Who are your top 10 QBs in the league

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Okay so you agree that Mahomes was elite in that Super Bowl? 

 

For sure. My point is that if he was on the Bills it wouldn't matter. Which is what the conversation was about...

[FireChans]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

For sure. My point is that if he was on the Bills it wouldn't matter. Which is what the conversation was about...

I don’t really think that’s the case.

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I don’t really think that’s the case.

 

And yet you inadvertently agreed with my point about the single game QB production, and haven't tried to dispute anything else I said in that post.

 

I get it. Most people are results-based thinkers. It takes a lot of brain power to look beyond the final result and evaluate the individual components.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I get it. Most people are results-based thinkers. It takes a lot of brain power to look beyond the final result and evaluate the individual components.

 

I agree most people are but I think this is slightly ironic given I think it is largely what people are doing re. the Head Coach. 

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And yet you inadvertently agreed with my point about the single game QB production, and haven't tried to dispute anything else I said in that post.

 

I get it. Most people are results-based thinkers. It takes a lot of brain power to look beyond the final result and evaluate the individual components.

You are literally making up hypotheticals to discredit how good Mahomes is. After they beat us in the playoffs. Again. With a team everyone, including Bills fans, though was garbage.

 

 

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And yet you inadvertently agreed with my point about the single game QB production, and haven't tried to dispute anything else I said in that post.

 

I get it. Most people are results-based thinkers. It takes a lot of brain power to look beyond the final result and evaluate the individual components.

I’m on my phone now, it’s hard to respond individually.

[HappyDays]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree most people are but I think this is slightly ironic given I think it is largely what people are doing re. the Head Coach. 

 

I'll admit it's hard to objectively evaluate head coaches. It's not like players where there are clear stats to look at, and it can be hard to differentiate between when a play fails because of a player versus when a play fails because of a coach. Still I try to take the individual components into account when I evaluate McDermott. I don't think he is a bad coach, I just question if he is a top 5 coach which is likely what you need to win a Super Bowl.

[C.Biscuit97]

21 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Herbert is the opposite of Allen, in the sense that people over-compensate for his shortcomings by blaming those around him. 
 

Very good QB.   Elite talent.  But something is missing in him, along with the issues around him.  
 

If anyone can change that, it would be Harbaugh though. 

One of the knocks on Herbert is he’s very introverted. I also think the Chargers talent gets way overrated. Williams is always hurt, Allen gets hurt a ton, eckler isn’t a great between the tackles runner, defense has big names that are soft. 
 

but you’re right that Harbaugh will get the most of our them. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'll admit it's hard to objectively evaluate head coaches. It's not like players where there are clear stats to look at, and it can be hard to differentiate between when a play fails because of a player versus when a play fails because of a coach. Still I try to take the individual components into account when I evaluate McDermott. I don't think he is a bad coach, I just question if he is a top 5 coach which is likely what you need to win a Super Bowl.

Thoroughly disagree with this.

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You are literally making up hypotheticals to discredit how good Mahomes is.

 

What hypothetical did I make up? The exact game scripts that I pulled for the Chiefs playoff run last year? Those aren't hypotheticals. They really happened. I think if people are honest with themselves they'll admit that those exact game scripts performed by Allen on the Bills would lead to a loss in at least one of those three games. So what separates the QBs in terms of their legacy and accolades is not just QB play. It is mostly to do with the situations around them.

 

I find it weird that I get any pushback on this concept. Everybody here knows QBs are responsible for at most 50% of the game's outcome, right? So when you're talking about an elite QB versus a replacement level QB the elite QB will almost always win. But elite versus elite, it comes down to every other factor.

[Success]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Thoroughly disagree with this.

 

Really?

I've always seen the playoffs as kind of a "coach filter."  It's rare that a mediocre coach wins a SB.  

 

Most SB champs have pretty historically great coaches.

 

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'll admit it's hard to objectively evaluate head coaches. It's not like players where there are clear stats to look at, and it can be hard to differentiate between when a play fails because of a player versus when a play fails because of a coach. Still I try to take the individual components into account when I evaluate McDermott. I don't think he is a bad coach, I just question if he is a top 5 coach which is likely what you need to win a Super Bowl.

By every single stat (which I agree aren’t perfect), he has been a top 5 coach the last five years. 2nd in wins, 1st in points give up. That’s a hell of a resume.

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

What hypothetical did I make up? The exact game scripts that I pulled for the Chiefs playoff run last year? Those aren't hypotheticals. They really happened. I think if people are honest with themselves they'll admit that those exact game scripts performed by Allen on the Bills would lead to a loss in at least one of those three games. So what separates the QBs in terms of their legacy and accolades is not just QB play. It is mostly to do with the situations around them.

 

I find it weird that I get any pushback on this concept. Everybody here knows QBs are responsible for at most 50% of the game's outcome, right? So when you're talking about an elite QB versus a replacement level QB the elite QB will almost always win. But elite versus elite, it comes down to every other factor.

You’re like pretend f every game is the same and flows the same way. They don’t. 
 

the anti Lamar (which there are a lot on this board) kill him for his lack of monster stats. They kill teams in the first half and don’t need to throw the ball in the second half. It’s like the Bills against the Cowboys. 
 

every game has its own story. So you can’t just blindly say this player would do this in this game because they did that in this game. It’s kinda crazy. 
 

mahomes is the goat and it’s not a knock again Allen, who’s amazing n his own right. Only Bills fans would attempt to argue this. Let’s take our medicine, reload, and be them next year. 

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You are literally making up hypotheticals to discredit how good Mahomes is.

 

Also I want to mention I'm not discrediting how great Mahomes is at all. He is still the most responsible individual in the Chiefs organization for their results over the past 5 years. I just hate that in these conversations of Allen vs Mahomes it always comes down to Mahomes' Super Bowls. Like I said before, I get it. It is hard to break down results to more than just the result. But looking at the Chiefs and Bills over the past three seasons, I think it is plainly obvious that the QBs have been about equal while the totality of other players and coaches heavily favors the Chiefs.

 

12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re like pretend f every game is the same and flows the same way. They don’t. 

 

Do you believe Mahomes in last year's playoffs performed measurably better (not even in statistics, just in general his actual play on the field) than Allen did in the 2022 or this year's playoffs?

 

Do you believe the Bills would beat the Joe Burrow Bengals if Allen at any point in the game led his offense to 4 consecutive drives with just 3 total points scored (which came off of a short field) one of which ended in a turnover at midfield?

 

Edited January 26 by HappyDays

[FilthyBeast]

For now it's still obviously Mahomes in his own league then everyone else.

 

And as much as some fans on this forum will hate it or not agree, still think a healthy Joe Burrow is the clear cut #2 QB in the NFL. I think Lamar makes a strong case though for overtaking him if he beats Mahomes this weekend, win it all and then there's probably a real debate about him being the clear cut #2 over Burrow.

 

Allen definitely top 5 regardless though.

[FireChans]

32 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Really?

I've always seen the playoffs as kind of a "coach filter."  It's rare that a mediocre coach wins a SB.  

 

Most SB champs have pretty historically great coaches.

 

Meh, Arians was a “not good enough” HC until he wasn’t. Doug Pederson quickly went from great coach to good coach to maybe fired coach. Harbaugh and Tomlin can barely win playoff games now. Even BB, the GOAT, has looked pretty mortal (although he’s old.)

 

Everyone has Shanny in their top 5 and the guy hasn’t even won a Super Bowl.

Edited January 26 by FireChans

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

As an aside, Mahomes in the postseason, when his defense allows 20+ points.

 

10-3

 

Josh Allen in the postseason when his defense allows more than 20 points.

 

2-5.

 

It’s joever.

There's a pretty simple explanation for this.  Reid attacks when his defense is bad because he has an elite QB that he puts his trust in.  McD on the other hand retreats and demands that Allen & the OC button up the hatches and hunker down. Run clock and protect the defense.  Reid embraces the shootout in these situations and McD embraces a bunker down mentality.  Both the Houston and 2020 KC championship game were examples of this.  Remember those 2 FG's instead of attempted TD's (4th & goal from the 2 and 4th & 3 from the 8 yrd line) against the Chiefs in the Championship game?

 

In the one playoff game they unleashed Allen and embraced the shootout in the 4th quarter of the 2021 playoff game Allen led the Bills to a 3 point lead with 13 seconds left.  Only the extreme incompetence of McD and the defense allowed KC to win that shootout.

 

 

Edited January 27 by CincyBillsFan

[78thealltimegreat]

3 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

For now it's still obviously Mahomes in his own league then everyone else.

 

And as much as some fans on this forum will hate it or not agree, still think a healthy Joe Burrow is the clear cut #2 QB in the NFL. I think Lamar makes a strong case though for overtaking him if he beats Mahomes this weekend, win it all and then there's probably a real debate about him being the clear cut #2 over Burrow.

 

Allen definitely top 5 regardless though.

Burrow hasnt even been able to finish 2 of his 5 seasons and Cincy was still winning games. If Allen ever went down for any length of time the Bills wouldn’t win a game.  

[SaulGoodman]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:11 PM, FireChans said:

Mahomes brought one of the worst defenses in the NFL to the AFCCG. Josh Allen has had a top 5 defense every year but one, and ironically that was the year he got to the AFCCG.

Yep. I’ll never understand the narrative that Mahomes has had everything and Allen’s had nothing. 
 

In Mahomes’ first year, he had arguably the worst defense in the league. Until this year, he’s never had an above average defense. He’s rarely been supported by a good running game and they’ve generally been very one-dimensional on offense. For a few years, KC had the worst interior run blocking in the NFL. 3rd string OL in 2020, and mediocre/poor tackle play at times the last few years. 
 

Allen’s had top defenses every year, one of the best receivers in the game for several years, good TEs (two good ones currently), a good LT and decent line, decent RBs (very solid one this year)…I wouldn’t say the cupboard has been bare. 

[SaulGoodman]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:09 PM, Success said:

 

Not a chance, imo.

 

Allen has been undone by coaching, and the team in general.  He carries the Bills - it's a one man show at times, and it was on Sunday.

 

Mahomes has rarely carried his team the same way.  Mahomes wouldn't have a ring here.  And Allen for sure would have at least one in KC.

 

In a game last year, Mahomes had 509 yds and accounted for all but 14 of the team’s yards. He won the AFC title game with Skyy Moore, MVS and a practice squad WR. Had one of his best games without Kelce or Hill vs a pretty good Pitt D a few years ago (top receivers were Pringle, Darrel Williams, Derrick Gore and Hardman). Beat Denver on the road in his first career start, surrounded by scrub backups. And he’s rarely been supported by good defense. Even last week, his defense failed most of the night. 
 

To say he can’t carry a team is crazy. 

[Alphadawg7]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:54 PM, MrEpsYtown said:

I think its tiers…
 

Josh Lamar Mahomes and Burrow are their own tier imo.

 

Then it’s Herbert (he’s close to those guys and will get there with Harbaugh)

 

Then its guys like Hurts, Stafford, Dak…Goff had a great year. 

 

Then young guys who are on their way, Lawrence, Stroud, Love

 

Then its mid Tua, Purdy, Baker Mayfield…

 

And old guys who were elite Rodgers, Wilson. 
 

And old guys who were meh Carr, Cousins etc.

 

All my opinions. 

 

Agree that tiers are a good way to do it, but couple issues in your tiers.

 

Lawrence is the most over rated player in the NFL, he just isn't that good and you have guys better than him ranked with or below him.  Tua, Purdy, and Stroud all better than him.

Stroud is already better than the guys you have him in tier with and he is a tier too low.

Purdy is better than he gets credit for and he is 2 tiers too low.  

 

Tier 1 - Mahomes, Josh, Lamar, Burrow

Tier 2 - Herbert,, Purdy, Dak, Stroud, Stafford

Tier 3 - Love, Tua, Hurts, Goff, Rodgers (can't drop him too low until we actually see him fall off a cliff...he might still be Tier 1 or 2 when he plays again even)

Tier 4 - Cousins, Lawrence, Baker

Tier 5 - Everyone else and below.

 

To answer the OP question:  Top 10 for me is:

1. Mahomes
2. Allen
3. Burrow
4. Lamar
5. Herbert
6. Stafford
7. Stroud
8. Purdy
9. Dak
10. Tua

Stroud and Purdy have limited sample sizes, but I am basing this on who was top 10 this season, not top 10 careers.  And Purdy led the NFL in a lot of passing categories and Stroud really had a pretty sensational rookie season.  To be honest, I almost moved Stafford to 8 to so I could move both Stroud and Purdy one spot higher each.  

 

A case can be made to move both Dak and Tua up based on stats, but those stats lose value for me when you weigh how much better their stats were at home when facing bad defenses and teams compared to winning teams and/or on the road.  These guys just don't get it done or put the stats up unless the matchup conditions  are easy, so those year end totals on stats become less impressive for me.  The guys ahead of them have all shown they can beat good teams too, not just the bad ones.  

Edited January 28 by Alphadawg7