Mix and match Allen/Mahomes and Reid/McDermott

[Augie]

Garanimals. 

 

Mr Potato Head? 

[HappyDays]

53 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

So if Allen is on that level what is holding Buffalo back? I don't believe we can conclude it's the roster.

 

Coaching for sure, but also top end talent on the roster. I'm talking about true game changers. The Chiefs had:

 

Mahomes

Kelce

Jones

Sneed

 

I might consider adding their entire IOL into that group too. Feels wrong to include the individual players, but as a whole they were a game changer.

 

The Bills after Milano went down had:

 

Allen

 

Top end talent and top end coaching is what wins Super Bowls. The Bills had neither. The Chiefs had both. Very simple analysis to be honest.

[McBean]

6 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Allen would have 6 straight afccg appearances and 2 superbowl rings if they switched teams on their draft nights

This

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Coaching for sure, but also top end talent on the roster. I'm talking about true game changers. The Chiefs had:

 

Mahomes

Kelce

Jones

Sneed

 

I might consider adding their entire IOL into that group too. Feels wrong to include the individual players, but as a whole they were a game changer.

 

The Bills after Milano went down had:

 

Allen

 

Top end talent and top end coaching is what wins Super Bowls. The Bills had neither. The Chiefs had both. Very simple analysis to be honest.

Tyreek Hill

Travis Kelsey 

Justin Houston

Marcus Peters

Chris Jones

 

Those game changers only mattered after Mahomes got there. 

[BullBuchanan]

6 hours ago, Lifefan1 said:

After a few days here, I got to thinking. What would happen if the coaches stayed where they are, but Allen and Mahomes switched teams? Or the opposite, the rosters stayed the same, but Reid and McDermott switched places? Which team would be better off? I guess the real question here is: Is what Reid does with the KC offense (creating decisions for the defense that gets players like Kelsey open in tough situations, or getting big runs when needed...) something that is tailored just to Mahomes and his skill set? Or would Allen be just as successful in that offense? Would Mahomes be just as dynamic in Brady's offense here? I guess my real frustration comes from watching teams like the Chiefs get players open in space, when we appear to have so much trouble getting that open space? Is it scheme (from the coaches calling plays), or is it talent (running the plays called)?

Allen would have won Super Bowls and probably an MVP, but he wouldn't have come close to what Mahomes is done.

Physically, they're pretty much equal. Mentally, Mahomes has a significant edge.

Mahomes and the Bills would have beaten Allen and the Chiefs last week, and he definitely beats the Bengals last year.

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Those game changers only mattered after Mahomes got there. 

 

No they didn't? Hill and Kelce were already known as game changers. Hill just had his best season as a pro without Mahomes throwing him the ball. I really have no idea why you would believe this.

 

Game changing players matter more than anything else as far as winning the whole thing. A close 2nd is game changing coaches. The Bills simply don't come close to matching up in either area.

[Mikie2times]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

No they didn't? Hill and Kelce were already known as game changers. Hill just had his best season as a pro without Mahomes throwing him the ball. I really have no idea why you would believe this.

 

Game changing players matter more than anything else as far as winning the whole thing. A close 2nd is game changing coaches. The Bills simply don't come close to matching up in either area.

It's not that I don't believe they impact things. I don't believe when people think they can quantify how much and separate who fits. In the end it can't be done with any degree of accuracy because you can't measure anything you're saying. What we can do is use history to evaluate how coaches performed before and after QB's arrived. At least that has some ability to be measured. Reid went 20 years doing very little with a below average playoff record and no Super Bowls.  Mahomes shows up and now all of a sudden he's the best coach in the NFL. We have already seen this play out with Belichick.  

[90sBills]

Do these pointless hypotheticals make fans feel better about the Bills? Or Allen specifically? I’m sure Allen wants to succeed with this team and its coaching staff. He will continue to be criticized until he does succeed. And that’s a good thing because everyone can see his talent. If he’s like say Baker Mayfield no one would care when he keeps coming up short. So take that as a positive. 

 

As for Mahomes. He’s going to his 6th Conference Championship game in his 6th starting season. No matter how much of a homer you are you’d have to acknowledge that’s incredible. Give the guy his props. It’s ok to congratulate opposing teams’ players. Geez Bills fans. The mental gymnastics some go through just to convince themselves that Allen is the best. If he’s the best there wouldn’t have to be any hypotheticals. It’s a really sad exercise that keeps popping up every few months. Especially after the Bills lose. 

[C.Biscuit97]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No they didn't? Hill and Kelce were already known as game changers. Hill just had his best season as a pro without Mahomes throwing him the ball. I really have no idea why you would believe this.

 

Game changing players matter more than anything else as far as winning the whole thing. A close 2nd is game changing coaches. The Bills simply don't come close to matching up in either area.

Hill hasn’t been on the chiefs in 2 years and they won a SB (PM a mvp) and are in the afc championship game (after eliminating Hill). Mahomes is that dude and it sucks. Their receiving core’s best player is a 2nd round rookie Gabe Davis now. And he still wins, 

 

watch Gabe Davis go to the chiefs, have like 1,300 yards and 12 tds, and bills fans will say it’s because Mahomes has superior weapons. 

[HappyDays]

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Reid went 20 years doing very little with a below average playoff record and no Super Bowls.

 

Reid was known for not being able to finish the job. 5 NFCCG appearances and 1 Super Bowl appearance. He did that with QBs that were not as good as Josh Allen. McDermott with Josh Allen has reached 1 AFCCG. It's not remotely comparable. Even Spagnuolo is a better defensive coach than McDermott. So we have exactly zero coaching advantages over them.

 

You're the one that asked what explains the difference between the Bills and Chiefs over the past few years. I guess you've landed on QB. For me, even if you want to say Mahomes on the whole has been better than Allen, it's pretty obvious that the drop off between the rosters and the drop off between the coaching staffs is much greater than whatever drop off exists between Mahomes and Allen.

 

FWIW I think Allen and Mahomes have alternated who was better than who in each season since 2020. Mahomes was better in 2020 and 2022, Allen was better in 2021 and 2023. It is not enough of a difference in either direction to account for the vast difference in playoff success between the respective franchises.

 

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

watch Gabe Davis go to the chiefs, have like 1,300 yards and 12 tds, and bills fans will say it’s because Mahomes has superior weapons. 

 

Sure, we can make up extremely unlikely scenarios in our head all day. Kelvin Benjamin was with the Chiefs after he left the Bills. He was great there, right? Kadarius Toney really turned it around in KC, yeah? Tyreek Hill fell off the map when he left?

 

I don't know why it is so hard for so many fans to evaluate talent independently. Mahomes is an elite player. So is Allen. You can still watch the players around them and make judgments about their abilities. It's not that complicated.

 

And it figures that the one year the offensive talent around Mahomes is somewhat comparable to the offensive talent around Allen that the Chiefs defense becomes elite. Forget switching QBs in yesterday's game. Just switch the defenses and nothing else and it is plainly obvious who ends up winning the game.

 

Edited January 25 by HappyDays

[Einstein]

6 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Allen would have 6 straight afccg appearances and 2 superbowl rings if they switched teams on their draft nights

 

Ditto.

 

As much as Chiefs fans (and even some ‘fans’ on this forum) refuse to admit, Allen would be everything Mahomes is thought of now, and more, if the roles were switched.

It’s why I don’t care when they throw the whole “you traded Mahomes to us” attempted mocking at me. I think we got an equal, if not better, QB. Plus Tre White.

 

That being said, Mahomes would be successful here as well. Just like Allen.

 

[Mikie2times]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Reid was known for not being able to finish the job. 5 NFCCG appearances and 1 Super Bowl appearance. He did that with QBs that were not as good as Josh Allen. McDermott with Josh Allen has reached 1 AFCCG. It's not remotely comparable. Even Spagnuolo is a better defensive coach than McDermott. So we have exactly zero coaching advantages over them.

 

You're the one that asked what explains the difference between the Bills and Chiefs over the past few years. I guess you've landed on QB. For Me, even if you want to say Mahomes on the whole has been better than Allen, it's pretty obvious that the drop off between the rosters and the drop off between the coaching staffs is much greater than whatever drop off exists between Mahomes and Allen.

 

FWIW I think Allen and Mahomes have alternated who was better than who in each season since 2020. Mahomes was better in 2020 and 2022, Allen was better in 2021 and 2023. It is not enough of a difference in either direction to account for the vast difference in playoff success between the respective franchises.

My position is probably a bit confusing here. I believe Reid is in a similar spot as Belichick with Brady. Good coach? Sure. But he's made out to be the massive game changer. I don't find it coincidental he only got over the hump with Mahomes. I feel Sean is actually a bad coach. Perhaps he is good at some things like culture building but he's bad at so many others.

 

As far as rosters go with these elite QB's, I think as long as the roster is above X history has said that is enough. That both teams are likely good enough at that level. If not, fairly close. At least close enough that I can't or perhaps don't want to debate it. Because then it gets into a individual player conversation and I ask myself did I ever do this with Kelly and Marino or Marino and Elway, etc, etc. The answer being no.  

 

So in my point was, if it's not Allen, which at one point I sort of felt, but no longer do, it's Sean. Could some roster variance be it. Sure, but it gets complicated going down that path. 

Edited January 25 by Mikie2times

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

My position is probably a bit confusing here. I believe Reid is in a similar spot as Belichick with Brady. Good coach? Sure. But he's made out to be the massive game changer. I don't find it coincidental he only got over the hump with Mahomes. I feel Sean is actually a bad coach. Perhaps he is good at some things like culture building but he's bad at so many others.

 

As far as rosters go with these elite QB's, I think as long as the roster is above X history has said that is enough. That both teams are likely good enough at that level. If not, fairly close. At least close enough that I can't or perhaps don't want to debate it. Because then it gets into a individual player conversation and I ask myself did I ever do this with Kelly and Marino or Marino and Elway, etc, etc. The answer being no.  

 

So in my point was, if it's not Allen, which at one point I sort of felt, but no longer do, it's Sean. Could some roster variance be it. Sure, but it gets complicated going down that path. 

 

No offense, but how did you ever think Allen was the problem with this team? That is mindblowing to me

 

[BullBuchanan]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

My position is probably a bit confusing here. I believe Reid is in a similar spot as Belichick with Brady. Good coach? Sure. But he's made out to be the massive game changer. I don't find it coincidental he only got over the hump with Mahomes. I feel Sean is actually a bad coach. Perhaps he is good at some things like culture building but he's bad at so many others.

 

As far as rosters go with these elite QB's, I think as long as the roster is above X history has said that is enough. That both teams are likely good enough at that level. If not, fairly close. At least close enough that I can't or perhaps don't want to debate it. Because then it gets into a individual player conversation and I ask myself did I ever do this with Kelly and Marino or Marino and Elway, etc, etc. The answer being no.  

 

So in my point was, if it's not Allen, which at one point I sort of felt, but no longer do, it's Sean. Could some roster variance be it. Sure, but it gets complicated going down that path. 

Stop it.

Andy Reid dragged Donovan McNabb to 5 straight Conference Championships and a Super Bowl. He turned an Alex Smith led Chiefs team into a powerhouse and perennial playoff team.

If Andy Reid coaches long enough, which he probably won't, Mahomes could give him a legitimate claim to the greatest coach of all time.

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

No offense, but how did you ever think Allen was the problem with this team? That is mindblowing to me

 

I never thought he was the problem. He is the only reason we are where we are. 

5 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Stop it.

Andy Reid dragged Donovan McNabb to 5 straight Conference Championships and a Super Bowl. He turned an Alex Smith led Chiefs team into a powerhouse and perennial playoff team.

If Andy Reid coaches long enough, which he probably won't, Mahomes could give him a legitimate claim to the greatest coach of all time.

Andy Reid went 20 years without winning a Super Bowl. His playoff record was was 11-13. KC drafted Mahomes, since that time he has two Super Bowl wins and is 13-3 in the playoffs.

 

You want me to believe your anecdotal based on nothing story about how the above happened? I bet you still want Sean as HC.  

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

I never thought he was the problem. He is the only reason we are where we are. 

 

 

Apologies. When you wrote “if it's not Allen, which at one point I sort of felt, but no longer do, it's Sean”… I thought you meant you thought Allen was the problem but now think it’s Sean. 

[Lost]

46 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Physically, they're pretty much equal. Mentally, Mahomes has a significant edge.

Mahomes and the Bills would have beaten Allen and the Chiefs last week, and he definitely beats the Bengals last year.

 

While I don't disagree that Mahomes mentally is more steadfast than Allen.   We all know winning breeds confidence and confidence elevates standard of play.   What if it was Allen that was nurtured into a winning organization to begin and went to AFCCG his first season as starter?   If Mahomes started out on a middling team with all new coaching staff and had a bumpy start the first year or two, who knows if his confidence level would have ever elevated to where it is now.  

[C.Biscuit97]

23 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Reid was known for not being able to finish the job. 5 NFCCG appearances and 1 Super Bowl appearance. He did that with QBs that were not as good as Josh Allen. McDermott with Josh Allen has reached 1 AFCCG. It's not remotely comparable. Even Spagnuolo is a better defensive coach than McDermott. So we have exactly zero coaching advantages over them.

 

You're the one that asked what explains the difference between the Bills and Chiefs over the past few years. I guess you've landed on QB. For me, even if you want to say Mahomes on the whole has been better than Allen, it's pretty obvious that the drop off between the rosters and the drop off between the coaching staffs is much greater than whatever drop off exists between Mahomes and Allen.

 

FWIW I think Allen and Mahomes have alternated who was better than who in each season since 2020. Mahomes was better in 2020 and 2022, Allen was better in 2021 and 2023. It is not enough of a difference in either direction to account for the vast difference in playoff success between the respective franchises.

 

 

Sure, we can make up extremely unlikely scenarios in our head all day. Kelvin Benjamin was with the Chiefs after he left the Bills. He was great there, right? Kadarius Toney really turned it around in KC, yeah? Tyreek Hill fell off the map when he left?

 

I don't know why it is so hard for so many fans to evaluate talent independently. Mahomes is an elite player. So is Allen. You can still watch the players around them and make judgments about their abilities. It's not that complicated.

 

And it figures that the one year the offensive talent around Mahomes is somewhat comparable to the offensive talent around Allen that the Chiefs defense becomes elite. Forget switching QBs in yesterday's game. Just switch the defenses and nothing else and it is plainly obvious who ends up winning the game.

 

Because it just comes across as sour grapes. Mahomes had a 130 rating after all we heard is he can’t win on the road. After winning 2 MVPs, 2SBs (one each without Hill), helped terrible Nagy get a head coaching job (while Daboll won a COY), under Andy Reid (who was known as a choker and got fired in Philly). So why can’t bills fans stop trying to dismiss that he is truly all time great. Imagine if scenario was switched, and KC fans tried to do this. We would think they were morons. 
 

I mean I get this is offseason talk but man, let’s be better. We are lucky to have Allen but Mahomes is different man. 
 

of course this is the board with a 100 page thread of mahomes throwing an int in training camp practice 😂 

[Success]

KC fans talk about Allen the exact same way that Pats fans talked about Manning for years.

 

It's not just that "Mahomes is better." Josh Allen has to be total trash.  No in-between.  No, 'oh, they always have great games, and both are great, but to this point Mahomes has gotten the better of it.'

 

It's lame.  Now, of course, Pats fans hype Manning up - because they want to make it seem like Brady had some resistance on the way to "greatness."

 

Edited January 25 by Success

[Zerovoltz]

I didn't even read past the first post in this thread.

 

STOP DOING THIS.

 

Allen is a great QB.  Mahomes is a great QB.  

 

There is no reason to wonder about, doubt, think about "what if" or any of that when you have Josh Allen.

 

The teams that SHOULD be doing that are the Broncos, Jets, Giants, Browns...you know, teams that passed up Allen when they could have taken him.  

 

Harbaugh just took a job with the Chargers, who have a horrible cap situation going into next year and cheap owners.  They have Herbert....who isn't nearly ass accomplished as Allen.  That's how much the QB matters in the NFL...and the Bills have one of the 3 best humans in the world at that position.  Your problems are not at the QB position.  Stop looking there to find fault or wonder about it.  

 

There are VERY VERY VERY few teams who have a QB where the fanbase has ZERO to worry or wonder about and the Bills is one of those.  30 other teams WISH they had Allen.