Mat68 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 8 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said: I am puzzled by the lack of hype for Legette. I think the concerns with him are: 1 year production, a bit older than other prospects, long speed but not instant acceleration and he doesn’t look like a “smooth” mover like say Troy Franklin. But man, he looks pretty fast, is built VERY strong and seems to catch pretty well with his hands. If they could be sure he would be available at 60, I would say take a DL in round 1 and him in round 2. We will see how he (and others) test this week, but my guess is 4.5ish 40, pretty good jumps and just OK short area quickness and agility. Unless the Bills manage to sign a decent DT and DE in FA, I don’t think they will take a 2nd receiver until late because the DL and S are in limbo right now. Contested catch is not a translatable metric to the NFL. If a prospect has too many it normally leans to a larger underlying issue of lack of generating separation. Thats why guys like Kupp, Nucua, Dell, St Brown and many others taken in the middle rounds have been productive in the NFL. They were not super fast or elite in any area but in college they were “open” and created separation. That is something that translate to the NFL. Now add in the Leggette is not as big when measured at the senior bowl its becoming more problematic for him to go early. 6-1 vs 6-3 with average hand size makes his contested catch ability less and less likley to translate. At 60 possible at 100 def a consideration. 1 2 Quote
OldTimer1960 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 (edited) 17 hours ago, Mat68 said: Contested catch is not a translatable metric to the NFL. If a prospect has too many it normally leans to a larger underlying issue of lack of generating separation. Thats why guys like Kupp, Nucua, Dell, St Brown and many others taken in the middle rounds have been productive in the NFL. They were not super fast or elite in any area but in college they were “open” and created separation. That is something that translate to the NFL. Now add in the Leggette is not as big when measured at the senior bowl its becoming more problematic for him to go early. 6-1 vs 6-3 with average hand size makes his contested catch ability less and less likley to translate. At 60 possible at 100 def a consideration. I understand your point about contested catches, but is that a big concern with Legette? He isn’t going to be a rote runner supreme like McConkey is, but bigger, likely faster and much stronger should translate to getting open. In the few games I’ve seen of Legette, he doesn’t seem like every catch is contested, but it’s nice that he can make those. The examples you cited (Nacua, Dell, St. Brown, etc) make a lot of their living in the slot and middle of the field. Inside, route runners have a little more room and can go either way on a cut. Outside, that’s possible too, but they are more constrained. I am biased towards the nuanced route runners, too, but Bills already have Kincaid and Shakir looks on the upswing and both will be mostly in the middle of the field. Another receiver operating in there seems like it would bring too many defenders in there. Edited February 27 by OldTimer1960 1 Quote
Mat68 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 From my unhealthy mock drafts and looking at the current crop of wr from different talking heads here is kind of a break down. Harrison, Nabers and Uduze are all top 10 bound. Thomas Jr seems like the current next guy. With a fast 40 will most likley go outside of the Bills reach imo. The next group seem to be in play for Buffalo at 28. Franklin and Worthy seem to be the most obvious at the top of the group with both expect to be 4.4 or less. Coleman and Mitchell with a good showing in Indy could move to the top of this batch but would likley need to break 4.5 for me to be in the discussion. 60 is quite interesting. You have guys moving all over the place. Guys like Baker and Corely who were mid rd targets are not locks to be there when Buffalo picks. Add in Leggette McKoncky both Washington Wrs Polk and Mccellon may or may not be there. From here on out its a crap shoot. Very much eye of the beholder but also no telling who is available and is it a guy you like or want. Mid rders who may or may not make it to day 3 Luke Mccaffery Brandon Rice with their bloodlines. Thrash from Louisville, Washington from Virgina, Burton from Alabama. Wr is deep but its impossible to project who will be available when. Im in the take the guy you like best at 28. Draft kind of sets up for Bills other needs the rest of the way. Interesting safety's day 3. Mcbeanes style DL day 2. I think you can add another solid Wr day 2 or 3 that pairs with who ever you go with in rd 1. 1 Quote
Mat68 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 20 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said: I understand your point about contested catches, but is that a big concern with Legette? He isn’t going to be a rote runner supreme like McConkey is, but bigger, likely faster and much stronger should translate to getting open. In the few games I’ve seen of Legette, he doesn’t seem like every catch is contested, but it’s nice that he can make those. The examples you cited (Nacua, Dell, St. Brown, etc) make a lot of their living in the slot and middle of the field. Inside, route runners have a little more room and can go either way on a cut. Outside, that’s possible too, but the are is more constrained. I am biased towards the nuanced route runners, too, but Bills already have Kincaid and Shakir looks on the upswing and both will be mostly in the middle of the field. Another receiver operating in there seems like it would bring too many defenders in there. If he runs well sure. I dont think he posts a time faster than McConkey. The guy that cant separate and super fast guy who cant stop are the 2 player arcs imo that dont succeed in the NFL. Both are the same thing. They dont create separation. Day 3 take a swing on production and a guy dont think you find success in rd 1 with it. 1 Quote
GunnerBill Posted February 26 Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, Mat68 said: If he runs well sure. I dont think he posts a time faster than McConkey. The guy that cant separate and super fast guy who cant stop are the 2 player arcs imo that dont succeed in the NFL. Both are the same thing. They dont create separation. Day 3 take a swing on production and a guy dont think you find success in rd 1 with it. I think Legette will run faster than McConkey. 2 Quote
DJB Posted February 26 Posted February 26 (edited) 12 WR’s in the top 50. 2. Marvin Harrison 3. Rome Odunze 4. Malik Nabers 16. Brian Thomas jr 33. Adonai Mitchell 36. Keon Coleman 37. Troy Franklin 41. Xavier Worthy 42. Ladd McConkey 44. Malachi Corley 48. Ricky Pearsall 50. Roman Wilson Edited February 26 by DJB Quote
DCOrange Posted February 26 Posted February 26 1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said: I am puzzled by the lack of hype for Legette. I think the concerns with him are: 1 year production, a bit older than other prospects, long speed but not instant acceleration and he doesn’t look like a “smooth” mover like say Troy Franklin. But man, he looks pretty fast, is built VERY strong and seems to catch pretty well with his hands. If they could be sure he would be available at 60, I would say take a DL in round 1 and him in round 2. We will see how he (and others) test this week, but my guess is 4.5ish 40, pretty good jumps and just OK short area quickness and agility. Unless the Bills manage to sign a decent DT and DE in FA, I don’t think they will take a 2nd receiver until late because the DL and S are in limbo right now. I've mentioned a few times throughout this thread already...I feel like @GunnerBill and I generally see prospects the same way but Legette is one that we've really diverged on. I know he likes Legette a lot. I don't hate him or anything but I see him as more of a 3rd rounder than a 1st personally. I tend to shy away from older prospects and prospects that took a long time to figure it out in college and Legette checks both of those boxes. Among the 19 WR prospects I've scouted so far this year (which is basically all of the top guys in the class with a couple exceptions), Legette is the 2nd oldest as he's already 23 years old. If you expand it out to all of the guys that PFF considers to be draftable, his age doesn't look as bad because a lot of the late round guys this year are very old, but point being, he's older than I like in an early round pick. On top of that, he almost literally did not do anything at the college level until his 5th season; this is a big no no for me and historically speaking, it's very rare to find a WR with a breakout age as high as Legette's that went on to have any success in the NFL. To me, Legette is a bit of a project in that he's big, strong, and fast but is pretty unpolished right now as a player and I'm just not super interested in that mold of prospect when they're relatively very old. It feels like a very low percentage play and I'd just rather let another team take that chance personally. Having said all that... 22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think Legette will run faster than McConkey. Even I agree with this lol 1 1 Quote
OldTimer1960 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 (edited) 42 minutes ago, DJB said: 12 WR’s in the top 50. 2. Marvin Harrison 3. Rome Odunze 4. Malik Nabers 16. Brian Thomas jr 33. Adonai Mitchell 36. Keon Coleman 37. Troy Franklin 41. Xavier Worthy 42. Ladd McConkey 44. Malachi Corley 48. Ricky Pearsall 50. Roman Wilson For all the hype around this class, the pickings for a big, fast outside receiver who can run patterns other than deep shots are pretty slim. If we accept that Harrison, Odunze, Nabers and Thomas are going to be out of reach, it leaves (from that list) Franklin who has speed, height and some smoothness but is very thin (probably not making a living over the middle), Worthy who is a more extreme case than Franklin, and Mitchell/Coleman who have size and some agility, but probably aren’t burners. The rest on that list are going to have problems trying to fill the role that Gabe Davis had and they need to be mostly slot guys. I do like Javon Baker, but I don’t know how high they would have to take him. 60? 99? Edited February 26 by OldTimer1960 Quote
Warriorspikes51 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 Sean today at Combine Presser specifically referenced explosive plays on offense. The importance of deep plays and YAC on short plays. 2 Quote
Solomon Grundy Posted February 27 Posted February 27 4 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said: Sean today at Combine Presser specifically referenced explosive plays on offense. The importance of deep plays and YAC on short plays. Xavier Legette come on down!! 1 Quote
Turk71 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 6 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said: If we accept that Harrison, Odunze, Nabers and Thomas are going to be out of reach, it leaves (from that list) Franklin who has speed, height and some smoothness but is very thin (probably not making a living over the middle), Franklin is thin for his height and frame at 6'3" ~190, but consider that he has put on 20 lbs in the last 2-3 years (170 lbs entering college) and just turned 21 a couple weeks ago. I think he still has some filling out to do. With the proper training table diet and exercise I think he could easily put on another 10-15 lbs of muscle without slowing down. 6'3" ~205 is a good size for an outside receiver. 1 Quote
Turk71 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 One thing I like about Franklin that I'd like to add; Bo Nix is a very mobile qb who likes to evade the rush and extend plays like Allen does. Franklin was great at getting open and being available for him in those situations. I met my wife at the Univ of Oregon where she ran track and we are followers of all Ducks sports. We still live near Eugene 28 years later. I have probably seen almost every one of his games on TV or in person. He is a threat to score from anywhere on the field and especially on extended plays. He is also a nuanced receiver who runs great routes with deceptive breaks and short area quickness. He's not just fast. 2 1 3 Quote
Warriorspikes51 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 9 minutes ago, Turk71 said: One thing I like about Franklin that I'd like to add; Bo Nix is a very mobile qb who likes to evade the rush and extend plays like Allen does. Franklin was great at getting open and being available for him in those situations. I met my wife at the Univ of Oregon where she ran track and we are followers of all Ducks sports. We still live near Eugene 28 years later. I have probably seen almost every one of his games on TV or in person. He is a threat to score from anywhere on the field and especially on extended plays. He is also a nuanced receiver who runs great routes with deceptive breaks and short area quickness. He's not just fast. awesome post!! I had read about how he developed that chemistry and feel with Bo Nix during scramble plays. Would be a real asset for Allen. I keep going back and forth between Franklin and Thomas Jr on who I like more! Troy seems to have a unique long stride and I do think his route skills are underrated 1 1 Quote
Turk71 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: awesome post!! I had read about how he developed that chemistry and feel with Bo Nix during scramble plays. Would be a real asset for Allen. I keep going back and forth between Franklin and Thomas Jr on who I like more! Troy seems to have a unique long stride and I do think his route skills are underrated Thomas is a great talent as well. I have heard from many that he probably won't make it to 28. I don't know enough to have an opinion on that. I guess we'll found out in a couple months. I prefer Franklin because I think he is a more complete receiver at this point (and I'm a Ducks fan), route running, deceptive breaks, etc. But I like Thomas size, speed and elusiveness as well. I'd be happy if they land either one of those 2. 1 Quote
Warriorspikes51 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Turk71 said: Thomas is a great talent as well. I have heard from many that he probably won't make it to 28. I don't know enough to have an opinion on that. I guess we'll found out in a couple months. I prefer Franklin because I think he is a more complete receiver at this point (and I'm a Ducks fan), route running, deceptive breaks, etc. But I like Thomas size, speed and elusiveness as well. I'd be happy if they land either one of those 2. would you trade our 2025 1st + 60 + something else to acquire another 1st this year if it meant drafting both of those players? I think their skills would complement each other well If they both hit…which they should… you are really really good at weapons for Allen for the next 5 seasons total nightmare for defenses. Diggs (1-3 years) Brian Thomas Jr Troy Franklin Khalil Shakir Dalton Kincaid Edited February 27 by Warriorspikes51 1 Quote
Turk71 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: would you trade our 2025 1st + 60 + something else to acquire another 1st this year if it meant drafting both of those players? I think their skills would complement each other well If they both hit…which they should… you are really really good at weapons for Allen for the next 5 seasons Doesn't seem like that would be a real possibility....but we can dream. Diggs Shakir Franklin, Thomas, and Kincaid would definitely give DCs nightmares Adding just one of them to that group would be scary enough as it is.. Let's hope they can do that at least Quote
MiracleAtRich1393 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: would you trade our 2025 1st + 60 + something else to acquire another 1st this year if it meant drafting both of those players? I think their skills would complement each other well If they both hit…which they should… you are really really good at weapons for Allen for the next 5 seasons total nightmare for defenses. Diggs (1-3 years) Brian Thomas Jr Troy Franklin Khalil Shakir Dalton Kincaid If I'm trading next year's 1st and this year's 2nd I'm including #28 and Elam to get in the top 7 for Nabers Looking at this draft chart, getting up to #6 with the Giants is not crazy. If Elam is worth a third (~200), 2025 first worth ~400, that gets you to Minnesota at #11. Swap this year's 2nd for NYG's 4th (net 225) and I think we've got ourselves a deal. Schoen owes us! Malik Nabers you ARE a Buffalo Bill https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp?RequestTeam=Buf Edited February 27 by MiracleAtRich1393 Clarity 1 Quote
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 1 hour ago, MiracleAtRich1393 said: If I'm trading next year's 1st and this year's 2nd I'm including #28 and Elam to get in the top 7 for Nabers Looking at this draft chart, getting up to #6 with the Giants is not crazy. If Elam is worth a third (~200), 2025 first worth ~400, that gets you to Minnesota at #11. Swap this year's 2nd for NYG's 4th (net 225) and I think we've got ourselves a deal. Schoen owes us! Malik Nabers you ARE a Buffalo Bill https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp?RequestTeam=Buf No one's giving us a 3rd for Elam. Reportedly there were no offers for him beyond a bag of balls at the Deadline. That's why he wasn't moved. An injury riddled last part of the season where we didn't call on him until Douglas AND Benford went down didn't improve matters. I find it highly unlikely that Beane is trading away a next year's 1st for anyone. His 1sts are gold to him. He didn't even trade away the extra 1st he had when we got Josh. The only time he did move a 1st was when Diggs was available and he decided he'd rather him than any WR that would be on the board when we picked that year. Future 1sts factor too much into his plans to replace players he may or may not be able to re-sign. The other problem here is teams don't generally want to move down 20+ picks. Even if the value works, you still have to convince the team to move down THAT far. Very unlikely they'd want to. Most mocks have Nabers going to the Giants at #6. I don't see any way they'd pass on him and give him to us. I don't care what the deal offered is. 2 Quote
Nihilarian Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Everyone seems to be so excited to draft a WR or two and yet from what I've seen over the years very rarely does a rookie WR make a huge impact. Yes, there have been some recently Justin Jefferson, Puka Nacua. I'd rather see the Bills obtain a top veteran WR like Mike Evans. Josh Needs deep-speed help now. 1 Quote
Richard Noggin Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) Seems to me like Thomas is 100% gone at 28, and Franklin is as well unfortunately. Which leaves a likely fog of Mitchell, Coleman, Worthy, Legette, Polk, Baker, Wilson, Pearsall, (someone I'm absolutely overlooking,) etc., to choose from at WR. Which also opens the door for value at a slightly less fan-obsessed position like DT, DE, OL, etc. #28 pick will represent sneaky good value as long as Beane and Co. can hold tight. Someone worthy of the pick will be there if they can let the board fall to them. 22 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: Everyone seems to be so excited to draft a WR or two and yet from what I've seen over the years very rarely does a rookie WR make a huge impact. Yes, there have been some recently Justin Jefferson, Puka Nacua. I'd rather see the Bills obtain a top veteran WR like Mike Evans. Josh Needs deep-speed help now. Okay, awesome, but what about the salary cap? Where does Monsieur Evans' money come from? Is it Morse? Poyer? White? 2/3? I'm willing to be talked into it tbh Edited February 27 by Richard Noggin 1 Quote
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