KOKBILLS Posted February 19 Posted February 19 4 hours ago, NewEra said: I hope your feeling is wrong. I don’t hate Worthy, I like his skills- I’m just bullish on 170lb players in the NFL, especially with a first rd pick. I know I know, but Devonta Smith! Seems like the exception rather than the rule. Totally fair... He's very skinny... I'd love to add Worthy as part of an entire package, but it's tough to see him as a future #1... I think the Bills are looking for an explosive WR that can play the X and take bubble screens. He fits that profile. I also think they Drafted Shorter for a reason and that reason was specifically to take Gabe's place as the do-the-dirty-work wide out. They spent a 5th on him and that was no coincidence. They see something in Shorter that fits...Anyway... I could be WAY off on this but the explosive X part fits Worthy... That's what he'll be... And there's only one team with Josh Allen's arm...So he will be explosive... JMO of course... 2 1 Quote
KOKBILLS Posted February 19 Posted February 19 7 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said: Worthy’s speed is enticing, but wouldn’t he almost have to play in the slot to be most effective? I think he will struggle big time out wide at 170lbs. To me, they would be pushing Shakir out of the lineup and still have nobody to play where Davis did. I don't see Worthy as a slot at all... Unless he's taking a bubble screens... You want him outside... He's is extremely fast...The Bills would use him like they used Smoke and Sanders. The skinny stuff is the risk with Worthy. And I'm not saying it's worth the risk at all. I'm only saying his skill set is what the Bills desperately want, and need... 1 1 Quote
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 19 Posted February 19 6 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: I just put a mock in the simulator thread. I think it's reasonable, though obviously just playing out various possible scenarios. No doubt the valuation of specific players is going to change a lot, and the actual boards of NFL teams will doubtless differ greatly from these simulator lists. It goes WR, DT, S, DT, WR, S, Edge, RB, OT, WR. In short, it follows the most likely heuristic based on need and past proclivities at OBD. Regardless, I expect Beane will find a way to finagle the cap sufficiently to bring back enough vets to lessen overall dependence on rookies. I do see us bringing in FA's on the Defensive side of the ball. But the odds we're going to be able to cover all of the following in FA seems unlikely to me: 1 Starting DE (or at least capable of starting if Von doesn't improve), 1 rotational depth rusher 1 Starting DT, 3 rotational depth lineman (including #3 who will get a LOT of reps) 2 Starting Safeties (as reading between the lines of McDermott and Beane's pressers, it seems likely Poyer and Hyde will both be gone), 1 for depth. We'll take care of a number of them in FA. But all 5 of the important spots (starters at DE, DT, both Safety spots, and 3rd DT) with surefire replacements? I don't see it. We're going to need that 2nd and 3rd to cover a couple of them. 1 Quote
Dr. Who Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) 16 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said: I do see us bringing in FA's on the Defensive side of the ball. But the odds we're going to be able to cover all of the following in FA seems unlikely to me: 1 Starting DE (or at least capable of starting if Von doesn't improve), 1 rotational depth rusher 1 Starting DT, 3 rotational depth lineman (including #3 who will get a LOT of reps) 2 Starting Safeties (as reading between the lines of McDermott and Beane's pressers, it seems likely Poyer and Hyde will both be gone), 1 for depth. We'll take care of a number of them in FA. But all 5 of the important spots (starters at DE, DT, both Safety spots, and 3rd DT) with surefire replacements? I don't see it. We're going to need that 2nd and 3rd to cover a couple of them. Yeah, I just pointed out that in a mock, I took DT in the second, and S in the third, with 2 DT, 1 Edge, and 2 S each selected in the draft as a whole. There's no way FA will cover all the defensive holes. Hopefully, it does enough to provide the capacity for some flexibility in what is prioritized in the draft. All the same, I expect as I have said repeatedly now, WR, DT, and S to be the first three picks. Had to edit, as I went back and saw I only took 1 Edge. It's not a great draft at the position. Still, that is the most plausible path. All I add is that if a really good WR falls to #60, even if we grabbed one in the first, I'd like to think Beane could find a way to take advantage, and employ the rest of the draft to supplement the D. Whether or not that is actually possible is another matter. Edited February 19 by Dr. Who 1 1 Quote
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) 7 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: I don't see Worthy as a slot at all... Unless he's taking a bubble screens... You want him outside... He's is extremely fast...The Bills would use him like they used Smoke and Sanders. The skinny stuff is the risk with Worthy. And I'm not saying it's worth the risk at all. I'm only saying his skill set is what the Bills desperately want, and need... You don't see him as an NFL slot at all? Because he took 40% of his snaps at the College level last season in the Slot. I'm sorry, but anyone who has that small of a frame and was only split out wide just 60% of the time in College can't be trusted to play exclusively on the boundary in the NFL - which is what we're in the market for. I think Shorter may develop into something, but he's a total Wild Card. There's no way they think he's ready to take over and start full time. And Worthy in the slot would remove Shakir and/or Kincaid from the field. Worthy may be fast, but he's at best a tweener that you have to use creatively. He simply does not check enough of the requisite boxes for the role we're looking for. Worthy fans drool over his highlight videos and ignore everything else. That's not how Beane operates. He'll take the guy who fits all the traits he's looking for and athletic specimens who are sometimes looked at more as work in progresses over simply looking at College highlight reels, every day of the week and twice on Sunday's. I'm practically positive it will be either Thomas Jr, Franklin, Coleman, Mitchell, or Legette. We can still get speed and talent without having to give up size and true X usage and experience at the College level. Even Franklin's a little small. But he still has 2.5-3" and 20 more lbs. on Worthy and was used in the slot only 17% of the time last season - compared to Worthy's 40% Edited February 19 by BillsFanForever19 2 3 Quote
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted February 19 Posted February 19 BR just did a breakdown on Keon Coleman https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2024/2/18/24070751/buffalo-bills-2024-nfl-draft-analysis-film-study-of-wr-keon-coleman Honestly, I would take him at 28. He's not the Y burner that Franklin would be, but I think he portends as a "open when he's covered" guy who can outmuscle a WR and his YAC seems to fit what Brady would like to do. But it's really going to depend on how the draft falls. I'm seeing a lot of "immediate starter at WR2, not an automatic upgrade from Diggs" profiles 1 Quote
KOKBILLS Posted February 19 Posted February 19 11 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said: You don't see him as an NFL slot at all? Because he took 40% of his snaps at the College level last season in the Slot. I'm sorry, but anyone who has that small of a frame and was only split out wide just 60% of the time in College can't be trusted to play exclusively on the boundary in the NFL - which is what we're in the market for. I think Shorter may develop into something, but he's a total Wild Card. There's no way they think he's ready to take over and start full time. And Worthy in the slot would remove Shakir and/or Kincaid from the field. Worthy may be fast, but he's at best a tweener that you have to use creatively. He simply does not check enough of the requisite boxes for the role we're looking for. Worthy fans drool over his highlight videos and ignore everything else. That's not how Beane operates. He'll take the guy who fits all the traits he's looking for and athletic specimens who are sometimes looked at more as work in progresses over simply looking at College highlight reels, every day of the week and twice on Sunday's. I'm practically positive it will be either Thomas Jr, Franklin, Coleman, Mitchell, or Legette. We can still get speed and talent without having to give up size and true X usage and experience at the College level. Even Franklin's a little small. But he still has 2.5-3" and 20 more lbs. on Worthy and was used in the slot only 17% of the time last season - compared to Worthy's 40% I think Worthy will get killed in the NFL if he plays a lot of slot... They'll break him in half... I greatly...greatly prefer Franklin, Thomas, and Legette to Worthy... Mitchell too if he runs decent... Coleman I'm not sure only because of his separation issues... But I do think he's got great upside... And the way you are thumbs-downing everyone of my posts on Worthy... I get it... You don't like him...lol...I'm not huge on him either... I just think the Bills may be...He's lightning in a bottle if used properly. And they want explosive traits... At least that's what Beane said... We'll see though... Hopefully we get Franklin and all is good... 1 2 Quote
Dr. Who Posted February 19 Posted February 19 42 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said: I think Worthy will get killed in the NFL if he plays a lot of slot... They'll break him in half... I greatly...greatly prefer Franklin, Thomas, and Legette to Worthy... Mitchell too if he runs decent... Coleman I'm not sure only because of his separation issues... But I do think he's got great upside... And the way you are thumbs-downing everyone of my posts on Worthy... I get it... You don't like him...lol...I'm not huge on him either... I just think the Bills may be...He's lightning in a bottle if used properly. And they want explosive traits... At least that's what Beane said... We'll see though... Hopefully we get Franklin and all is good... Just gave you the "thumbs down" for fun. I agree about the preferences. 1 1 2 Quote
mrags Posted February 19 Posted February 19 42 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said: I think Worthy will get killed in the NFL if he plays a lot of slot... They'll break him in half... I greatly...greatly prefer Franklin, Thomas, and Legette to Worthy... Mitchell too if he runs decent... Coleman I'm not sure only because of his separation issues... But I do think he's got great upside... And the way you are thumbs-downing everyone of my posts on Worthy... I get it... You don't like him...lol...I'm not huge on him either... I just think the Bills may be...He's lightning in a bottle if used properly. And they want explosive traits... At least that's what Beane said... We'll see though... Hopefully we get Franklin and all is good... How bout Franklin in the 1st and if Worthy is still there in the 2nd take him. Be done with the WR room for a while. That should be enough to spark us moving forward for a few years. Spend some mid to late round picks in the upcoming years. 1 minute ago, Dr. Who said: Just gave you the "thumbs down" for fun. I agree about the preferences. Since you guys are giving thumbs downs, I’d did it for both of you 1 Quote
Dr. Who Posted February 19 Posted February 19 23 minutes ago, mrags said: How bout Franklin in the 1st and if Worthy is still there in the 2nd take him. Be done with the WR room for a while. That should be enough to spark us moving forward for a few years. Spend some mid to late round picks in the upcoming years. Since you guys are giving thumbs downs, I’d did it for both of you It was just a joke, but have fun with that. 1 1 Quote
mrags Posted February 19 Posted February 19 30 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: It was just a joke, but have fun with that. Yes. I’m aware. I was joking as well. 1 1 Quote
Dr. Who Posted February 19 Posted February 19 18 minutes ago, mrags said: Yes. I’m aware. I was joking as well. I'm afraid to respond and start an epidemic of down turned thumbs. Sorry, I missed the witticism. Distracted by a book I am trying to read through on a rare Monday off. Quote
mrags Posted February 19 Posted February 19 19 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: I'm afraid to respond and start an epidemic of down turned thumbs. Sorry, I missed the witticism. Distracted by a book I am trying to read through on a rare Monday off. Haha. What r u reading? Quote
Dr. Who Posted February 19 Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, mrags said: Haha. What r u reading? Volume II of Iain McGilchrist's The Matter with Things. It's really quite brilliant, though hard to categorize. Part neurological science, part philosophy and cultural criticism. Quote
mrags Posted February 19 Posted February 19 1 minute ago, Dr. Who said: Volume II of Iain McGilchrist's The Matter with Things. It's really quite brilliant, though hard to categorize. Part neurological science, part philosophy and cultural criticism. 1 Quote
BillsFanForever19 Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) 4 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: I think Worthy will get killed in the NFL if he plays a lot of slot... They'll break him in half... I think it's the other way around. On the boundary, he's going to get absolutely bullied by bigger CB's who are going to jam him and use their length at the line of scrimmage. There's a reason smaller WR's are used in the slot. They're lined up against usually smaller, weaker CB's and can work the middle of the field. Once they get 5 yards past, they can't be touched until the ball is in their hands anyways. And at that point, they're often being covered by LB's or S's - which are a mismatch for smaller, faster WR's. You mention John Brown as an example. But he was someone taken in Round 3 that had to prove it before he was trusted there. In Round 1, we need to know they can handle it - not just hope they can. 4 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: And the way you are thumbs-downing everyone of my posts on Worthy... I get it... You don't like him...lol... To be fair, it wasn't just Worthy that led to me thumbs downing your last two posts. It was alleging we drafted Shorter to replace Gabe Davis in the WR2 spot for this season, when he was a redshirted in his Rookie year and never saw the field in the Regular Season, in your first post and saying you don't see Worthy as a slot at all, when he played almost half of his snaps last year in the slot, in your second post. 3 hours ago, mrags said: How bout Franklin in the 1st and if Worthy is still there in the 2nd take him. Be done with the WR room for a while. That should be enough to spark us moving forward for a few years. Spend some mid to late round picks in the upcoming years. I've got a number of problems with this. 1.) I don't see any way Worthy is on the board at 60. 2.) With the amount of holes we have on the Defense, we can't afford to not address any other position but WR until Round 3. 3.) We already have Khalil Shakir, Dalton Kincaid, and Deonte Harty (starting to think it's more likely he takes a pay cut than is outright cut) in the slot. So not only are you spending a premium asset on a guy who won't be getting very many reps behind Diggs, Franklin, Shakir, and Kincaid - but you'll have to take one of those guys off the field to put him on. I guess if he's the first guy up at the Slot and Boundary being mixed in when anyone needs a breather, he'll get more reps than say Sherfield or Harty got. But I still don't think that's worth a 2 with the amount of starters we have to replace and the small amount of cap space we'll have to fill those holes. I maintain that we don't go back to WR until Round 4. At best, we trade up from 4 to the bottom of the 3rd after using our 2nd and 3rd elsewhere. But no way do I see us going back to back in Round 1 and Round 2 at WR. If Diggs leaves next year, hopefully either the Round 4 player and/or Justin Shorter has developed and we're set already with Franklin and one of them for years to come. If not, you go and get another guy in next year's Draft or sign a guy when we're in much better shape cap wise and hopefully have nowhere near the amount of holes we have this season. Edited February 19 by BillsFanForever19 Quote
mrags Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said: I think it's the other way around. On the boundary, he's going to get absolutely bullied by bigger CB's who are going to jam him and use their length at the line of scrimmage. There's a reason smaller WR's are used in the slot. They're lined up against usually smaller, weaker CB's and can work the middle of the field. Once they get 5 yards past, they can't be touched until the ball is in their hands anyways. And at that point, they're often being covered by LB's or S's - which are a mismatch for smaller, faster WR's. To be fair, it wasn't just Worthy that led to me thumbs downing your last two posts. It was alleging we drafted Shorter to replace Gabe Davis in the WR2 spot for this season (when he was a redshirted project last year) in the first post and saying you don't see Worthy as a slot at all when he played almost half of his snaps last year in the slot in your second post. I've got a number of problems with this. 1.) I don't see any way Worthy is on the board at 60. 2.) With the amount of holes we have on the Defense, we can't afford to not address any other position but WR until Round 3. 3.) We already have Khalil Shakir, Dalton Kincaid, and Deonte Harty (starting to think it's more likely he takes a pay cut than is outright cut) in the slot. So not only are you spending a premium asset on a guy who won't be getting very many reps behind Diggs, Franklin, Shakir, and Kincaid - but you'll have to take one of those guys off the field to put him on. I guess if he's the first guy up at the Slot and Boundary being mixed in when anyone needs a breather, he'll get more reps than say Sherfield or Harty got. But I still don't think that's worth a 2 with the amount of starters we have to replace and the small amount of cap space we'll have to fill those holes. I maintain that we don't go back to WR until Round 4. If Diggs leaves next year, hopefully either the Round 4 player and/or Justin Shorter has developed and we're set already with Franklin and one of them for years to come. If not, you go and get another guy in next year's Draft or sign a guy when we're in much better shape cap wise. 1. The opinions are there to suggest he’s nothing more than a slot guy. He’s way too small to play on the outside on a regular basis. Regardless of this is actually true or not, it doesn’t take away from the fact that he’s pretty thin and could cost him come draft day. 2. Screw the other holes. We need Allen to have weapons at his disposal now and in the future. It also allows for them to say goodbye to Diggs if they feel the need to after next year. 3. If Harty and his 15 catches for 150 yards is anywhere near this team next year we might as well pack up now. We won’t be winning anything with that mindset. There is no amount of money I would pay the guy for such a lack of effectiveness. He belongs no where near this team. If he’s paid over $50 it’s too much. You could literally pick a kid up at Delta Sonic that dries cars and get 15 catches out of him. However, the point about already having house Diggs, Shakir, Kincaid, and any other WR we would take in RD1 makes sense. My argument is however, you are doubling up. Just because we take a guy at 28 or 2, Doesn’t matter. The fact is they might not pan out. You’re simply doubling your chances. With that being said I’m not saying Worthy is the guy I’d want doing this. But he is an option. And my argument was, IF…. He was there in the 2nd rd, because of his potential, you would be crazy to not take him even if you already got a guy in the 1st. The argument about other positions is a joke imo. They’ve thrown countless draft picks, and FA money at positions on defense. None of it has panned out. They continue to get outscored by Mahomes and that’s all that matters. It’s not on Josh because he can’t keep up offensively. It’s because no matter what we do on defense we still can’t stop them when it matters. My argument is to stop spending so much on it. They are going to score on you anyway. Just give Allen all the weapons he could ask for and keep him happy and throwing TDs. Maybe one of these days we’ll have so much of a lead on Mahomes that he can’t come back. Either way, your HC is a defensive minded coach. If he needs all this help on defense by simply throwing all assets and money at it, why are we dealing with it. He should be able to do more with less. And honestly, he’s proven that he can minus the big games where they matter most. Edited February 19 by mrags 1 Quote
JaCrispy Posted February 19 Posted February 19 23 minutes ago, Buffalo Ballin said: Beane ends up picking the worst one lol Or some guy that runs 4.59 40 😉 1 Quote
Augie Posted February 19 Posted February 19 30 minutes ago, Buffalo Ballin said: Beane ends up picking the worst one lol THAT’S the spirit! 😂 Quote
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