Free Safety options already on our roster... or do you really think it should be in the draft?

[Aussie Joe]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The free agent I can see them targeting is Kamren Curl of the Commanders. Former 7th rounder out of Arkansas, has played in a similar defense in Washington, is a genuine multi-functional safety who has played in the box and deep centre field which allows them to carry on doing a lot of the disguise they have done with Hyde and Poyer. 

 

Spotrac has him at $15.8m AAV. If he genuinely gets that much he is probably out of our price range, but I think it is a tad high. I can see him in that $12m range. Draft a guy in the 3rd or 4th, let Curl and Poyer play, bring that guy along so he steps in for 2025. 

Paying a Safety $12m with the other needs on this team would make me ill…

 

Doubt Beane does it though …

 

 

Edited January 25 by Aussie Joe

[Dunkirk Donski]

18 hours ago, noacls said:

If Iowa kid is there he is pick at 28. McD dream player

Only if he wrestled for Tom 

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

White will have to be moved on for Cap Space. He has an out in his contract this offseason that we have to exercise. We simply cannot pay him the contract we signed him to before his ACL and Achilles injuries back to back.

 

He's a 16.4m cap hit this season and a 16.7m cap hit next season. We can get out from under it this offseason and with the condition he's in and our cap situation, we really don't have a choice.

 

So that leaves Douglas and Benford as our Starters. Taron in the Nickel. Elam as a backup on the outside.  Dane and Cam Lewis are FA's - White and Neal will be cap casualties. We'll have to get some depth underneath Douglas, Benford, Johnson, and Elam as is. 

 

Safety will be fine. Hyde will probably retire and even if he doesn't, he won't be playing here. Poyer will probably be here another year to help bring along a Rookie in Round 2 or 3. Or we sign a guy they like who doesn't break the bank, being a Safety. The position will not "languish".

 

It'll be fine. But one things for sure, we won't be moving a CB. Makes no sense and there's no guarantee they can even play the position or even want to anyways.

 

Like any other position, we have a hole and we'll fill it through the Draft or FA.

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

[MrEpsYtown]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

 

I did think he was out, but I've kind of changed my mind. I do not think they are going to be willing to let him go until they know for sure that he can't play anymore. So I think they take the hit in 2024 and then if he's bad they cut him with a minimum dead cap in 2025.  

[BBFL]

20 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Douglas is a possibility. Packers flirted with the idea. Depends on can White play.

 

I think Po could move into Hyde’s role, they were interchangeable. Then sign Jeremy Chinn as that box safety.

 

 

Good call. If Chinn repeated the season prior I feel he’d have been out of the price range. He didn’t. Probably around the $9-12m range. 
 

Should have gone all out for Jessie Bates 3 last off season. 

43 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

Do you think he goes with an injury settlement?

 

The restructure is happening. 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Uh, yeah.  This is EXACTLY why he should be a safety.   Hyde and Poyer play all over field because they do all of what you said.  

 

Before Taron arrived, the Bills never thought of moving Hde or Poyer to slot corner.  Why not?  Because safety is a more important position.  

 

Have you ever seen a team draft a slot corner in the first round?  I don't think so.  But teams take safeties in the first round.  Why one and not the other?  Because safety is a more important position.

 

 

 

Look, what I like about the proposal is that Taron is one of the 2 or 3 best players on the D right now and it ensures that he's always on the field.  The problem is as I see it is that from what I understand from others who know a heckuva lot more than I do about football, Taron Johnson play specifically at slot corner has been absolutely critical to McDermott's D.  And maybe moreso than the Safeties.

 

So if McDermott's D requires a high level nickel CB, that creates the problem I was talking about in the OP in terms of creating one hole while filling another.

 

That said, if McDermott were to come into next season with some flexibility to change his Defense and Dorian Williams can make a year 1 to year 2 leap the same way Terrell Bernard did and the idea was just to "put your best 11 on the field," then maybe Taron shifts to Safety and McDermott shifts to more of a base Defense with 3 LBs since all 3 of those LBs would be athletic freaks with coverage ability.

 

I just don't think they're going to move Taron, though.

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I put my list elsewhere earlier in the week but basically at this stage I have it Harrison, Odunze, Nabers tier 1. Then Legette, Franklin, Thomas tier 2. Then Worthy, Mitchell, Coleman tier 3.

 

Where is your list?

[transplantbillsfan]

12 minutes ago, BBFL said:

Do you think he goes with an injury settlement?

 

The restructure is happening. 

 

Yes, restructure is almost certain.

 

No, I don't think he goes with an injury settlement.

[BBFL]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Yes, restructure is almost certain.

 

No, I don't think he goes with an injury settlement.

That’s where I’m leaning at too. Especially giving it negates a load of money for him instead of restructuring. 
 

That is the only option. No one is trading something of worth for him after 3 years of significant injuries… absolute pipe dream. 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Where is your list?

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/252784-bills-draft-rd-1-pick-28/?do=findComment&comment=8907725

[BillsFanForever19]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completely disagree on White.  I'm not guaranteeing he's with the team, but you underestimate White's meaning to the team and McDermott in particular.  In McDermott's PC he specifically noted how White was HIS first draft pick.  And that's true, because Beane wasn't even with the team, yet.  I could see them asking White to restructure his deal so it looks like a pay cut with incentives, but I don't think it's highly likely we'll just outright cut him.  I don't even know if we're able to do that when he's still injured.  Probably need an injury settlement.

 

I just don't see how a paycut would happen that would make sense for us and White would be okay with. I mean he'd pretty much have to rip up his contract and be paid like a reserve for it to make any sense.

 

If White were a FA, he'd be only offered incentive laden prove it deals. He never fully returned to form following the ACL. He had one game where he looked to be close to his old self. Then the Achilles happened. That's two back to back injuries that causes players to lose a step. And he'll be almost 30 when he returns.

 

I'm not a capologist, but I don't think there's a restructure on his massive deal that can be done that would be worth the risk and the reward. You don't want to bench an ascending young talent like Benford, who is the present and future on one side. And we didn't make the move for Douglas to bench him either. He was traded as White's replacement, in my opinion.

 

They're our Starters going forward. Douglas will most likely get an extension this offseason. Then you still have Taron Johnson as the Nickel and Kaiir Elam, who showed something against Pittsburgh after being injured all year. Even he'll be a reserve. 

 

Our starting CB's are set and we have a solid reserve that we invested a 1st in. White is a complete and total unknown at this point and is being paid like a Top Starting CB. If you remove emotion from the equation - it's really clear. There's a reason Spotrac and capologist has releasing Tre White as one of the first things we'll do.

 

The out in his contract is now. And we have to get out from under it now. Maybe he comes back under an incentive laden deal after he sees the market he has is just that. But we have to move on with an injury settlement and take that money and get a TRUE Safety or one of the many other positions we need a starter at.

 

You're not risking he can't return to form and being stuck paying good money for a position we're already set at, when money is tight and we have a number of positions that aren't set. It's a no brainer. Anyone who says otherwise is just thinking too emotionally.

Edited January 26 by BillsFanForever19

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I just don't see how a paycut would happen that would make sense for us and White would be okay with. I mean he'd pretty much have to rip up his contract and be paid like a reserve for it to make any sense.

 

If White were a FA, he'd be only offered incentive laden prove it deals. He never fully returned to form following the ACL. He had one game where he looked to be close to his old self. Then the Achilles happened. That's two back to back injuries that causes players to lose a step. And he'll be almost 30 when he returns.

 

I'm not a capologist, but I don't think there's a restructure on his massive deal that can be done that would be worth the risk and the reward. You don't want to bench an ascending young talent like Benford, who is the present and future on one side. And we didn't make the move for Douglas to bench him either. He was traded as White's replacement, in my opinion.

 

They're our Starters going forward. Douglas will most likely get an extension this offseason. Then you still have Taron Johnson as the Nickel and Kaiir Elam, who showed something against Pittsburgh after being injured all year. Even he'll be a reserve. 

 

Our starting CB's are set and we have a solid reserve that we invested a 1st in. White is a complete and total unknown at this point and is being paid like a Top Starting CB. If you remove emotion from the equation - it's really clear. There's a reason Spotrac and capologist has releasing Tre White as one of the first things we'll do.

 

The out in his contract is now. And we have to get out from under it now. Maybe he comes back under an incentive laden deal after he sees the market he has is just that. But we have to move on with an injury settlement and take that money and get a TRUE Safety or one of the many other positions we need a starter at.

 

You're not risking he can't return to form and being stuck paying good money for a position we're already set at, when money is tight and we have a number of positions that aren't set. It's a no brainer. Anyone who says otherwise is just thinking too emotionally.

 

Sorry man... emotion is almost undoubtedly part of the equation with Tre.

 

1st draft pick by McDermott. Team leader. Loved by teammates.

 

Emotion is part of the equation because of what he's meant to this franchise.

 

As for your whole dialogue about players not restructuring deals to take pay cuts. Mitch Morse did.

[BillsFanForever19]

14 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Sorry man... emotion is almost undoubtedly part of the equation with Tre.

 

1st draft pick by McDermott. Team leader. Loved by teammates.

 

Emotion is part of the equation because of what he's meant to this franchise.

 

As for your whole dialogue about players not restructuring deals to take pay cuts. Mitch Morse did.

 

Incorrect. Simply being McDermott's first Draft pick and being liked are not reasons to keep a guy in the situation we're in. This is a business. It will be emotional to do it, but you have to. Business comes before personal.

 

If we were in a better position financially or roster wise, maybe we could do a bit of a paycut and risk losing some money. But not only do we not have the money, we need money AND we're in a bad spot roster wise at a lot of different positions.

 

But we are set at CB. So much so that you're pontificating moving someone to Safety. That's not how it's going to work. The guy with the out in his contract is moved out and we use that money this year and next year to get starters, like Safety, where we have holes.

 

As for the restructure, you can only restructure so much. Short of ripping up his contract completely, we can't afford to pay him even half of what he's owed. Logically, it doesn't even make sense. For the uncertainty he provides and when his role on the team, given that uncertainty, is simply a reserve. Others have restructured, but not to the extent that it would take for him staying to feasibly work.

 

White is an unknown commodity at this point. A player who never truly returned to form after the ACL, is now coming off an Achilles tear, and will be almost 30 - having played only 10 games in 2 calendar years by the time he returns. Someone who would have to sign a prove it deal, if he were on the market. The difference between what his contract is now and what his contract should be is too big of a gap for a simple restructure. And the kind of pay cut that would make any sense would be a slap in the face.

 

In the position we're in, we can't afford to be emotional. Part of being a GM is making the difficult decisions. Emotionally, it's tough. But when it comes to business, which this is, we don't have a choice.

 

Everyone who's reviewed our cap situation and come up with what we need to do has Tre White being released. The only one's who say he should stay are fans like yourself who don't want to see him go because of warm fuzzies. That's not how the NFL works.

 

Teammates, coaches, fans, and management loved Jerry Hughes too. Micah Hyde was McDermott's first big signing and has been here just as long as Tre. He won't be here either. Tough decisions just have to be made sometimes.

Edited January 26 by BillsFanForever19

[JerseyBills]

Why convert an elite outside CB to S??

Just makes no sense

[philholbroo]

kyle dugger

xavier mckinnie

 

[transplantbillsfan]

13 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Why convert an elite outside CB to S??

Just makes no sense

 

You talking about Douglas or Benford?  I don't think Benford is an elite outside CB.

 

And it's not like it would be the first time in the NFL a good to elite CB converted to Safety.  See Ronnie Lott, Devin McCourty, and Charles & Rod Woodson (no relation 😛 )

[JerseyBills]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You talking about Douglas or Benford?  I don't think Benford is an elite outside CB.

 

And it's not like it would be the first time in the NFL a good to elite CB converted to Safety.  See Ronnie Lott, Devin McCourty, and Charles & Rod Woodson (no relation 😛 )

Was referring to Douglas but I think Benford is above average, wouldn't mind seeing Elam try just to get him on the field..

You're right but wasn't that when they were 30+?

[Shaw66]

On 1/25/2024 at 2:53 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Look, what I like about the proposal is that Taron is one of the 2 or 3 best players on the D right now and it ensures that he's always on the field.  The problem is as I see it is that from what I understand from others who know a heckuva lot more than I do about football, Taron Johnson play specifically at slot corner has been absolutely critical to McDermott's D.  And maybe moreso than the Safeties.

 

So if McDermott's D requires a high level nickel CB, that creates the problem I was talking about in the OP in terms of creating one hole while filling another.

 

That said, if McDermott were to come into next season with some flexibility to change his Defense and Dorian Williams can make a year 1 to year 2 leap the same way Terrell Bernard did and the idea was just to "put your best 11 on the field," then maybe Taron shifts to Safety and McDermott shifts to more of a base Defense with 3 LBs since all 3 of those LBs would be athletic freaks with coverage ability.

 

I just don't think they're going to move Taron, though.

 

 

I just saw this.  Good stuff.  Thanks. 

 

I'm not predicting Taron will move.  I was only saying he should be on the list. 

 

My guess, however, is that McDermott thinks he can fill the slot corner role more easily than the safety role.  First, it's important to remember that they need two safeties, probably one this year and one next year.  Rapp is the only safety on the team currently who might fill one of the spots, and I'm not sure Rapp is the guy.  Maybe.   

 

The fact that they need two means the team will be changing, which we all knew.  Now, there's no doubt that Johnson's play has been critical to the D, but there's similarly no doubt that the safeties are critical.  I think the safeties are more important, based simply on the fact that the position is harder to fill.   Altho the position is evolving, most teams still have their third best corner at the slot corner position.  As you say, Williams might play there.   If you had Williams and Johnson on the field, when the situation demanded Williams would take the tight end and Johnson would take the slot guy.   

 

I don't, for example, see why people see Benford as a safety.   If I'm moving him, I'm moving HIM to slot corner.   It's much less of a transition for him.  

 

As I said, you don't see teams taking a slot corner in the first round of the draft.   Cover corners, and safeties, yes, slot corners no.   Yes, McDermott has been wedded to the slot corner in his defense, but that's because, I think, it was personnel driven.   The Bills had the safeties covered, Johnson's not a shut-down corner type.   It just turned out that he played so well that the Bills could afford to leave him on the field when other teams would have gone 4-3.   When the Bills get weaker at safety, McDermott's going to change his philosophy.  He's going to do what he always does, which is to put the best TEAM on the field and adjust the defense accordingly.  

 

The guy on the team who is best able to move from his current position is not White, not Benford, not Elam, and the safety is not going to be Neal, or Lewis, or Hamlin.   As I said, maybe Rapp.   The guy who is best able to move is Johnson. JMO

21 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You talking about Douglas or Benford?  I don't think Benford is an elite outside CB.

 

And it's not like it would be the first time in the NFL a good to elite CB converted to Safety.  See Ronnie Lott, Devin McCourty, and Charles & Rod Woodson (no relation 😛 )

I'd say Benford is a near-elite corner in McDermott's system.  He's excellent playing that scheme.   He's a natural.  That's why he walked into a starting position as a rookie.  

 

Elite cover corner?   No.  He's an outstanding #2 corner.  The plan always was White would be the elite guy until Elam took over.   

[BillsFanForever19]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just saw this.  Good stuff.  Thanks. 

 

I'm not predicting Taron will move.  I was only saying he should be on the list. 

 

My guess, however, is that McDermott thinks he can fill the slot corner role more easily than the safety role.  First, it's important to remember that they need two safeties, probably one this year and one next year.  Rapp is the only safety on the team currently who might fill one of the spots, and I'm not sure Rapp is the guy.  Maybe.   

 

The fact that they need two means the team will be changing, which we all knew.  Now, there's no doubt that Johnson's play has been critical to the D, but there's similarly no doubt that the safeties are critical.  I think the safeties are more important, based simply on the fact that the position is harder to fill.   Altho the position is evolving, most teams still have their third best corner at the slot corner position.  As you say, Williams might play there.   If you had Williams and Johnson on the field, when the situation demanded Williams would take the tight end and Johnson would take the slot guy.   

 

I don't, for example, see why people see Benford as a safety.   If I'm moving him, I'm moving HIM to slot corner.   It's much less of a transition for him.  

 

As I said, you don't see teams taking a slot corner in the first round of the draft.   Cover corners, and safeties, yes, slot corners no.   Yes, McDermott has been wedded to the slot corner in his defense, but that's because, I think, it was personnel driven.   The Bills had the safeties covered, Johnson's not a shut-down corner type.   It just turned out that he played so well that the Bills could afford to leave him on the field when other teams would have gone 4-3.   When the Bills get weaker at safety, McDermott's going to change his philosophy.  He's going to do what he always does, which is to put the best TEAM on the field and adjust the defense accordingly.  

 

The guy on the team who is best able to move from his current position is not White, not Benford, not Elam, and the safety is not going to be Neal, or Lewis, or Hamlin.   As I said, maybe Rapp.   The guy who is best able to move is Johnson. JMO

 

Rapp is a Free Agent. So that would take re-signing him. Which I think is a real possibility. I don't see him breaking the bank and he falls in line with the type of player we can afford, given the amount of money we'll have when we dig ourselves out of 43.6m over the cap, and the amount of holes we have to fill. Plus, he has a year under McDermott's system already and at times it felt like we were in better shape with Poyer and Rapp then we were with Poyer and Hyde last year.

 

Taron, like Douglas and Benford, isn't even a remote consideration to be moved. You don't take an All Pro at one position and move them to another. 

 

I'm honestly surprised it's even as close as 62-31 in favor of getting a True Safety over moving someone. No one is going to be moved. We'll draft someone to replace Hyde or sign a true Safety in FA.

 

Cornerbacks don't get moved to Safety unless they're an aging absolute elite CB with the skills to translate like a Patrick Peterson or Troy Vincent, to extend their career. Or a CB who's played Safety before and was Drafted for versatility. You don't take young (especially young and performing well) CB's and just switch them to Safety. That's not how it works and that's 1000% not going to happen here.

[transplantbillsfan]

26 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Was referring to Douglas but I think Benford is above average, wouldn't mind seeing Elam try just to get him on the field..

You're right but wasn't that when they were 30+?

 

Rasul Douglas will be 29 when we kick off next season.

 

What if Elam could finally grasp the CB position enough this offseason to start opposite Benford while simultaneously locking in a starting Free Safety for the next half decade?  We could also give Douglas an Extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money.

[BillsFanForever19]

9 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Rasul Douglas will be 29 when we kick off next season.

 

What if Elam could finally grasp the CB position enough this offseason to start opposite Benford while simultaneously locking in a starting Free Safety for the next half decade?  We could also give Douglas an Extension more appropriate for a Safety than a CB, which would save us some money.

 

My God - this just gets more and more ridiculous.

 

Douglas is our CB1. He was playing at a top PFF level amongst all CB's before his injury. 

 

Not only are you suggesting moving our CB1 to Safety to start Kaiir Elam at CB instead - you're suggesting he would then choose to sign a contract for Safety money instead of CB money?

 

Why would he do that? He and his agent would laugh in our faces, play out his year with us, and go somewhere else and cash in as one of the top CB's on the market next season.