7 mil per season is not a good recipe for success for the Dline or for the salary cap. U can't continue to use high pks and millions of dollars of cap space for part time players.

 

Obviously u have to have a rotation but there should be a clear totem pole with the starters playing 65-75% of the snaps and bkups coming in to spell them at the 35-25% of the time. Mcd system has not been that type of rotation it's more of a 50/50 split. I believe Oliver played the most last season and he was at around 60% of snaps. If u look at the best teams or most teams in general they don't rotate the way the Bills do. 

 

Ed was 70%. Groot was 60%. The rest was a heavy rotation although injuries obviously played a part in that. 

 

As for what the "best teams" do it varies heavily team to team. The Chiefs have 3 guys - Danna, Karlaftis and Jones all at 68 or 69%. Pretty consistent with just the 4th spot a lot more rotated. 

 

The 49ers have Bosa at 75%, Hargrave at 57% and nobody else over 50%. Heavy rotation. 

 

The Eagles last year had Cox and Hargrave in the mid 60s and then heavy rotation after that.

 

I don't think there is a right or wrong on heavy rotation as long as you have a couple of constants. But I DO think the Bills have to be better at finding cheap contributors up there. You can't have only 1st and 2nd round picks plus guys you have paid good money to. They need to find a day 3 guy who can be part of that rotation. 

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ed was 70%. Groot was 60%. The rest was a heavy rotation although injuries obviously played a part in that. 

 

As for what the "best teams" do it varies heavily team to team. The Chiefs have 3 guys - Danna, Karlaftis and Jones all at 68 or 69%. Pretty consistent with just the 4th spot a lot more rotated. 

 

The 49ers have Bosa at 75%, Hargrave at 57% and nobody else over 50%. Heavy rotation. 

 

The Eagles last year had Cox and Hargrave in the mid 60s and then heavy rotation after that.

 

I don't think there is a right or wrong on heavy rotation as long as you have a couple of constants. But I DO think the Bills have to be better at finding cheap contributors up there. You can't have only 1st and 2nd round picks plus guys you have paid good money to. They need to find a day 3 guy who can be part of that rotation. 

Maybe its the LBs   😋 

 

see bolded

Edited February 3 by 3rdand12

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Daquon if the money works.

All the rest can go. 

None of them are worth keeping.

If they bring back Daquon then you have the starting 4. All you need is 5 backups two of which can come from the draft, one will be Joseph, and 2 new bargain free agents. 

[Pete]

21 hours ago, noacls said:

Did they have any in playoffs?

We had 55 sacks last year with multiple huge injuries on the D.

 

Floyd, AJ, Joseph, Jones, Settle, and Phillips are all free agents now.

 

We are $50 million over the cap, and we need to field a 53 man roster, and replenish 6+ DL

 

What is your plan for DL in 2024?

 

I think Beane has done a fantastic job putting together a great roster, top to botttom.

 

The fact is, our D stopped KC the last 3 drives of the game.  3 chances the Bills offense had a chance to score 3 points ,and the Bills offense failed 3 times.

 

 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ed was 70%. Groot was 60%. The rest was a heavy rotation although injuries obviously played a part in that. 

 

As for what the "best teams" do it varies heavily team to team. The Chiefs have 3 guys - Danna, Karlaftis and Jones all at 68 or 69%. Pretty consistent with just the 4th spot a lot more rotated. 

 

The 49ers have Bosa at 75%, Hargrave at 57% and nobody else over 50%. Heavy rotation. 

 

The Eagles last year had Cox and Hargrave in the mid 60s and then heavy rotation after that.

 

I don't think there is a right or wrong on heavy rotation as long as you have a couple of constants. But I DO think the Bills have to be better at finding cheap contributors up there. You can't have only 1st and 2nd round picks plus guys you have paid good money to. They need to find a day 3 guy who can be part of that rotation. 

But we do fall short of other rotations across the league as far as percentages go . Then the assett management is where we both definitely agree can't put all that money and picks on rotation players. There needs to be some cheap talent some late picks in the mix. Pay your top guys but otherwise go cheap. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

20 hours ago, SCBills said:

We return:

 

DT: Oliver

 

EDGE: Von, Rousseau, Jonathan

 

Id bring back Shaq Lawson for the vet minimum. 
 

Jones & Epenesa at the right price.  If they get a decent contract offer elsewhere, let them walk. 
 

Floyd was good for 3/4ths of the regular season but faded at the end.   He bridged the regular season gap while Von worked his way back from injury, but didn’t show in the playoffs.  
 

Make sure Allen has everything he needs to be a juggernaut of an offense, which shouldn’t be difficult given we return our OL, TE’s, Diggs, Shakir and Cook.  Just get him WR help and then figure out the Defense.  
 

The strength of this Defense should center around our two stud linebackers next year.  Have to hope Rousseau steps up in a contract year and Von regains 80% of his prior ACL self.

 

If we don’t re-sign Jones, I could see DT at 28.. and while we better get help for Allen.. someone like T’Vondre Sweat next to Ed Oliver could transform the DL for years. 

I like Sweat but u don't use a high picks in the draft on run stuffing 2 down players. He's not a Ngata type. DJ Reader is a free agent and he won't break the bank go sign him instead.

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

But we do fall short of other rotations across the league as far as percentages go . Then the assett management is where we both definitely agree can't put all that money and picks on rotation players. There needs to be some cheap talent some late picks in the mix. Pay your top guys but otherwise go cheap. 

 

I think we would probably be somewhere in the top 3rd rotation wise. But I think you'd find a lot of good teams in that area too. I just looked at the Ravens as well. Madubuike is at 65%. Two guys mid 50s everyone else below. The good teams generally have depth up there and are heavy rotations. The teams who rotate least tend to be that way because they lack good backups and it makes them vulnerable at the end of games because their pass rushers are gassed. 

 

The main question is can the Bills build that depth cheaper than they have thus far. The Von contract obviously hurst. So the likely answer for next year is - no. But from 2025 and beyond they need to look at how they stock that unit. They probably are due another early pick on the DL (they haven't made one in the past two drafts) but then they have to be cleverer on the vet market.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I like Sweat but u don't use a high picks in the draft on run stuffing 2 down players. He's not a Ngata type. DJ Reader is a free agent and he won't break the bank go sign him instead.

 

Man I wanted them to draft Reader so bad that year. The view at the time was DT was not a need but he was pretty much a certain long term starter for a day 3 pick. Ugh. Spotrac has him making upwards of $14m AAV based on the Dalvin Tomlinson contract (which I am certain will be a starting point for his agents) so I think he probably is beyond us now. If he doesn't get what he wants in the first wave and is a dust settles guy I could see it but I suspect he will get a good contract.

 

On Sweat I think he is more than just a two down run stuffer. I know his sack production in college isn't fantastic but on tape he wins a lot of his pass rush reps. If he was there at the end of the 2nd I'd strongly consider him. He won't be though. And he definitely isn't worth a round 1 pick. I think he will go somewhere in the top half of the second round. He has enough pass rushing ability to justify a 2nd round pick I think.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Man I wanted them to draft Reader so bad that year. The view at the time was DT was not a need but he was pretty much a certain long term starter for a day 3 pick. Ugh. Spotrac has him making upwards of $14m AAV based on the Dalvin Tomlinson contract (which I am certain will be a starting point for his agents) so I think he probably is beyond us now. If he doesn't get what he wants in the first wave and is a dust settles guy I could see it but I suspect he will get a good contract.

 

On Sweat I think he is more than just a two down run stuffer. I know his sack production in college isn't fantastic but on tape he wins a lot of his pass rush reps. If he was there at the end of the 2nd I'd strongly consider him. He won't be though. And he definitely isn't worth a round 1 pick. I think he will go somewhere in the top half of the second round. He has enough pass rushing ability to justify a 2nd round pick I think.

I loved Reader as well that yr. I agree Sweat will go in the 2nd Rd. 

Just now, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I loved Reader as well that yr. 

 

Edited February 4 by NastyNateSoldiers

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I loved Reader as well that yr. I agree Sweat will go in the 2nd Rd. 

 

 

 

Beane tried to get Reader in free agency but he chose Cinci.  

 

Denico Autry is another guy they tried to get in UFA but failed.  

 

If TN decides they want to get younger there I could see the Bills pursuing Autry in UFA again because he could give them a combination DE/3T.

 

I'd think the cap healthy Titans would retain him coming off an 11.5 sack season but at age 34 sometimes teams turn their back on those guys.

 

[The Jokeman]

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Beane tried to get Reader in free agency but he chose Cinci.  

 

Denico Autry is another guy they tried to get in UFA but failed.  

 

If TN decides they want to get younger there I could see the Bills pursuing Autry in UFA again because he could give them a combination DE/3T.

 

I'd think the cap healthy Titans would retain him coming off an 11.5 sack season but at age 34 sometimes teams turn their back on those guys.

 

I've heard some mention we get another former Titan, Bud Dupree to play on the edge.