Who are your top 10 QBs in the league

[34-78-83]

Just now, Simon said:

 

I like this one, but I think I'd try to find a way to squeeze Goff in there somehow.

He's been really, really good

Thanks. I really wanted to put him in over Dak, but Dak really does string together some very good games, and can do a little more (not much mind you) off script than Goff. I could be convinced otherwise probably.

[Simon]

1 minute ago, 34-78-83 said:

Thanks. I really wanted to put him in over Dak, but Dak really does string together some very good games, and can do a little more (not much mind you) off script than Goff. I could be convinced otherwise probably.

 

Definitely close, but I probably have some recency bias.

I might be tempted to drop Hurts before Prescott. 

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, Cray51 said:

I think you have to split burrow and allen into a Tier A+, and Jackson and Stroud can sit in A.  Stroud had a great year, but let's see how his sophomore year goes, and Jackson is just simply not a "take over the game" type talent.

Like it or not Jackson has 2 MVPs, which should put him at the top of the group. Now, I still don't think he's an elite passer, which keeps him in line with those that are, but there's no credible argument to put Allen above hima t this point. The only limited argument you'd have for Burrow is 1 Sb appearance, and I'm not sure that does it either.

[Fetou]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

Like it or not Jackson has 2 MVPs, which should put him at the top of the group. Now, I still don't think he's an elite passer, which keeps him in line with those that are, but there's no credible argument to put Allen above hima t this point. The only limited argument you'd have for Burrow is 1 Sb appearance, and I'm not sure that does it either.

I think having eyes would be the main justification 

[Cray51]

28 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Like it or not Jackson has 2 MVPs, which should put him at the top of the group. Now, I still don't think he's an elite passer, which keeps him in line with those that are, but there's no credible argument to put Allen above hima t this point. The only limited argument you'd have for Burrow is 1 Sb appearance, and I'm not sure that does it either.

I think (and it’s my opinion) Burrow can go to any team in the league and be effective.  I think Mahomes can go to any team in the league and be effective.  I think Allen can go to any team in the league and be effective,

 

I don’t think Lamar can go to any team in the league and be effective.  And by effective, I mean elevate that team to a playoff spot.  Lamar does have an mvp, and will likely win a second (although I’ve made the point before, it’s the worst statistical MVP of the last 15 years).  He has a record of 2-4 in the playoffs, with a 56% completion % and 6 picks.  That’s just not good enoug when it counts

[bouds]

Mahomes is in a league of his own.

 

Then Josh.

 

Then I don't really care how you bunch them up, Burrow is up there with Josh when he's healthy.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

@GunnerBillcurious, now after leading his team back from a 7 point deficit in the 4th quarter and pouring rain last week and leading his team back from a 17 point deficit this week to make the SB, has your view of Purdy improved even a little?  
 

 

 

I haven't seen the second half. I went to bed at half time. It will take some time to shift the image of who he was the 3 weeks his three elite players - Williams, Deebo and CMC were all missing. He didn't just look worse he looked like a backup. 

 

I didn't like his performance last week. He threw 3 absolute ducks that should have been intercepted. Green Bay hold any of them its goodnight Vienna. 

 

Will watch the 2nd half from last night later.

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I haven't seen the second half. I went to bed at half time. It will take some time to shift the image of who he was the 3 weeks his three elite players - Williams, Deebo and CMC were all missing. He didn't just look worse he looked like a backup. 

 

I didn't like his performance last week. He threw 3 absolute ducks that should have been intercepted. Green Bay hold any of them its goodnight Vienna. 

 

Will watch the 2nd half from last night later.

I get that’s where you’re coming from, that seems to be the stance of most people critical of him.  
 

But…To be fair, 2 of those guys are among the best, if not the best at their positions and could be in the HOF when their careers end and the other is maybe the most dynamic WR in the NFL.  And all 3 are major parts of the SF offense and game plan.  
 

Most QBs are gonna struggle in that scenario.  Also, in one of those games, despite missing those guys Purdy led a game winning drive that their rookie kicker missed the game winning FG.  
 

And Purdy had still not even played a full season yet too.  Stroud as a sensational rookie had some bad games too.  People forget how young Purdy still is.  To expect essentially a rookie in terms of games played to be great still in his first games without the Niners 3 best players around him is asking more of him than some of the other guys.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I get that’s where you’re coming from, that seems to be the stance of most people critical of him.  
 

But…To be fair, 2 of those guys are among the best, if not the best at their positions and could be in the HOF when their careers end and the other is maybe the most dynamic WR in the NFL.  And all 3 are major parts of the SF offense and game plan.  
 

Most QBs are gonna struggle in that scenario.  Also, in one of those games, despite missing those guys Purdy led a game winning drive that their rookie kicker missed the game winning FG.  
 

And Purdy had still not even played a full season yet too.  Stroud as a sensational rookie had some bad games too.  People forget how young Purdy still is.  To expect essentially a rookie in terms of games played to be great still in his first games without the Niners 3 best players around him is asking more of him than some of the other guys.

 

 

Yea, I'm also just leery of that scheme inflating reality though. It made Jimmy G and Matt Schaub look like franchise QBs. They were not. It made an actual franchise QB - Matt Ryan - look elite. He was not. It isn't a knock on the kid in the sense I think as a Mr Irrelevant, a year and a half in he is as good as prime Jimmy G was - that is a pretty big compliment. That's a serviceable starting Quarterback. 

[RyanC883]

On 1/24/2024 at 7:44 PM, 78thealltimegreat said:

There isn’t a right or wrong answer just was curious as the top 4 seems pretty set in stone

Patrick 

Josh

Lamar 

Joey B

after that you can throw names in a hat Id go 

Matt Stafford

Dak Prescott 

Justin Herbert

Jalen Hurts

Aaron Rogers 

 

 

 

 

 

Allen

Mahomes

 

Big Drop: 

 

Burrow

Rodgers

Herbert

Stroud 

Goff (in good weather) 

Stafford

Hurts

Lawrence 

Edited January 29 by RyanC883

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea, I'm also just leery of that scheme inflating reality though. It made Jimmy G and Matt Schaub look like franchise QBs. They were not. It made an actual franchise QB - Matt Ryan - look elite. He was not. It isn't a knock on the kid in the sense I think as a Mr Irrelevant, a year and a half in he is as good as prime Jimmy G was - that is a pretty big compliment. That's a serviceable starting Quarterback. 

 

Thanks for reply bud...I get you are not sold on Purdy yet, which is totally fair...but comparing him to "Prime Jimmy G" and claiming Jimmy G looked like a franchise QB is puzzling to me and I have no idea where you are getting that from.  For example, when was "Prime Jimmy G" an MVP candidate avg 9.6 ypa, leading the NFL in passer rating, QBR, and leading or top 5 in many other passing categories?  "Prime Jimmy G" once won a playoff game throwing like 3 passes because Kyle didn't want him touching the ball.  

 

Honestly Jimmy G never looked like a franchise QB and never approached the level of play Purdy has, never reached 4000 yards his best season he had 27 TD's.    Jimmy G in his best season as a pro was a game manager, Purdy in his first full season is an MVP finalist.  The Niners were undefeated under Purdy last year and averaged 11 PPG more than they did with Jimmy G.  The offense substantially benefited from the significant improvement Purdy brought to pocket awareness, pocket movement, and poise over Jimmy G who has some of the worst pocket awareness and movement amongst starters in the NFL.  Kittle even became a real weapon again under Purdy where he had to be an extra blocker more often under Jimmy G to try and buy him more time because he needed the help.  

 

Don't get your points on Schaub or Ryan either.  One I am pretty sure you never saw prime Matt Schaub play because that was before when you told you me you started watching the NFL.  He was a pretty good QB, and he showed that potential the year before Kyle became OC and continued that level play when Kyle left shortly after.  Schaub's biggest issue post Kyle was he had some seasons where he missed chunks of games from injuries, but he was still mostly the same QB with and without Kyle when he was healthy.

 

And Ryan was very good before Kyle and remained very good after Kyle who was just there 2 seasons.  In fact, Ryan practically replicated his MVP season in 2018 two years after Kyle left Atlanta.  So to credit Kyle with Ryans success is just not accurate. 

 

Truth is, Shannahan first place to find and develop a QB was SF and he flamed out on every QB in SF before Purdy, including Jimmy G and a kid they invested 3 first round picks into.  They paid Jimmy G as if he was a franchise QB just to see him be more of a liability and a mediocre game manager never to break 4000 yards.  His poor pocket awareness and movement are probably a big reason why he struggled to stay healthy too leaving him only breaking 3000 yards even as a passer just twice in his career.

 

Its too early to know how Purdy's career finishes...but his first season and a half has been so much better than what Jimmy G was for 6 seasons in SF and really is probably the only true QB success story you can fully attribute to Shannahan.  

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thanks for reply bud...I get you are not sold on Purdy yet, which is totally fair...but comparing him to "Prime Jimmy G" and claiming Jimmy G looked like a franchise QB is puzzling to me and I have no idea where you are getting that from.  For example, when was "Prime Jimmy G" an MVP candidate avg 9.6 ypa, leading the NFL in passer rating, QBR, and leading or top 5 in many other passing categories?  "Prime Jimmy G" once won a playoff game throwing like 3 passes because Kyle didn't want him touching the ball.  

 

Honestly Jimmy G never looked like a franchise QB and never approached the level of play Purdy has, never reached 4000 yards his best season he had 27 TD's.    Jimmy G in his best season as a pro was a game manager, Purdy in his first full season is an MVP finalist.  The Niners were undefeated under Purdy last year and averaged 11 PPG more than they did with Jimmy G.  The offense substantially benefited from the significant improvement Purdy brought to pocket awareness, pocket movement, and poise over Jimmy G who has some of the worst pocket awareness and movement amongst starters in the NFL.  Kittle even became a real weapon again under Purdy where he had to be an extra blocker more often under Jimmy G to try and buy him more time because he needed the help.  

 

Don't get your points on Schaub or Ryan either.  One I am pretty sure you never saw prime Matt Schaub play because that was before when you told you me you started watching the NFL.  He was a pretty good QB, and he showed that potential the year before Kyle became OC and continued that level play when Kyle left shortly after.  Schaub's biggest issue post Kyle was he had some seasons where he missed chunks of games from injuries, but he was still mostly the same QB with and without Kyle when he was healthy.

 

And Ryan was very good before Kyle and remained very good after Kyle who was just there 2 seasons.  In fact, Ryan practically replicated his MVP season in 2018 two years after Kyle left Atlanta.  So to credit Kyle with Ryans success is just not accurate. 

 

Truth is, Shannahan first place to find and develop a QB was SF and he flamed out on every QB in SF before Purdy, including Jimmy G and a kid they invested 3 first round picks into.  They paid Jimmy G as if he was a franchise QB just to see him be more of a liability and a mediocre game manager never to break 4000 yards.  His poor pocket awareness and movement are probably a big reason why he struggled to stay healthy too leaving him only breaking 3000 yards even as a passer just twice in his career.

 

Its too early to know how Purdy's career finishes...but his first season and a half has been so much better than what Jimmy G was for 6 seasons in SF and really is probably the only true QB success story you can fully attribute to Shannahan.  

 

Nah I started watching the NFL in 2002 and watching it really religiously from 2007.  Matt Schaub was a game manager (to believe otherwise you have to believe he fell off a cliff at 31 once the influence of Shanhan and Kubiak was removed) Jimmy G was a game manager. They were both made to look better by the system. 

 

Matt Ryan was a very good Quarterback. A top 10 guy. But he was made to look elite in that system and he was not elite. 

 

I think Brock is a good Quarterback. He has proven he can play in the NFL. But he is on a really good team with loads of talent and a scheme with a history of elevating Quarterbacks. And through the Green Bay game and the first half last night I was not particularly impressed. As I say I haven't seen the 2nd half.

 

[Alphadawg7]

46 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah I started watching the NFL in 2002 and watching it really religiously from 2007.  Matt Schaub was a game manager (to believe otherwise you have to believe he fell off a cliff at 31 once the influence of Shanhan and Kubiak was removed) Jimmy G was a game manager. They were both made to look better by the system. 

 

Matt Ryan was a very good Quarterback. A top 10 guy. But he was made to look elite in that system and he was not elite. 

 

I think Brock is a good Quarterback. He has proven he can play in the NFL. But he is on a really good team with loads of talent and a scheme with a history of elevating Quarterbacks. And through the Green Bay game and the first half last night I was not particularly impressed. As I say I haven't seen the 2nd half.

 

 

Good convo...very much enjoying the discussion.  But I gotta ask, what history does Shannahan have of elevating QB's?  I just don't get this myth about him.  Ryan had equivalent seasons to his MVP year without Kyle who had nothing to do with Ryans development or career success.  Schaub earned the starting job before Kyle was the OC and it was Kubiak who got all the praise and credit for Schaub and his development that started before Kyle was OC and remained after Kyle left.  

 

Kyle was a bust in Washington and Cleveland before landing an easy gig with a top 10, probably top 5 QB at the time in Ryan with a loaded offense where he was for only 2 seasons before moving on to SF.  Rodgers won an MVP with Hackett, I think we can agree that it doesn't mean Hacketts system makes all QB's look good.

 

Since becoming HC in 2017 in SF the QB position has been a disaster and seen as the sole reason they don't have multiple SB titles right now.  They passed up drafting Mahomes, Watson, Lamar to roll with guys like Nick Mullens and CJ Bethard.  They passed up signing Tom Brady, Geno Smith (multiple times) or trading for Stafford all to keep Jimmy G who was hurt every one of his 6 years in SF but one.  The only QB they took a swing on was Lance who they spent 3 first round picks on and Kyle couldn't develop him enough to even compete with Mr. Irrelevant Purdy.  He has done such a bad job finding QB talent in 7 years in SF, that people actually said Sam Darnold was the most talented one he has had since arriving in SF and could win the starting job over Trey and Purdy this year.  

 

Shannahan gets way way way too much credit for "Schaub and Ryan" and some how gets a pass on all the failures he has had at QB at every other stop, especially SF.

 

And while it's fair to say those parts of the last 2 games were not Purdy's best, he still led comebacks in two huge playoff games on the biggest stage that led his team to the Super Bowl.  Something 30 other QB's didn't do.  And honestly, if people are gonna do that with Purdy and say "well he wasn't very good in parts of 2 games" that he won, then that needs to be done with every QB because all of them had parts of games or whole games where they didn't play well.    

 

For me, I just feel like if Purdy had been a first round pick and was exactly the same person he is now, they would be saying he is the next best thing.  But because he was the last pick in the draft, people are saying it must be Shannahans system that "makes all QB's look good"...except of course for every SF QB that has stepped on the field since 2017 not named Purdy.

[billsbackto81]

4 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

 

 

Allen

Mahomes

 

Big Drop: 

 

Burrow

Rodgers

Herbert

Stroud 

Goff (in good weather) 

Stafford

Hurts

Lawrence 

I see it this way as well but I'm not putting Josh over Mahomes. I might put Stroud over Herbert and replace Lawrence with Love who I would place over Hurts.

Edited January 29 by billsbackto81

[Logic]

The "tiers" guys have it right, in my opinion:

On his own planet:
Pat Mahomes

Not far off from planet Mahomes, but needs some rings and trophies to get there:
Josh Allen

-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Bona fide franchise QBs:
Joe Burrow
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Aaron Rodgers (until further notice)
Matthew Stafford


Very good QBs, but you could upgrade:
Dak Prescott
Kirk Cousins
Jared Goff


That's 10.

Jury is still out on CJ Stroud, Jordan Love, Trevor Lawrence, and even Anthony Richardson. A big 2024 could catapult any of them into the top 10, especially (and most easily) CJ Stroud. We've seen lots of QBs have great rookie seasons and then be unable to replicate in their sophomore years, though, so I can't include nay of them in the top 10 until they have a good follow-up year.

I do not currently count Tua or Hurts among my top 10 based on their play down the stretch of the 2023 season and in the playoffs.

 

[zow2]

Assuming all are 100% healthy in this list.

 

Mahomes

Allen

Burrow

Stafford

Purdy

Goff

Hurts

Lamar

Herbert

Cousins

 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Good convo...very much enjoying the discussion.  But I gotta ask, what history does Shannahan have of elevating QB's?  I just don't get this myth about him.  Ryan had equivalent seasons to his MVP year without Kyle who had nothing to do with Ryans development or career success.  Schaub earned the starting job before Kyle was the OC and it was Kubiak who got all the praise and credit for Schaub and his development that started before Kyle was OC and remained after Kyle left.  

 

Kyle was a bust in Washington and Cleveland before landing an easy gig with a top 10, probably top 5 QB at the time in Ryan with a loaded offense where he was for only 2 seasons before moving on to SF.  Rodgers won an MVP with Hackett, I think we can agree that it doesn't mean Hacketts system makes all QB's look good.

 

Since becoming HC in 2017 in SF the QB position has been a disaster and seen as the sole reason they don't have multiple SB titles right now.  They passed up drafting Mahomes, Watson, Lamar to roll with guys like Nick Mullens and CJ Bethard.  They passed up signing Tom Brady, Geno Smith (multiple times) or trading for Stafford all to keep Jimmy G who was hurt every one of his 6 years in SF but one.  The only QB they took a swing on was Lance who they spent 3 first round picks on and Kyle couldn't develop him enough to even compete with Mr. Irrelevant Purdy.  He has done such a bad job finding QB talent in 7 years in SF, that people actually said Sam Darnold was the most talented one he has had since arriving in SF and could win the starting job over Trey and Purdy this year.  

 

Shannahan gets way way way too much credit for "Schaub and Ryan" and some how gets a pass on all the failures he has had at QB at every other stop, especially SF.

 

And while it's fair to say those parts of the last 2 games were not Purdy's best, he still led comebacks in two huge playoff games on the biggest stage that led his team to the Super Bowl.  Something 30 other QB's didn't do.  And honestly, if people are gonna do that with Purdy and say "well he wasn't very good in parts of 2 games" that he won, then that needs to be done with every QB because all of them had parts of games or whole games where they didn't play well.    

 

For me, I just feel like if Purdy had been a first round pick and was exactly the same person he is now, they would be saying he is the next best thing.  But because he was the last pick in the draft, people are saying it must be Shannahans system that "makes all QB's look good"...except of course for every SF QB that has stepped on the field since 2017 not named Purdy.

Shanny has the rep of making limited QB's look good because he's made limited QB's look good.

 

CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens wouldn't even be in the league without their Shanny years imo

 

IIRC, Jimmy G's numbers after the CMC trade and Purdy's numbers are near identical.

 

Brock is a top 15ish QB right now. But Shanny's system has him looking like the MVP.  That's why he gets so much credit/

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Shanny has the rep of making limited QB's look good because he's made limited QB's look good.

 

CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens wouldn't even be in the league without their Shanny years imo

 

IIRC, Jimmy G's numbers after the CMC trade and Purdy's numbers are near identical.

 

Brock is a top 15ish QB right now. But Shanny's system has him looking like the MVP.  That's why he gets so much credit/

 

Jimmy G and Brock are not even in the same league.  CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens never looked good, I don't get this notion.  And I don't buy they wouldn't be in the league without Shannahan when guys like Nathan Peterman hung around the league.  The CJ Beathards and Nick Mullens of the world hang around the league all the time.

 

And how can you say "he is top 15 guy" but playing at an MVP level because of Shannahan?  There is no Pre-Shannahan period to establish what he is or isn't outside of Shannahan.  All we have seen is him play at an MVP level in his first full season something no other QB in the past 7 years in SF has done or come close to doing.

 

And as I showed before, Kyle and his QB expertise are grossly exaggerated.  He passed on Mahomes, Watson, and Lamar when they badly needed a QB and instead rolled with guys like CJ Bethard and Nick Mullens.  He passed up signing Tom Brady, Geno Smith (3 different seasons), and didn't pull the trigger on Stafford all to stick with Jimmy G.  They invested 3 first rounders into Trey Lance just to have him unseated by Mr. Irrelevant because he couldn't develop him.  Until Purdy came along, his entire tenure in SF since 2017 had been a total failure at QB.

 

His track record with QB's and QB decisions in SF has not been good, and the lack of a QB is why they don't have 2 to 3 SB titles since he got there.  

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Alphadawg7

[34-78-83]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Jimmy G and Brock are not even in the same league.  CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens never looked good, I don't get this notion.  And I don't buy they wouldn't be in the league without Shannahan when guys like Nathan Peterman hung around the league.  The CJ Beathards and Nick Mullens of the world hang around the league all the time.

 

And how can you say "he is top 15 guy" but playing at an MVP level because of Shannahan?  There is no Pre-Shannahan period to establish what he is or isn't outside of Shannahan.  All we have seen is him play at an MVP level in his first full season something no other QB in the past 7 years in SF has done or come close to doing.

 

And as I showed before, Kyle and his QB expertise are grossly exaggerated.  He passed on Mahomes, Watson, and Lamar when they badly needed a QB and instead rolled with guys like CJ Bethard and Nick Mullens.  He passed up signing Tom Brady, Geno Smith (3 different seasons), and didn't pull the trigger on Stafford all to stick with Jimmy G.  They invested 3 first rounders into Trey Lance just to have him unseated by Mr. Irrelevant because he couldn't develop him.  Until Purdy came along, his entire tenure in SF since 2017 had been a total failure at QB.

 

His track record with QB's and QB decisions in SF has not been good, and the lack of a QB is why they don't have 2 to 3 SB titles since he got there.  

 

 

 

He has certainly not shown to be good at selecting QB's, nor grooming or developing them. BUT, and this is what I believe Firechans is saying, Shannahan's offensive scheme makes average, or limited QB's look better than they actually are. He needs a QB who's fairly cerebral and can operate under strict timing constraints. If they have those traits, they can thrive in a Shannahan scheme. In no world is Brock close to the elite QB's in the NFL. And that's ok, because heck, they're still in the super bowl!

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 1/24/2024 at 7:44 PM, 78thealltimegreat said:

There isn’t a right or wrong answer just was curious as the top 4 seems pretty set in stone

Patrick 

Josh

Lamar 

Joey B

after that you can throw names in a hat Id go 

Matt Stafford

Dak Prescott 

Justin Herbert

Jalen Hurts

Aaron Rogers 

 

 

Dak Prescott 😂

22 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I like this one, but I think I'd try to find a way to squeeze Goff in there somehow.

He's been really, really good

Goff gets disrespected way too much.