Gugny Posted Saturday at 12:37 AM Posted Saturday at 12:37 AM 6 hours ago, Another Fan said: @ExWNYer@Gugny@SinceThe70s happy belated New Year. Any thoughts on Billy Wagner making the Hall of Fame? To me Johnny Franco seems just as or if not more deserving I think they are both deserving and definitely thing Franco is more deserving. Doesn’t even require thought, IMO.
ExWNYer Posted Saturday at 08:42 PM Posted Saturday at 08:42 PM On 1/24/2025 at 1:07 PM, Another Fan said: @ExWNYer@Gugny@SinceThe70s happy belated New Year. Any thoughts on Billy Wagner making the Hall of Fame? To me Johnny Franco seems just as or if not more deserving @Gugny @SinceThe70s Wagner definitely deserved to be elected. It was long overdue, IMO. It's a shame that they made him wait until his very last year of eligibility, but better late than never.
SinceThe70s Posted Saturday at 11:53 PM Posted Saturday at 11:53 PM 23 hours ago, Gugny said: I think they are both deserving and definitely thing Franco is more deserving. Doesn’t even require thought, IMO. 3 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @SinceThe70s Wagner definitely deserved to be elected. It was long overdue, IMO. It's a shame that they made him wait until his very last year of eligibility, but better late than never. I've said it before, I'm a tough grader when it comes to the HOF. I wouldn't put Wagner in and definitely not Franco. The fact that it took 10 years for Wagner to get in speaks volumes to me. Great player, just not a HOFer in my eyes. 1
Gugny Posted Sunday at 12:04 AM Posted Sunday at 12:04 AM 10 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said: I've said it before, I'm a tough grader when it comes to the HOF. I wouldn't put Wagner in and definitely not Franco. The fact that it took 10 years for Wagner to get in speaks volumes to me. Great player, just not a HOFer in my eyes. I think what Franco did as a lefty should have gotten him in.
SinceThe70s Posted Sunday at 12:15 AM Posted Sunday at 12:15 AM 1 minute ago, Gugny said: I think what Franco did as a lefty should have gotten him in. To me he was a compiler and never a truly dominant player. I want Hall of Famers to be iconic, no-doubters. It's subjective and fun to debate. Years ago there was a poster who was very knowledgeable about baseball who mocked me when I said I thought Yadier Molina would be a HOFer. Different strokes for different folks. The real tragedy to me is that I've never been to Cooperstown. Incomprehensible.
ExWNYer Posted Sunday at 02:54 AM Posted Sunday at 02:54 AM 2 hours ago, SinceThe70s said: I've said it before, I'm a tough grader when it comes to the HOF. I wouldn't put Wagner in and definitely not Franco. The fact that it took 10 years for Wagner to get in speaks volumes to me. Great player, just not a HOFer in my eyes. @Gugny @Another Fan Sorry, I completely respect your opinions but we're going to agree to disagree on this one. He absolutely belongs. 1) He struck out a third of all batters he faced which is the highest strikeout rate of any pitcher with at least 900 innings. There have been 1,173 pitchers who have thrown 900 innings in the Live Ball Era (since 1920). He ranks: - First in batting average allowed (.187; Nolan Ryan is second and Sandy Koufax third). - First in strikeout percentage (33.2%; Jacob deGrom is second). - Second in WHIP (0.994; deGrom is first). - Second in OBP allowed (.262; deGrom is first). - Second in OPS allowed (.558; Mariano Rivera is first). - Third in lowest slugging (.296; Rivera is first and J.R. Richard second). 2) He allowed hits and baserunners less often than most pitchers. He was historically difficult to hit and also did it in the highest leverage situations until the end of his career. 3) His 2.31 ERA and 0.994 WHIP are the best for a southpaw in the Live Ball Era. 4) He was a seven-time All-Star. It took him 10 years because, among other things, his career innings total is the lowest among Hall of Fame relievers, he faced more competition from other closers with 600-plus saves, like Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and he wasn't great in the post-season. 1
Gugny Posted Sunday at 01:40 PM Posted Sunday at 01:40 PM 10 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @Another Fan Sorry, I completely respect your opinions but we're going to agree to disagree on this one. He absolutely belongs. 1) He struck out a third of all batters he faced which is the highest strikeout rate of any pitcher with at least 900 innings. There have been 1,173 pitchers who have thrown 900 innings in the Live Ball Era (since 1920). He ranks: - First in batting average allowed (.187; Nolan Ryan is second and Sandy Koufax third). - First in strikeout percentage (33.2%; Jacob deGrom is second). - Second in WHIP (0.994; deGrom is first). - Second in OBP allowed (.262; deGrom is first). - Second in OPS allowed (.558; Mariano Rivera is first). - Third in lowest slugging (.296; Rivera is first and J.R. Richard second). 2) He allowed hits and baserunners less often than most pitchers. He was historically difficult to hit and also did it in the highest leverage situations until the end of his career. 3) His 2.31 ERA and 0.994 WHIP are the best for a southpaw in the Live Ball Era. 4) He was a seven-time All-Star. It took him 10 years because, among other things, his career innings total is the lowest among Hall of Fame relievers, he faced more competition from other closers with 600-plus saves, like Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and he wasn't great in the post-season. I actually consider myself pretty stingy on my personal HOF votes. One of my main rules is “if I have to think about it for more than a couple seconds, they likely don’t belong. I think both of them belong. I think the reason Wagner took so long is the same reason pitchers like deGrom (statistically superior, but not a lot of wins because their team sucked) never used to win the Cy Young … it took a while for voters to smarten up. For closers, it’s similar to DHs. They don’t play dull games, so they didn’t get votes. We’re seeing a shift, which is long overdue. I think closers deserve consideration more than designated hitters.
ExWNYer Posted Sunday at 04:57 PM Posted Sunday at 04:57 PM 3 hours ago, Gugny said: I actually consider myself pretty stingy on my personal HOF votes. One of my main rules is “if I have to think about it for more than a couple seconds, they likely don’t belong. I think both of them belong. I think the reason Wagner took so long is the same reason pitchers like deGrom (statistically superior, but not a lot of wins because their team sucked) never used to win the Cy Young … it took a while for voters to smarten up. For closers, it’s similar to DHs. They don’t play dull games, so they didn’t get votes. We’re seeing a shift, which is long overdue. I think closers deserve consideration more than designated hitters. WRT Wagner, not only does he pass the eye test but the empirical evidence is there, as well.
Another Fan Posted Sunday at 08:57 PM Author Posted Sunday at 08:57 PM 17 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @Another Fan Sorry, I completely respect your opinions but we're going to agree to disagree on this one. He absolutely belongs. 1) He struck out a third of all batters he faced which is the highest strikeout rate of any pitcher with at least 900 innings. There have been 1,173 pitchers who have thrown 900 innings in the Live Ball Era (since 1920). He ranks: - First in batting average allowed (.187; Nolan Ryan is second and Sandy Koufax third). - First in strikeout percentage (33.2%; Jacob deGrom is second). - Second in WHIP (0.994; deGrom is first). - Second in OBP allowed (.262; deGrom is first). - Second in OPS allowed (.558; Mariano Rivera is first). - Third in lowest slugging (.296; Rivera is first and J.R. Richard second). 2) He allowed hits and baserunners less often than most pitchers. He was historically difficult to hit and also did it in the highest leverage situations until the end of his career. 3) His 2.31 ERA and 0.994 WHIP are the best for a southpaw in the Live Ball Era. 4) He was a seven-time All-Star. It took him 10 years because, among other things, his career innings total is the lowest among Hall of Fame relievers, he faced more competition from other closers with 600-plus saves, like Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and he wasn't great in the post-season. I can't argue your evidence but I did highlight the bolden post-season because that plays a big part IMO in a player's career in consideration for the Hall. If their teams made it that far. To me I don't have a problem with Bill Mazeroski being in the hall of fame even if the rest of his stats don't cut the mustard. He hit probably the most epic home run in Major League Baseball history. That to me added significantly to his Hall of Fame Resume. I would not have an issue or argument against Eli Manning being a first ballot Hall of Famer either based on his two playoff/Super Bowl runs even if the rest of his stats might not cut the mustard either. To me my first thought about Billy Wagner was he really wasn't a big if any upgrade over Armando Benitez. Billy and Steve Traschel I thought were the main duds that series, not Carlos Beltran. I mean it ultimately is what it is. Go Bills 1
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