Belichick without TB12

[BananaB]

He lucked into Brady but also helped  made Brady who he was. The first few Superbowls Brady was a game manager who never had the weight of a franchise on his shoulders.

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

6th round buddy.  Just trying to help, not correct.  Your post is correct.  He’s an obsolete coach at this point still thinking it’s defense and a run game.

 

Hes the worst in drafting a QB and WR’s.  He’s meant to be a DC.  He just doesn’t have it anymore and the 7 teams not picking him up speaks volumes.

[T master]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

Great combo like pizza & cheese, like beer & Wings, like Buffalo Wings & Blue cheese ! One just isn't as good with out the other ... 

[Royale with Cheese]

I think it's totally reasonable to say Brady made Belicheck more than the reverse.

 

However, I still think Belicheck would have still won at least one Super Bowl with another franchise QB.

He just has had trash outside of Brady.  I think if Belicheck had a Rivers, Manning, Stafford, Brees etc....he would have gotten at least one Lombardi.

[Brand J]

4 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

He didn’t exactly have an even above average QB in the Tom-less years. 

Drew Bledsoe? Belichick went 5-11 with him in 2000, 0-2 in 2001. Tom Brady stepped in and went 14-3 his first year, same roster Bledsoe (and Belichick) had to work with. 
 

Unless you believe Drew Bledsoe wasn’t an above average QB…

[Ghost_002!]

3 hours ago, Brand J said:

Drew Bledsoe? Belichick went 5-11 with him in 2000, 0-2 in 2001. Tom Brady stepped in and went 14-3 his first year, same roster Bledsoe (and Belichick) had to work with. 
 

Unless you believe Drew Bledsoe wasn’t an above average QB…

Tom Brady wasn't Tom Brady until like his 3rd SB. The patriots went on a killer streak once Brady took over. And Drew Bledsoe was an OK QB in the end. Nobody knows that more  after Patriots fans than Buffalo fans. 

Edited February 6 by Ghost_002!

[Beast]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:33 PM, TheFunPolice said:

now do Andy Reid with and without Mahomes

Reid was pretty good without Mahomes.

[TheFunPolice]

8 minutes ago, Beast said:

Reid was pretty good without Mahomes.

 

put another way, Reid was a borderline HOF coach before Mahomes ever played a down. 

 

Reid will be seen as the true GOAT, IMO, IF (and this isn't guaranteed) he coaches until he's 71 or 72. 

 

In other words, let's compare age 72 Andy Reid to age 72 Belichick and see about win totals, etc. It's very likely that he passes Belichick to have the most playoff wins of any HC in history (he's 6 behind now). It's also likely that if Belichick is done coaching and Reid coaches another 5-6 years he will break Shula's all-time record for HC wins. He probably won't get 6 rings though, so there will be a debate. 

 

All-time HC playoff wins: Reid

All-time HC regular season wins: Reid

Coaching tree: Reid by a billion

Success without Mahomes/Brady: Reid was a top 10 in HC wins all-time without Mahomes, Belichick has done squat without Brady

SB Wins: Belichick

 

So it will be a real, robust debate, but I think the overall body of work, especially without each guy's superstar QB, is in favor of Reid. 

 

This is all of course assuming he continues to coach until he is the age Belichick is now (he's 5 years younger). 

Edited February 6 by TheFunPolice

[Gregg]

9 minutes ago, Beast said:

Reid was pretty good without Mahomes.

 

McNabb was a pretty good QB as well. 

[TheFunPolice]

7 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

McNabb was a pretty good QB as well. 

 

McNabb was decent but not spectacular.

 

For comparison, Kirk Cousins has better stats (more yards, more TDs) and is still active and will only pad his lead on McNabb. 

 

Reid also won a lot of games with Alex Smith. Smith was so-so and largely considered a bust until he was paired with Reid and at least had some success. 

 

Alex Smith once went an entire season in KC without throwing a TD to a WR, just for reference. 

 

 

Edited February 6 by TheFunPolice

[Beast]

7 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

put another way, Reid was a borderline HOF coach before Mahomes ever played a down. 

 

Reid will be seen as the true GOAT, IMO, IF (and this isn't guaranteed) he coaches until he's 71 or 72. 

 

In other words, let's compare age 72 Andy Reid to age 72 Belichick and see about win totals, etc. It's very likely that he passes Belichick to have the most playoff wins of any HC in history (he's 6 behind now). It's also likely that if Belichick is done coaching and Reid coaches another 5-6 years he will break Shula's all-time record for HC wins. He probably won't get 6 rings though, so there will be a debate. 

 

All-time HC playoff wins: Reid

All-time HC regular season wins: Reid

Coaching tree: Reid by a billion

Success without Mahomes/Brady: Reid was a top 10 in HC wins all-time without Mahomes, Belichick has done squat without Brady

SB Wins: Belichick

 

So it will be a real, robust debate, but I think the overall body of work, especially without each guy's superstar QB, is in favor of Reid. 

 

This is all of course assuming he continues to coach until he is the age Belichick is now (he's 5 years younger). 

 

5 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

McNabb was a pretty good QB as well. 

McNabb had a career completion percentage under 60%. He only broke a 90 QB rating for a season 3 times.

 

Bill Belichick is Walt Michaels without Tom Brady.

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

McNabb had a career completion percentage under 60%. He only broke a 90 QB rating for a season 3 times.

 

Bill Belichick is Walt Michaels without Tom Brady.

 

 

 

Plus, people are comparing the two coaches at different points in their careers. 

 

Belichick had his superstar all-time QB early in his career, whereas Reid finally got his when he was 60+ years old. 

 

I really hope Reid continues to coach until he's 71 or 72. Then let's compare Reid at 72 to Belichick at 72, where he is now. 

 

IF Reid's still active until age 72 he will hold every single statistical advantage over Belichick except (maybe) SB rings. Plus he has a pretty successful coaching tree of guys who went on to win a lot of games and even Super Bowls (including hopefully McDermott!) 

 

Belichick has Brady and a bunch of awful coaches, outside of Vrabel who did all right in Tennessee but nothing spectacular. 

Edited February 6 by TheFunPolice

[Brand J]

41 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

Tom Brady wasn't Tom Brady until like his 3rd SB. The patriots went on a killer streak once Brady took over. And Drew Bledsoe was an OK QB in the end. Nobody knows that more  after Patriots fans than Buffalo fans. 

Tom Brady was simply a game manager when he first took the field, true, but as a Patriots fan, I’m sure you remember the quote where your offensive coordinator said “once Tom got in the game, the offense was just different. It was like a well oiled machine.”
 

Brady hardly made mistakes, he didn’t do things to beat the team, he kept his side of the ball clean and moving, which is all you could ask from him at that point. The argument was that Belichick has never had a QB who was even “above average” and I asked what about Drew Bledsoe? Two different QBs, yet two vastly different results. 

[Beast]

28 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Plus, people are comparing the two coaches at different points in their careers. 

 

Belichick had his superstar all-time QB early in his career, whereas Reid finally got his when he was 60+ years old. 

 

I really hope Reid continues to coach until he's 71 or 72. Then let's compare Reid at 72 to Belichick at 72, where he is now. 

 

IF Reid's still active until age 72 he will hold every single statistical advantage over Belichick except (maybe) SB rings. Plus he has a pretty successful coaching tree of guys who went on to win a lot of games and even Super Bowls (including hopefully McDermott!) 

 

Belichick has Brady and a bunch of awful coaches, outside of Vrabel who did all right in Tennessee but nothing spectacular. 

I actually believe that Joe Gibbs should be in the running when talking about best head coaches of all-time.

 

3 Super Bowl wins with 3 different QB’s in a 10 year period. Theismann, Williams and Rypien.

[Ghost_002!]

40 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

McNabb had a career completion percentage under 60%. He only broke a 90 QB rating for a season 3 times.

 

Bill Belichick is Walt Michaels without Tom Brady.

 

 

 

 

This is funny how fans pick and choose how to debate.

 

So for some BB is looked at as the great defensive mind who got lucked into Brady 

 

Andy Reid is better..well Reid is an offensive mind who wasn't thought about until he got Mahomes.

 

Besides Brady, BB has used sh*t QBs. Reid seen one SB w McNabb which at that time played like an above average QB.

 

We have seen that all thru history. A QB getting on a hot streak and making it to a SB.

 

Flacco, Jimmy G, Eli Manning, Kaepernick, I can go on. Before Mahomes, Ried wasn't seeing any rings. BB had 2 as a defensive coordinator which one of his SB game plans is in the HOF. He knows how to stop high power offenses.

 

As great as a offensive mind Reid  is, BB is that for the defense end. Who coached up alot of good defensive players into solid ones. Just as Reid has done w QBs

 

 

Can't penalized BB for having Tom Brady, if you aren't going to penalized Reid for having Mahomes, or Walsh for Montana, etc. Again i can go on..

Edited February 6 by Ghost_002!

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

This is funny how fans pick and choose how to debate.

 

So for some BB is looked at as the great defensive mind who got lucked into Brady 

 

Andy Reid is better..well Reid is an offensive mind who wasn't thought about until he got Mahomes.

 

Besides Brady, BB has used sh*t QBs. Reid seen one SB w McNabb which at that time played like an above average QB.

 

We have seen that all thru history. A QB getting on a hot streak and making it to a SB.

 

Flacco, Jimmy G, Eli Manning, Kaepernick, I can go on. Before Mahomes, Ried wasn't seeing any rings. BB had 2 as a defensive coordinator which one of his SB game plans is in the HOF. He knows how to stop high power offenses.

 

As great as a offensive  is, BB is that for the defense end. Who coached up alot of good defensive players into solid ones. Just as Reid has done w QBs

 

 

Can't penalized BB for having Tom Brady, if you aren't going to penalized Reid for having Mahomes, or Walsh for Montana, etc. Again i can go on..

And I said earlier Reid was successful with McNabb who had under a career 60% completion percentage.

 

Belichick won 1 playoff game in 11 years without Tom Brady.

 

I’ll repeat that….ONE GAME.

[Matt_In_NH]

On 1/12/2024 at 9:08 AM, Dubie54 said:

Great coach or great QB?

Both, end of story.  It is just ridiculous to say all you need is Tom Brady and the defense, special teams, pro personal, game day decisions, gameplans, etc and they perform like they did during those 20 years.   There is a big difference but it is not as simple as Brady/not Brady.  Correlation is not causation.  

[Ghost_002!]

41 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Tom Brady was simply a game manager when he first took the field, true, but as a Patriots fan, I’m sure you remember the quote where your offensive coordinator said “once Tom got in the game, the offense was just different. It was like a well oiled machine.”
 

Brady hardly made mistakes, he didn’t do things to beat the team, he kept his side of the ball clean and moving, which is all you could ask from him at that point. The argument was that Belichick has never had a QB who was even “above average” and I asked what about Drew Bledsoe? Two different QBs, yet two vastly different results. 

 

Tom Brady was past up repeatedly during the draft. He was a 6 round pick for a reason. He had a hungrier to get better.

 

 

Look of all the teams whom past on Mahomes? Who seen Mahomes turning into who he turned into?

Edited February 6 by Ghost_002!

[Ghost_002!]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

And I said earlier Reid was successful with McNabb who had under a career 60% completion percentage.

 

Belichick won 1 playoff game in 11 years without Tom Brady.

 

I’ll repeat that….ONE GAME.

 

Again realize the point of their careers..before Brady..

 

BB had his Cleveland days..

Yea there was Bledsoe but again. Bills know how Bledsoe played.  And now there was jones,Newton, etc.

 

Not arguing Reid isn't a great coach. I'm arguing the way Reid and other coaches are judge. Some fans don't judge BB the same way 

 

 

What's Ried's record head to head again BB. Just for the sake of the discussion?

[Beast]

1 minute ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

Again realize the point of their careers..before Brady..

 

BB had his Cleveland days..

Yea there was Bledsoe but again. Bills know how Bledsoe played.  And now there was jones,Newton, etc.

 

Not arguing Reid isn't a great coach. I'm arguing the way Reid and other coaches are judge. Some fans don't judge BB the same way 

 

 

What's Ried's record head to head again BB. Just for the sake of the discussion?

Google it.