I can't wait until dabolls system is gone for good!!!!

[LABILLBACKER]

One thing I will say is we've managed to get guys open on deeper routes the last 3rd of the season. Josh has either over-threw them or they dropped the ball. I don't mind the quicker routes & checkdowns.  It does help the OL. But I do want to draft younger faster wrs who can occasionally stretch the field.  I can live with Brady another year as long as he adds some wrinkles.

[JMM]

Brady might work out fine. I would LOVE to see Josh in a modified WCO though. Think Steve Young, only even more athletic!

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Pretty good article looking at offensive fits for the players drafted last year. 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/colts/news/best-scheme-top-quarterbacks-2023-nfl-draft#gid=ci02bdad4b0000279b&pid=usatsi_19467622

 

To me, Allen is a great fit for what we have been doing with E-P. Brady is an E-P coach, so if you are looking for a big change, you have to change coordinators. At LSU Brady was the passing game coordinator. He was not in full control of the offense. His first chance to do that was in Carolina where he got a little too spreadish and refused to run the football. It would appear he has learned his lesson. Brady is a Sean Payton guy who coached under Pete Carmichael Jr. who coached with Ray Perkins way back. Concepts will not change all that much. 

 

In terms of scheme, I hear many asking for a WCO, it's fine and Allen will be great in any offense. But the WCO may neuter some of his play-making ability unless you are installing Andy Reid's modified WCO. The WCO is a rhythm and timing offense in which the QB is the distributor. I'm not sure that's what I want for Josh. 

 

The point is, if Joe Brady is back, the concepts will not change much. E-P is E-P, he will add spread variations, some Y cross Lincon Riley type spread concepts. 

 

If Brady is not back I would consider a guy like Kliff Kingsbury. He's going to put the ball in the hands of the QB and let him cook. A ton of empty and air raid principles. However, I don't think McDermott would ever hire him because he doesn't "know him" and he wants the old ground and pound. Kingsbury is not a yes man and is kind of a jerk and demanding of his QB and receivers. That's what this team needs, and so does McDermott. 

 

Ultimately, I think Brady is back and we get to see him install his full offense. 

 

Unfortunately Josh is not a WCO rhythm qb. His strength is find his 1st or 2nd read or improvise off script. Because of his athleticism that will always be his game until he gets to his mid 30's.

[Hebert19]

13 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Brady did kinda implement his own system. I haven't seen us run as much as we have since the bye week. Daboll has more of a pass heavy system

Still same system.  They don't change systems mid season.  He changed how he called the game...and how he gameplanned but same system. 

4 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

I think he installed some of his own offense. Not a full thing but some of the offense was his

New terminology and concepts don't happen mid season. 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, uticaclub said:

He actually got something out of Daniel

Jones in 2022, made the playoffs & won coach of the year. I think he’s doing just fine in Jersey and Hindsight will show we should have fired McD after 13 seconds to promote Daboll.

Jones was completely mediocre that year.  For the second half of that season Daboll and Jones had the team in a free fall.  The backed into the playoffs and were trounced. 
 

Of course the proof of Daboll’s fraud was his own belief that he could be a serious  contender going forward with Jones—as though he could simply make him a very good QB.  But it’s clear that Daboll was a product of the talent around him.  They carried him. 
 

But Jones stinks, then he got injured, after he got paid.  And Daboll was left with his trousers around his ankles….

[Hebert19]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I mean that is not how the E-P works, but sure. The thing the E-P requires most of all is receivers with football intelligence and chemistry with their Quarterback because most concepts have options built in. 

 

If people want rid of it because of multiple breakdowns - especially between Josh and Gabe this year - where one read X and the other read Z then fine. But wanting rid of it because it is not "designed to get people open" is nonsense. 

It's very 1 on 1 winning centric....rather than scheming to get a guy open and that's your read.  Look at his history with Brady.  The check downs are when no one wins quick 1 on 1.   Offense is built to center on 1 on 1 match ups.  Very few crosses or rub routes/pick Plays.  This is how other teams get people running free.  We never do. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Jones was completely mediocre that year.  For the second half of that season Daboll and Jones had the team in a free fall.  The backed into the playoffs and were trounced. 
 

Of course the proof of Daboll’s fraud was his own belief that he could be a serious  contender going forward with Jones—as though he could simply make him a very good QB.  But it’s clear that Daboll was a product of the talent around him.  They carried him. 
 

But Jones stinks, then he got injured, after he got paid.  And Daboll was left with his trousers around his ankles….

 

They did win a playoff game.... but there was a lot of luck about the Giants last year. No doubt.

[Hebert19]

1 hour ago, MPL said:

And it struggled under Daboll, too. 

See Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Indy games in 2021 and Titans, Chiefs (both games), Jets game, and Ravens divisional round game in 2020. 

This.  When we had match up issues it because stagnant. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

 Very few crosses or rub routes/pick Plays.  This is how other teams get people running free.  We never do. 

 

This is just wrong. We run tons of picks and crossers. They are E-P staples.

 

I will say I think under Dorsey they relied too much on guys executing 1v1. But that was the plays he called rather than the scheme. Under both Daboll and then again since Brady took over there have been pick plays and crossers aplenty that have got people open. 

Edited January 23 by GunnerBill

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I also am curious to see what a Joe Brady installed offense looks like. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Good read:

 

How Mike Martz and The Greatest Show on Turf kicked off an NFL revolution

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/05/23/rams-greatest-show-on-turf-mike-martz-dick-vermeil

 

Let’s be honest,” Warner says, “we had a collection of talent that was ridiculous.”...The process started by retaining Isaac Bruce, a second round pick for the Rams in 1994. It involved the prescient and serendipitous signing of Kurt Warner in ’98, a grocer at the local Hy-Vee in Cedar Falls, Iowa just four years prior, as third-string quarterback. That preceded the unheralded drafting of speedy Az-Zahir Hakim in the fourth round of the ’98 draft, and the free agent pick up of crafty veteran Ricky Proehl that same year. It was officially set in motion with the heist of Marshall Faulk, in a trade from the Colts as a result of a contract dispute; and it culminated with the selection of Torry Holt with the sixth pick in ‘99.  It was also a collection of talent that all possessed a rare quality, an ineffable quality, a borderline cliché quality, that allowed the Coryell system to operate at a level of efficiency and efficacy that had never before been seen: high football IQ. 

 

Bottom-Line, this team, in my opinion, is lacking in the "Ridiculous Collection of Talent" at the WR position to master any offensive system.  We have a decent core with Allen, Cook (if he can improve his pass catching), Kincaid, Diggs, and Shakir.  But we need two more WRs who are high IQ, fast, tall, and compliment each other.  Davis was decent, but he was limited.  I think his best role was as a #4 vice #2.  Our WRs who best appeared synchronized as a group was the 2021 above-average core of Diggs, Sanders, Beasley, and Davis (with Sanders & Beasley at the end of their careers).  We need two studs to go along with Diggs and Shakir, with one of those kids eventually taking over for Diggs in a year or two. 

[mannc]

5 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

What kind of offensive system did you want in place with the OL that this team has trotted out since Daboll was here? A vertical attack with longer developing routes would have gotten Allen killed. Quicker routes have made this OL look better than it really is. 

I’m not sure what you mean.  I’d say we had a top 5 offensive line this year.  Certainly the best one I can remember since the Super Bowl years…all five starters started every game, as well…virtually unheard of.

[MPL]

9 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Good read:

 

How Mike Martz and The Greatest Show on Turf kicked off an NFL revolution

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/05/23/rams-greatest-show-on-turf-mike-martz-dick-vermeil

 

Let’s be honest,” Warner says, “we had a collection of talent that was ridiculous.”...The process started by retaining Isaac Bruce, a second round pick for the Rams in 1994. It involved the prescient and serendipitous signing of Kurt Warner in ’98, a grocer at the local Hy-Vee in Cedar Falls, Iowa just four years prior, as third-string quarterback. That preceded the unheralded drafting of speedy Az-Zahir Hakim in the fourth round of the ’98 draft, and the free agent pick up of crafty veteran Ricky Proehl that same year. It was officially set in motion with the heist of Marshall Faulk, in a trade from the Colts as a result of a contract dispute; and it culminated with the selection of Torry Holt with the sixth pick in ‘99.  It was also a collection of talent that all possessed a rare quality, an ineffable quality, a borderline cliché quality, that allowed the Coryell system to operate at a level of efficiency and efficacy that had never before been seen: high football IQ. 

 

Bottom-Line, this team, in my opinion, is lacking in the "Ridiculous Collection of Talent" at the WR position to master any offensive system.  We have a decent core with Allen, Cook (if he can improve his pass catching), Kincaid, Diggs, and Shakir.  But we need two more WRs who are high IQ, fast, tall, and compliment each other.  Davis was decent, but he was limited.  I think his best role was as a #4 vice #2.  Our WRs who best appeared synchronized as a group was the 2021 above-average core of Diggs, Sanders, Beasley, and Davis (with Sanders & Beasley at the end of their careers).  We need two studs to go along with Diggs and Shakir, with one of those kids eventually taking over for Diggs in a year or two. 

Draft 7 WRs this year. Gotta hit on 2 of them, right?!

[T master]

7 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

The bills have been to one AFC championship game recently, they didn’t win and it wasn’t either of those years. 

 

AFC East Championship sorry .

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

17 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

And neither should josh.  Ita not designed for him. It's designed to get people open quick and get YAC.  It's designed for tua or purdy.  Not josh.  It was modified to work with josh but it's a scheme that relies on athletes winning 1 on 1 all the time or you take check down.  

 

See Tom brady.  Early win or check it down.    Daboll in college had one of the greatest teams ever so they often won early.  

 

Ruggs

Smith

Ridley

Jeudy

Hurts

Tua

Jacobs 

Harris

Robinson

 

***** me.  I could have won natty with that team. 

 

Dorsey tried to keep it and put twists on it.  It didn't work. Brady focused on the simple stuff.  Kind of worked. 

 

We need brady to implement his own system that produced 2x 1k receivers. 1k rusher.

 

Dabolls system is actually *****.  Relies on qb to run.  Wrs to win quick.  And rarely schemes people open.  When we had bease brown and diggs it worked because someone always won quick.  Now we have no one that wins quick so it's a check down offense. 

 

Good riddons.  I'm excited to see josh on a system...not see a system that puts josh in it. 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

This offence has been terrible since Dabol left

 

Think Dorsey used much of Daboll's but tried to appease McD with running more, but not Allen running and ended up with a complete ineffective mess. 

 

Wouldn't shock me when Dorsey was fired and McD asked Brady to take over, he said yes, but only if you allow me to let Allen run again. 

 

I don't like ex good college QB's as an NFL OC as think they may to easily become the mad scientist, rubbing his hands together thinking all the things I can now do with a QB as good as Allen is, all things I was never able to do myself and they try to live vicariously through the QB.  Don't literally mean this, but you get the point.

 

Question is if Brady is given the job which good chance he will IMO, how much will he change the offense.

[BigAl2526]

The E-P system that the Bills have used is extremely flexible.  Not hard at all to use it for a deep passing game.  If a coach using E- P doesn't pass the ball deep as often as he could, that's a matter of preference for the coach.  Brady ran the ball a lot and seemed to run a high percentage of short passing plays was in part because of late season whether conditions and a desire to cut down on turnovers.  In the KC game, the Chiefs have an outstanding CB duo and the Bills receivers struggled getting open.  Even Diggs was having to make contested catches instead of getting separation.  Aside from Shakir, Buffalo's receivers struggled with the dropsies.  Josh threw one deep pass perfectly to a well covered Diggs.  Diggs let it go right through hands.

[Mikie2times]

It would be a catastrophic mistake to switch systems. This system is a perfect fit for Josh and his talent. It allows him to leverage his athletic ability and skill more so than other systems would. 

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, mannc said:

I’m not sure what you mean.  I’d say we had a top 5 offensive line this year.  Certainly the best one I can remember since the Super Bowl years…all five starters started every game, as well…virtually unheard of.

 

The OL’s health certainly helped them a great deal this season. 

[Drew21PA]

9 hours ago, T master said:

 

13 & 3 in 2022 - 11 & 6 in 2023 - plus each of those years was a AFC East division Championship yah it sucked .

I think he’s giving Josh more credit then the system which I agree with the OP

 

Josh makes anything - system was definitely flawed with daboll.  
 

zero running - throwing balance

[Patrick Duffy]

10 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

This offence has been terrible since Dabol left

 

Really? You feel the last 8-9 games Brady took over from Dorsey the offense was terrible? One could argue with Dorsey there were a few games you could say were terrible.

 

But since Brady it's been night and day difference.