I contend that this team's problem isn't coaching, it's talent.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I honestly thought von looked pretty good in that game ironically enough lol hard to fault beane for Milano,  that’s a comfortable win if you replace Klein for Milano even if you allow the chiefs to bring back an injured player to match.  

 

He only played 15 snaps, but we only faced 50 plays and 5 3rd downs.  

[May Day 10]

The thing that has cost the bills 2 Championships imo is the opportunity cost between von miller and a top receiver

 

Not sure who they could have gotten.  Aj brown?  Devante adams?  Dhop?  But a lot of resources go into that von contract

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

To be fair, at the time, the OP wanted Metcalf instead at 9.  However, he has been in our ears about it ever since, albeit using different user names to better mask the crusade.

 

I get it as I was probably pounding the table as hard or harder than anyone for Metcalf before and during that whole draft as well, although I also knew there was little chance we were taking him 9th overall.  I had hoped we would trade up for him when he started falling down into the late first.  Once he slid into the 2nd I was pleading to go get him and then pleading to trade up from our 3rd once we took Ford and he kept sliding in the 2nd further down.

 

But I also wasn't upset coming away with Oliver and Ford in the first 2 picks either.  Ford was projected mid first, and even though I mocked him to us in the 2nd in my last mock before the draft people said I was nuts and he would never get close to our 2nd round pick.  Obviously knowing what we know now, you don't take Ford there, but on draft night it was considered a steal by just about everyone.  Not every pick is gonna work out though.  But I would be willing to bet that Ford was likely BPA on most teams boards when we took him.  

Edited January 30 by Alphadawg7

[Matt_In_NH]

On 1/28/2024 at 3:38 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You know my position on some of his picks

You really think all the members of the board have your position on past draft picks memorized?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

You really think all the members of the board have your position on past draft picks memorized?

Trust me when I tell you that yes, there are some people who do, and remind me of them constantly

 

[Matt_In_NH]

23 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Trust me when I tell you that yes, there are some people who do, and remind me of them constantly

 

You are the Taylor Swift of TBD

[Billever76]

6 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Defense shortcommings due to lack of talent are why the Bills gave been knocked out of the playoffs the last 4 years.

Seems stacking the offense when you have a qb like allen would have been the call from 90% of all nfl hcs

[Figster]

Jim Kelly - elite

 

Thurman Thomas - elite

 

Andre Reed- elite

 

Bruce Smith - elite

 

 

Josh Allen - elite 

[mjt328]

There isn't a magic bullet that suddenly puts the Bills into the Super Bowl.

 

Yes, the roster can always be upgraded.  There are always going to be coaching mistakes we can look back on.  But even if replace Sean McDermott with your favorite coaching prospect and add multiple Pro-Bowl talents in the draft, this team will still be faced with beating a trio of the Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals, 49ers, Eagles, Lions or whoever the league's best are that season.  

 

What people don't realize is that every single season there are around 4-5 legitimate Super Bowl contenders.  Once you hit the Divisional/Championship rounds, those teams start knocking each other off.  To be the team on top, you need to be healthy.  You need to be playing your best ball at the end of the season.  And yes, you need a little bit of luck on your side.  For every Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes and Joe Montana who make it look easy, there are TONS of elite QBs and great teams who STRUGGLE to break through in the postseason.  Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon never won rings.  John Elway took until the final two seasons of his career.  Steve Young, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees only scraped out one victory.  Peyton Manning took years before finally busting through.

 

The Bills have put themselves in that contender conversation now 4 years in a row.  For different reasons, they just haven't been able to get over the hump.  

- In 2020, they were on the back-end of the conversation and needed the Chiefs to have an off-game to upset them.  They didn't.

- In 2021, they lost Tre White in the final stretch.  Everything else seemed to be on track, but it literally came down to a coin flip and they lost.

- In 2022, they had a ton of injuries and the Damar Hamlin thing.  They weren't playing their best at the end of the season.

- In 2023, injuries once again hit in the final few games of the season.

[Augie]

4 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

The thing that has cost the bills 2 Championships imo is the opportunity cost between von miller and a top receiver

 

Not sure who they could have gotten.  Aj brown?  Devante adams?  Dhop?  But a lot of resources go into that von contract

 

They took a big swing, and it initially looked good, but it was a miss. I’ll give them credit for going for it and trying to get over the hump. A lot of people wanted a bold move to get there.  If we had a trophy that contract would a lot sting less. 

 

But yes, getting the right WR would have been great if that had worked out. Everything is a gamble and we’ve had a run of bad luck, but I’m mostly enjoying the ride. It seems like we are due. 

[SoCal Deek]

I must’ve been watching a different game against the Chiefs. The Bills did NOT lose because of their injuries on defense. They lost because when it came down to their final offensive drive, they had the ball…at home….in Chiefs territory and failed to get the First Down that would’ve iced the victory. They played the entire season to put themselves in that very position, and they failed. 

[TheWei44]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I must’ve been watching a different game against the Chiefs. The Bills did NOT lose because of their injuries on defense. They lost because when it came down to their final offensive drive, they had the ball…at home….in Chiefs territory and failed to get the First Down that would’ve iced the victory. They played the entire season to put themselves in that very position, and they failed. 

All the plays in a game by both teams determines the winner.  Sure, some plays matter more than others, but wins and losses generally cannot be distilled to the result of one or two plays.  For example, when Mahomes threw a TD pass to a wide-open Kelsey in the endzone, was that the reason we lost?  Of course not.  But it didn't help either and the ease with which the Chiefs moved the ball was a big reason we lost the game.  We lost because the sum of their plays was a little bit better than the sum of our plays. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, TheWei44 said:

All the plays in a game by both teams determines the winner.  Sure, some plays matter more than others, but wins and losses generally cannot be distilled to the result of one or two plays.  For example, when Mahomes threw a TD pass to a wide-open Kelsey in the endzone, was that the reason we lost?  Of course not.  But it didn't help either and the ease with which the Chiefs moved the ball was a big reason we lost the game.  We lost because the sum of their plays was a little bit better than the sum of our plays. 

I see people say stuff like this all the time. If going into Sunday you would know that the Bills would have the ball deep in Chiefs territory and with the win in the hands of their Super Star at HOME, I’m betting both you and I would take that circumstance all day, every day! 

[BigDingus]

Well yeah, mostly.

 

Coaching plays a role, but talent & execution on the field is a bigger factor.

 

There were plenty of times, even under Dorsey, where fans were pissed about playcalling on a drive.... But when a play is there & you got the look that was wanted, it's not on the OC if the receiver drops a pass that hits them in the hands. Maybe it's a play that doesn't even get a chance to develop, as a linemen just whiffs on a block & is instantly in the backfield. That's execution & talent.

 

Then again, the HC has major input in what talent we do have. So even if it's not coaching, the coach (and FO) deserves some blame for the lack of talent.

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I see people say stuff like this all the time. If going into Sunday you would know that the Bills would have the ball deep in Chiefs territory and with the win in the hands of their Super Star at HOME, I’m betting both you and I would take that circumstance all day, every day! 

 

I agree. The defense and the injuries are factors in the loss. But if I'd given you the exact situation coming out of the 2 minute warning before the game and said "will you sign for that?" 95%of this board would have gladly signed for it. The game was right there for us and we just couldn't execute well enough. 

Edited January 31 by GunnerBill

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I wouldn't read too much into Baltimore stopping KC on Sunday. I think Reid and Mahomes knew that was a game where if they didn't turn it over 2nd half they wouldn't lose. When Baltimore needed to stop them the Chiefs immediately hit a play down the field. Not taking anything away from the Ravens defense, but Reid and Mahomes play that differently when they know a punt is going to #17. 

 

You are overselling this. The Chiefs were up by 10 coming out of halftime... Andy Reid is smart enough to know that is nothing in the playoffs. At that point, before Flowers fumbled into the endzone effectively ending the game, the Chiefs knew they would likely need one more TD to put the game away. Instead they started the 2nd half with a 3 and out. Then they had their next drive stall out at midfield. Then they had another 3 and out on the next drive. Only after this 3rd failed drive did Flowers fumble the game away. So sure if you want to make the argument that they played conservative after that, that's reasonable. But those first 3 drives were critical and the Ravens defense just kept making stops.

 

Compare that sequence to the Chiefs 2nd half against us. They started the 2nd half with two consecutive zero-resistance TD drives. Their 3rd drive after our failed fake punt they again were moving the ball at will and only stalled out because of Hardman's dumb mistake.

 

The two defensive performances are really not comparable at all. At the same critical juncture in each game, one defense held firm, while the other defense got their teeth knocked out. There's no reason to think the Chiefs were just not trying as hard against the Ravens. Those were legitimate stops... The deep completion to MVS on the final drive has no relevance.

 

But hey I don't blame just coaching. Look at the true down-to-down game changers the Chiefs fielded against us:

 

Mahomes

Kelce

Jones

Sneed

Thuney

Humphrey

 

Compared to the true game changers we fielded against them:

 

Allen

 

You can quibble on a couple names on the Chiefs list, but you can't quibble that Allen was the only true game changer for us down the stretch. I know you are a believer in top end talent mattering more than depth. Measuring ours against theirs, it is no contest. The Chiefs also had a proper FG kicker and we didn't. Given those disadvantages it's a damn miracle that we only lost by 3. A miracle created by Allen putting on another all-world performance that (again) was wasted by an abysmal defensive showing.

 

This is why I have no patience for anyone that says the difference between Mahomes and Allen is why the Bills can't get past the Chiefs. It is quite clearly the difference between everything else around them. In this game given how it went, I would easily trade any of the following players for their equal on the Chiefs before I would trade Allen for Mahomes (in order from most impactful to least):

 

Kincaid for Kelce

Oliver for Jones

Klein for Bolton

Jackson for Sneed

Sherfield for MVS

Bass for Butker

 

I would also take Reid over Brady (obviously) and Spagunolo over McDermott (I know you likely disagree with this but to me it's not really debateable).

 

I 100% believe that if you trade everything EXCEPT the QBs in the 2021 and 2023 seasons, the Bills would already have one Super Bowl ring and be on their way to a possible 2nd.

 

Edited January 31 by HappyDays

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

You are overselling this. The Chiefs were up by 10 coming out of halftime... Andy Reid is smart enough to know that is nothing in the playoffs. At that point, before Flowers fumbled into the endzone effectively ending the game, the Chiefs knew they would likely need one more TD to put the game away. Instead they started the 2nd half with a 3 and out. Then they had their next drive stall out at midfield. Then they had another 3 and out on the next drive. Only after this 3rd failed drive did Flowers fumble the game away. So sure if you want to make the argument that they played conservative after that, that's reasonable. But those first 3 drives were critical and the Ravens defense just kept making stops.

 

Compare that sequence to the Chiefs 2nd half against us. They started the 2nd half with two consecutive zero-resistance TD drives. Their 3rd drive after our failed fake punt they again were moving the ball at will and only stalled out because of Hardman's dumb mistake.

 

The two defensive performances are really not comparable at all. At the same critical juncture in each game, one defense held firm, while the other defense got their teeth knocked out. There's no reason to think the Chiefs were just not trying as hard against the Ravens. Those were legitimate stops... The deep completion to MVS on the final drive has no relevance.

 

But hey I don't blame just coaching. Look at the true down-to-down game changers the Chiefs fielded against us:

 

Mahomes

Kelce

Jones

Sneed

Thuney

Humphrey

 

Compared to the true game changers we fielded against them:

 

Allen

 

You can quibble on a couple names on the Chiefs list, but you can't quibble that Allen was the only true game changer for us down the stretch. I know you are a believer in top end talent mattering more than depth. Measuring ours against theirs, it is no contest. The Chiefs also had a proper FG kicker and we didn't. Given those disadvantages it's a damn miracle that we only lost by 3. A miracle created by Allen putting on another all-world performance that (again) was wasted by an abysmal defensive showing.

 

This is why I have no patience for anyone that says the difference between Mahomes and Allen is why the Bills can't get past the Chiefs. It is quite clearly the difference between everything else around them. In this game given how it went, I would easily trade any of the following players for their equal on the Chiefs before I would trade Allen for Mahomes (in order from most impactful to least):

 

Kincaid for Kelce

Oliver for Jones

Klein for Bolton

Jackson for Sneed

Sherfield for MVS

Bass for Butker

 

I would also take Reid over Brady (obviously) and Spagunolo over McDermott (I know you likely disagree with this but to me it's not really debateable).

 

I 100% believe that if you trade everything EXCEPT the QBs in the 2021 and 2023 seasons, the Bills would already have one Super Bowl ring and be on their way to a possible 2nd.

 

 

I think you are slightly overselling what I am saying. I am not saying that the Chiefs were not trying to score or that the Ravens defense didn't play better than ours. Our defense sucked the week before. I am just saying that the Chiefs call the game differently when the guy on the other side is #17. No two games are the same and every game has its own flow. Baltimore has a lot of talent on that defense and they played a really nice second half. They deserve credit for that. But as soon as Mahomes needed a play he found one. As he just always seems to in the post season. 

 

And I haven't ever argued that the difference between the two teams is Mahomes over Allen. Mahomes is still to me the best Quarterback in football. Allen is #2. But the difference between those two isn't the reason we haven't got over the hump. 

[TheWei44]

13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I see people say stuff like this all the time. If going into Sunday you would know that the Bills would have the ball deep in Chiefs territory and with the win in the hands of their Super Star at HOME, I’m betting both you and I would take that circumstance all day, every day! 

Completely agree!  But that's also besides the point.  There's a tendency to focus on one or two plays and say if such and such had happened or didn't happen, then the outcome of the game would have been different.  Except for the literal last play of the game, when the result may determine the game, all other individual plays are just part of the mosaic of the game, if you will.  It's a little pet peeve of mine when someone says (not you specifically) essentially that if the 21nd play of the game had turned out differently, then we would have won (where that play might have been a pick six or just a pick or a missed FG).  But the rest of the game from that point forward would have been different too so you can't assume everything else would have stayed the same . . . 

[SoCal Deek]

18 minutes ago, TheWei44 said:

Completely agree!  But that's also besides the point.  There's a tendency to focus on one or two plays and say if such and such had happened or didn't happen, then the outcome of the game would have been different.  Except for the literal last play of the game, when the result may determine the game, all other individual plays are just part of the mosaic of the game, if you will.  It's a little pet peeve of mine when someone says (not you specifically) essentially that if the 21nd play of the game had turned out differently, then we would have won (where that play might have been a pick six or just a pick or a missed FG).  But the rest of the game from that point forward would have been different too so you can't assume everything else would have stayed the same . . . 

Agree, which is why I focus on the very end of the game. Everything else before that would’ve changed the back and forth strategy of both teams. So in the case of the Bills v Chiefs it all came down to maintaining the ball control strategy that had worked for pretty much the entire game. We had them exactly where we wanted them. We had the ball, at home, deep in their territory, with a chance to run the clock down to practically nothing (or at least less than 13 seconds)….but inexplicably we diverted from the strategy that got us exactly where we wanted to be. I have absolutely no idea why but the result is we’re playing golf three weeks too early. 

[mjt328]

23 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

The thing that has cost the bills 2 Championships imo is the opportunity cost between von miller and a top receiver

 

Not sure who they could have gotten.  Aj brown?  Devante adams?  Dhop?  But a lot of resources go into that von contract

 

Following the 2021 AFC Divisional loss, the general consensus amongst most Bills fans was that:

-  The big thing missing was "a closer" at the pass rush position

-  Gabe Davis was going to be a superstar #2 WR

 

Until the ACL injury on Thanksgiving, Miller was playing great for us.  And at that time, most felt that Brandon Beane had done a great job in landing him.  Sure there were some who always hated the contract.  But it wasn't until the injury that Bills fans started raising questions.  And it wasn't until Miller returned Week 5 and was totally ineffective... then suddenly everyone started acting like signing him was an obvious mistake.

 

In regards to Davis, it wasn't until about 4-5 games into the 2022 season when fans started questioning him as the #2.  If the Bills had traded for A.J. Brown or Davante Adams after a 4 touchdown postseason game, fans would have thrown an absolute fit.  And I highly doubt that a better WR opposite Stefon Diggs would have made any difference in the Bengals playoff game.  

Edited January 31 by mjt328