Gugny Posted January 25 Posted January 25 6 hours ago, Another Fan said: @ExWNYer@Gugny@SinceThe70s happy belated New Year. Any thoughts on Billy Wagner making the Hall of Fame? To me Johnny Franco seems just as or if not more deserving I think they are both deserving and definitely thing Franco is more deserving. Doesn’t even require thought, IMO.
ExWNYer Posted January 25 Posted January 25 On 1/24/2025 at 1:07 PM, Another Fan said: @ExWNYer@Gugny@SinceThe70s happy belated New Year. Any thoughts on Billy Wagner making the Hall of Fame? To me Johnny Franco seems just as or if not more deserving @Gugny @SinceThe70s Wagner definitely deserved to be elected. It was long overdue, IMO. It's a shame that they made him wait until his very last year of eligibility, but better late than never.
SinceThe70s Posted January 25 Posted January 25 23 hours ago, Gugny said: I think they are both deserving and definitely thing Franco is more deserving. Doesn’t even require thought, IMO. 3 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @SinceThe70s Wagner definitely deserved to be elected. It was long overdue, IMO. It's a shame that they made him wait until his very last year of eligibility, but better late than never. I've said it before, I'm a tough grader when it comes to the HOF. I wouldn't put Wagner in and definitely not Franco. The fact that it took 10 years for Wagner to get in speaks volumes to me. Great player, just not a HOFer in my eyes. 1
Gugny Posted January 26 Posted January 26 10 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said: I've said it before, I'm a tough grader when it comes to the HOF. I wouldn't put Wagner in and definitely not Franco. The fact that it took 10 years for Wagner to get in speaks volumes to me. Great player, just not a HOFer in my eyes. I think what Franco did as a lefty should have gotten him in.
SinceThe70s Posted January 26 Posted January 26 1 minute ago, Gugny said: I think what Franco did as a lefty should have gotten him in. To me he was a compiler and never a truly dominant player. I want Hall of Famers to be iconic, no-doubters. It's subjective and fun to debate. Years ago there was a poster who was very knowledgeable about baseball who mocked me when I said I thought Yadier Molina would be a HOFer. Different strokes for different folks. The real tragedy to me is that I've never been to Cooperstown. Incomprehensible.
ExWNYer Posted January 26 Posted January 26 2 hours ago, SinceThe70s said: I've said it before, I'm a tough grader when it comes to the HOF. I wouldn't put Wagner in and definitely not Franco. The fact that it took 10 years for Wagner to get in speaks volumes to me. Great player, just not a HOFer in my eyes. @Gugny @Another Fan Sorry, I completely respect your opinions but we're going to agree to disagree on this one. He absolutely belongs. 1) He struck out a third of all batters he faced which is the highest strikeout rate of any pitcher with at least 900 innings. There have been 1,173 pitchers who have thrown 900 innings in the Live Ball Era (since 1920). He ranks: - First in batting average allowed (.187; Nolan Ryan is second and Sandy Koufax third). - First in strikeout percentage (33.2%; Jacob deGrom is second). - Second in WHIP (0.994; deGrom is first). - Second in OBP allowed (.262; deGrom is first). - Second in OPS allowed (.558; Mariano Rivera is first). - Third in lowest slugging (.296; Rivera is first and J.R. Richard second). 2) He allowed hits and baserunners less often than most pitchers. He was historically difficult to hit and also did it in the highest leverage situations until the end of his career. 3) His 2.31 ERA and 0.994 WHIP are the best for a southpaw in the Live Ball Era. 4) He was a seven-time All-Star. It took him 10 years because, among other things, his career innings total is the lowest among Hall of Fame relievers, he faced more competition from other closers with 600-plus saves, like Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and he wasn't great in the post-season. 1
Gugny Posted January 26 Posted January 26 10 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @Another Fan Sorry, I completely respect your opinions but we're going to agree to disagree on this one. He absolutely belongs. 1) He struck out a third of all batters he faced which is the highest strikeout rate of any pitcher with at least 900 innings. There have been 1,173 pitchers who have thrown 900 innings in the Live Ball Era (since 1920). He ranks: - First in batting average allowed (.187; Nolan Ryan is second and Sandy Koufax third). - First in strikeout percentage (33.2%; Jacob deGrom is second). - Second in WHIP (0.994; deGrom is first). - Second in OBP allowed (.262; deGrom is first). - Second in OPS allowed (.558; Mariano Rivera is first). - Third in lowest slugging (.296; Rivera is first and J.R. Richard second). 2) He allowed hits and baserunners less often than most pitchers. He was historically difficult to hit and also did it in the highest leverage situations until the end of his career. 3) His 2.31 ERA and 0.994 WHIP are the best for a southpaw in the Live Ball Era. 4) He was a seven-time All-Star. It took him 10 years because, among other things, his career innings total is the lowest among Hall of Fame relievers, he faced more competition from other closers with 600-plus saves, like Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and he wasn't great in the post-season. I actually consider myself pretty stingy on my personal HOF votes. One of my main rules is “if I have to think about it for more than a couple seconds, they likely don’t belong. I think both of them belong. I think the reason Wagner took so long is the same reason pitchers like deGrom (statistically superior, but not a lot of wins because their team sucked) never used to win the Cy Young … it took a while for voters to smarten up. For closers, it’s similar to DHs. They don’t play dull games, so they didn’t get votes. We’re seeing a shift, which is long overdue. I think closers deserve consideration more than designated hitters.
ExWNYer Posted January 26 Posted January 26 3 hours ago, Gugny said: I actually consider myself pretty stingy on my personal HOF votes. One of my main rules is “if I have to think about it for more than a couple seconds, they likely don’t belong. I think both of them belong. I think the reason Wagner took so long is the same reason pitchers like deGrom (statistically superior, but not a lot of wins because their team sucked) never used to win the Cy Young … it took a while for voters to smarten up. For closers, it’s similar to DHs. They don’t play dull games, so they didn’t get votes. We’re seeing a shift, which is long overdue. I think closers deserve consideration more than designated hitters. WRT Wagner, not only does he pass the eye test but the empirical evidence is there, as well.
Another Fan Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 17 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @Another Fan Sorry, I completely respect your opinions but we're going to agree to disagree on this one. He absolutely belongs. 1) He struck out a third of all batters he faced which is the highest strikeout rate of any pitcher with at least 900 innings. There have been 1,173 pitchers who have thrown 900 innings in the Live Ball Era (since 1920). He ranks: - First in batting average allowed (.187; Nolan Ryan is second and Sandy Koufax third). - First in strikeout percentage (33.2%; Jacob deGrom is second). - Second in WHIP (0.994; deGrom is first). - Second in OBP allowed (.262; deGrom is first). - Second in OPS allowed (.558; Mariano Rivera is first). - Third in lowest slugging (.296; Rivera is first and J.R. Richard second). 2) He allowed hits and baserunners less often than most pitchers. He was historically difficult to hit and also did it in the highest leverage situations until the end of his career. 3) His 2.31 ERA and 0.994 WHIP are the best for a southpaw in the Live Ball Era. 4) He was a seven-time All-Star. It took him 10 years because, among other things, his career innings total is the lowest among Hall of Fame relievers, he faced more competition from other closers with 600-plus saves, like Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, and he wasn't great in the post-season. I can't argue your evidence but I did highlight the bolden post-season because that plays a big part IMO in a player's career in consideration for the Hall. If their teams made it that far. To me I don't have a problem with Bill Mazeroski being in the hall of fame even if the rest of his stats don't cut the mustard. He hit probably the most epic home run in Major League Baseball history. That to me added significantly to his Hall of Fame Resume. I would not have an issue or argument against Eli Manning being a first ballot Hall of Famer either based on his two playoff/Super Bowl runs even if the rest of his stats might not cut the mustard either. To me my first thought about Billy Wagner was he really wasn't a big if any upgrade over Armando Benitez. Billy and Steve Traschel I thought were the main duds that series, not Carlos Beltran. I mean it ultimately is what it is. Go Bills 1
SinceThe70s Posted January 31 Posted January 31 On 1/26/2025 at 8:40 AM, Gugny said: I actually consider myself pretty stingy on my personal HOF votes. One of my main rules is “if I have to think about it for more than a couple seconds, they likely don’t belong. I think both of them belong. I think the reason Wagner took so long is the same reason pitchers like deGrom (statistically superior, but not a lot of wins because their team sucked) never used to win the Cy Young … it took a while for voters to smarten up. For closers, it’s similar to DHs. They don’t play dull games, so they didn’t get votes. We’re seeing a shift, which is long overdue. I think closers deserve consideration more than designated hitters. The bolded mirrors my thinking. I'm probably biased against closers whose careers over-lapped with Mariano Rivera - which admittedly is unfair. DH's are a different animal to me. Kind of like NFL special teamers, the bar is set much higher. Edgar Martinez and Big Papi were no doubters for me. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone else. Off topic, but talk of DH's reminded me of one of the greatest injustices ever: Rafael Palmeiro winning the Gold Glove in 1999 when he played 28 games at first and 128 at DH. Priceless.
SinceThe70s Posted February 6 Posted February 6 @Gugny @ExWNYer @Another Fan Rumor has it Pete signed a two year deal (opt out after a year) If true, I'm thrilled to have him back. Also feel bad that Bor-@ss did him wrong. 1 1
ExWNYer Posted February 6 Posted February 6 (edited) 50 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said: @Gugny @ExWNYer @Another Fan Rumor has it Pete signed a two year deal (opt out after a year) If true, I'm thrilled to have him back. Also feel bad that Bor-@ss did him wrong. @Gugny @Another Fan He did indeed. 2-year $54M deal with an opt out after the first year. I like it for the Mets. It gives them the opportunity to go after Guerrero next year, if they so choose. A little surprised at the high AAV but glad it's a short deal. I don't feel sorry for Alonso. Nobody made him hire Boras and nobody made him turn down the 7-year $158M deal the Mets offered him last year. He had a mostly lousy 2024, gambled on himself and lost. That said, they need his bat in the lineup to protect Soto. Welcome back, Pete. Edited February 6 by ExWNYer 1
Gugny Posted February 6 Posted February 6 8 hours ago, SinceThe70s said: @Gugny @ExWNYer @Another Fan Rumor has it Pete signed a two year deal (opt out after a year) If true, I'm thrilled to have him back. Also feel bad that Bor-@ss did him wrong. 7 hours ago, ExWNYer said: @Gugny @Another Fan He did indeed. 2-year $54M deal with an opt out after the first year. I like it for the Mets. It gives them the opportunity to go after Guerrero next year, if they so choose. A little surprised at the high AAV but glad it's a short deal. I don't feel sorry for Alonso. Nobody made him hire Boras and nobody made him turn down the 7-year $158M deal the Mets offered him last year. He had a mostly lousy 2024, gambled on himself and lost. That said, they need his bat in the lineup to protect Soto. Welcome back, Pete. Ecstatic. Win-win, for sure. F*ck Boras. Ass.hole has hurt the game so much over the years. If Frankie Lindor can skip his annual April-May slump, the Mets will be unstoppable. #LFGM
SinceThe70s Posted February 6 Posted February 6 2 hours ago, Gugny said: Ecstatic. Win-win, for sure. F*ck Boras. Ass.hole has hurt the game so much over the years. If Frankie Lindor can skip his annual April-May slump, the Mets will be unstoppable. #LFGM I totally get why players flock to Bor-@ass, he's the best at what he does - but some players get screwed and I put Pete in that category. Although in fairness that remains to be seen. Pete turned down $158 over 7. If I understand correctly his new contract is worth a minimum of $30 over 1. Will he claw back the rest in the following 6 years? Maybe.
Gugny Posted February 6 Posted February 6 41 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said: I totally get why players flock to Bor-@ass, he's the best at what he does - but some players get screwed and I put Pete in that category. Although in fairness that remains to be seen. Pete turned down $158 over 7. If I understand correctly his new contract is worth a minimum of $30 over 1. Will he claw back the rest in the following 6 years? Maybe. Pete will definitely end up losing out by not taking the 7-year deal. I am hopeful that he has a career year/gets his ring in 2025 and the rest of his career is gravy as a DH on one of the Florida teams. I read an article this morning on the Athletic and it made clear that his trend lines are heading in the wrong direction and that he’s too one-dimensional (and old) to command a long-term contract. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6118091/2025/02/06/pete-alonso-mets-contract-boras/?source=user_shared_article 1 1
SinceThe70s Posted February 6 Posted February 6 7 minutes ago, Gugny said: Pete will definitely end up losing out by not taking the 7-year deal. I am hopeful that he has a career year/gets his ring in 2025 and the rest of his career is gravy as a DH on one of the Florida teams. I read an article this morning on the Athletic and it made clear that his trend lines are heading in the wrong direction and that he’s too one-dimensional (and old) to command a long-term contract. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6118091/2025/02/06/pete-alonso-mets-contract-boras/?source=user_shared_article It'll be interesting to see if he bounces back. His deal makes each of the next two years a walk year and he didn't fare well in his 2024 walk year. Based on nothing but my gut/feels I think the walk year and contract uncertainty had a negative impact on his performance. His demeanor last year was completely different than previous years.
Another Fan Posted February 6 Author Posted February 6 I figured push came to shove the deal would get done. But it wasn’t looking good there for a while. David was really the last lifer in the Mets organization that stayed his whole career. So hoping big Pete does.
ExWNYer Posted February 7 Posted February 7 On 2/6/2025 at 6:38 AM, Gugny said: Ecstatic. Win-win, for sure. F*ck Boras. Ass.hole has hurt the game so much over the years. If Frankie Lindor can skip his annual April-May slump, the Mets will be unstoppable. #LFGM Not unstoppable but likely excellent. There is a HUGE roadblock out west called the LA Dodgers. They also have a dogfight in their own division with Atlanta and Philadelphia. The Braves made the playoffs with a ton of injuries and no Acuña. They are never dead until someone drives a wooden stake thru their cold, black hearts. On 2/6/2025 at 9:33 AM, SinceThe70s said: I totally get why players flock to Bor-@ass, he's the best at what he does - but some players get screwed and I put Pete in that category. Although in fairness that remains to be seen. Pete turned down $158 over 7. If I understand correctly his new contract is worth a minimum of $30 over 1. Will he claw back the rest in the following 6 years? Maybe. Alonso turning down the long term offer from the Mets before he hired Boras and the 3-year deal he declined prior to the one he just signed were huge miscalculations on his part, IMO, and a gaffe from which he'll likely never recover monetarily. I just can't get to Boras screwing him over. He chose to hire Boras and Pete's subpar 2024 rendered the Boras hiring useless. He bet on himself and hoped that Boras could extract every last penny for him but his play on the field neutered that strategy. Alonso and Boras were able to save face with this contract as the $30M Pete will get this year makes him the highest paid player at his position. Good for him. I genuinely like him and wanted him back but I was to the point of being ambivalent whether he stayed or left. Now that he's here, I hope he crushes and earns his bag whether with the Mets or someplace else. Best case, IMO, is he has a great year and helps the Mets to the WS and the Mets get Guerrero if Pete decides he wants to chase the money elsewhere. Like Gugs said, Pete's had declining metrics for several years. I'm not counting on him "clawing back". I hope he can hit around 40 HRs, bat at least .250, and continue to play a decent first base. I will be shocked if he finishes his career as a Met. He should get to #1 on the Mets all-time HR list this year...he needs 17 to pass David Wright for 2nd and 27 to pass Darryl Strawberry for 1st...before opting out of his contract again and signing elsewhere as the Mets HR king until Soto likely breaks it down the line. 23 hours ago, Gugny said: Pete will definitely end up losing out by not taking the 7-year deal. I am hopeful that he has a career year/gets his ring in 2025 and the rest of his career is gravy as a DH on one of the Florida teams. I read an article this morning on the Athletic and it made clear that his trend lines are heading in the wrong direction and that he’s too one-dimensional (and old) to command a long-term contract. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6118091/2025/02/06/pete-alonso-mets-contract-boras/?source=user_shared_article Agree 💯 21 hours ago, Another Fan said: I figured push came to shove the deal would get done. But it wasn’t looking good there for a while. David was really the last lifer in the Mets organization that stayed his whole career. So hoping big Pete does. It's so rare for that to happen nowadays, as you know. It's not likely to happen again and I don't expect Pete to be the next one to accomplish that feat. He's 30 with declining skills and a doughy body composition. Power hitters like that don't tend to age well. *Note to all: I realize I said I'd like Guerrero but I am also acknowledging that he comes with a similar risk as Pete due to his body composition...but Vlad is a better all-around athlete, IMO. LGM!!! 1
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