Belichick without TB12

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Joe Gibbs. Most underrated coach in nfl history. Won 3 SBs with 3 different Matt Cassel.

 

put it like this alpha. If you have a new team, who do you want to coach it without a qb place of current coaches? I’d go 100% with Reid first. I may go with Tomlin second because of what he has done with some garbage qbs. Or Shanahan/ McVay. Hell, I love what Matt Lafleur has done with a second qb. 

 

I mean I wouldn't say all Cassels given Joe Theisman is an NFL MVP.  And the other 2 years they won, Rypien and Doug balled out in the playoffs.  But I do think Gibbs needs more love as an all time great HC than he gets.

 

Tomlin is overrated.  You guys think McD pisses you off with in game bone head decisions, go watch Steelers games.  Tomlin is notorious for stupid decisions.

 

Who I would choose as a HC is highly dependent on the full roster makeup.  If I got a lot of offensive pieces outside the QB and a marginal or worse D, then the offensive HC likely makes the biggest impact right away and can scheme around the strengths and weaknesses of the offense.  If the defense is the strength of the team, then a defensive HC to maximize that strength makes more sense for immediate success.

 

But I would take BB over any of the available candidates.  100 times over Tomlin...he doesn't belong in any convo with BB.  Reid is seen as this great mastermind now...but why?  Because of Mahomes.  He had McNabb who has a HOF case regardless if anyone thinks its strong enough or not strong enough.  Yet no SB's despite 5 straight NFC championship games.  

 

The fact you mention Reid now that he has elevated his status on the back of Mahomes says everything about why a HC and his legacy is tied to his QB.  

[Brand J]

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What is Bill Walsh without Joe Montana?  Have you looked at who the other QB's were that he worked with outside of Brady?  Show me what HC has a winning record with those losers.  

 

Second, if you think the Pats had a stacked roster all 20 years that Brady was there then you are kidding yourself.  Brees is a top 10 QB all time and he struggled to make the playoffs several years because just having an all time great QB doesn't just mean you are a playoff lock of SB lock.  

 

I get the bias hatred for BB around here, but literally you, nor anyone else, has yet to make a single point that wouldn't ALSO discredit every other all time great HC by taking away his QB.  

 

Sorry...no HC is above .500 with the QB's he had outside Brady.  And no HC in the HOF has the same career if they had Mac Jones level QB's to work with their whole career.  

 

And more importantly, they won SB's back when Brady was a game manager too, in fact that was there most dominant dynasty run with 3 SB wins in 4 years.  Like there is no logical argument to discredit BB and his accomplishments.  

 

Now I need to go take shower to watch the ick off me after people here made me defend BB.  

I don’t know why I’m having a discussion with someone who keeps raising points to counter points I’ve never made. It’s like you’re reading into whatever arguments you want to read into in your effort to defend Belichick. 
 

I think we can both agree that not only was Tom Brady a superior QB to Drew Brees, but the rosters NE had were superior to those that Brees had. Never mind the injuries that New Orleans went through. That argument does nothing to eliminate your “other coaches would’ve struggled to even make the playoffs let alone win Super Bowls” with Brady at the helm.

[CEN-CAL17]

Belichick had Lawrence Taylor as a DC with the Giants…. Arguably the greatest player to play on defense.  Plus the greatest player on offense. (Which made coaching defense easier) It does seem he had some of the greatest players around him that helped him make a name. 
 

Imagine if he was a DC on a terrible defense with no playmakers…. I’m sure none of us would even know who he was.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by CEN-CAL17

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

he won one playoff game 30 years??? Clearly, it was all Belichick then!!!

 

Fun fact, Vinny won more playoff games without Belichick than Belichick won without Brady! 

The Matt Cassel season is the most overrated in history. It was an undefeated team (until the SB!) and lost 5 more games the next year. That’s a huge drop off (if we do that next year, we’re 6-11). 
 

compared that to Brady literally winning a SB the next year without him on a team that missed the playoffs the year before. 
 

obviously, Belichick did some great, innovative things but it’s pretty clear he’s not some elite mastermind who can win with anyone. He needs to go to a situation with a QB and weapons in place where he can just oversee the team. 

 

who is "he"?

 

The point you are pretending to miss is that he turned around, briefly, a moribund franchise. 

 

In the games he actually threw a pass in, Vinny won 2 playoff games---one with Browns and one with the Jets. 

 

Were a great QB and weapons in place when BB drafted Brady?  No, they were 5-11 with Bledsoe--Brady was the 2nd or 3rd string guy.   Was Brady a great QB the 1st SB winning season? again, no. 

55 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Joe Gibbs. Most underrated coach in nfl history. Won 3 SBs with 3 different Matt Cassel.

 

put it like this alpha. If you have a new team, who do you want to coach it without a qb place of current coaches? I’d go 100% with Reid first. I may go with Tomlin second because of what he has done with some garbage qbs. Or Shanahan/ McVay. Hell, I love what Matt Lafleur has done with a second qb. 

This might hold more weigh if Brady didn’t have 6 other SBs. Belichick tried multiple ways to replace Brady and was awful expect for the one season with a playoff team that got historically stomped by us. He had a losing record in NE before mo Lewis saved him.

 

obviously, he’s a good strategist and coach. But Brady has proven he is a million times more the “patriot way” than Belichick.

 

these takes get worse!

 

BB had one season before he picked Brady.

 

You and others making re-writing history to make it seem like Brady was a fully formed HOFer as soon as he stepped on the field--only waiting for his moment to dominate the league.

 

can't take that seriously.

[GerstAusGosheim]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

Greatest coach in NFL history and greatest QB in NFL history. 

 

Bill had the luxury of coaching by far the greatest QB (BRADY) and arguably the greatest defensive player of all time (LT)

 

With Brady (who never asked to be highest paid QB) on the team, free agents took less money to play for NE.

 

And the AFC East sucked almost the entire time.

 

And on top of that, he was a widely known cheater.

 

Of course he's a first ballot HOFer, and yes he's in the conversation for greatest coach of all time, but no other coach benefitted so much from one player.

 

And his 83-104 (.449) record shows it.

 

 

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

5 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

For sure would have been less successful without Tom but some people tend to forget some of those superbowls were won because of their defense.   The one where McVay got completely shut down is a perfect example. 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

 

Bill had the luxury of coaching by far the greatest QB (BRADY) and arguably the greatest defensive player of all time (LT)

 

With Brady (who never asked to be highest paid QB) on the team, free agents took less money to play for NE.

 

And the AFC East sucked almost the entire time.

 

And on top of that, he was a widely known cheater.

 

Of course he's a first ballot HOFer, and yes he's in the conversation for greatest coach of all time, but no other coach benefitted so much from one player.

 

And his 83-104 (.449) record shows it.

 

 

 

 

I can’t name any coach in the GOAT conversation who didn’t have an elite QB during his tenure. 

[pigpen65]

Tell me what play the other team is going to run before the play and I would be an all-time great coach too.

[GerstAusGosheim]

55 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I can’t name any coach in the GOAT conversation who didn’t have an elite QB during his tenure. 

Gibbs is not in the GOAT conversation but maybe he should be. Only coach in NFL history to win three SBs with three different starting QBs.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Amazing coach. GOAT QB.

 

edit: also, I hate this thread for making me say that.

Brady made belichick, not the other way around

 

 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

who is "he"?

 

The point you are pretending to miss is that he turned around, briefly, a moribund franchise. 

 

In the games he actually threw a pass in, Vinny won 2 playoff games---one with Browns and one with the Jets. 

 

Were a great QB and weapons in place when BB drafted Brady?  No, they were 5-11 with Bledsoe--Brady was the 2nd or 3rd string guy.   Was Brady a great QB the 1st SB winning season? again, no. 

 

these takes get worse!

 

BB had one season before he picked Brady.

 

You and others making re-writing history to make it seem like Brady was a fully formed HOFer as soon as he stepped on the field--only waiting for his moment to dominate the league.

 

can't take that seriously.

Belichick was 5-11 in his first year with Drew Bledsoe. 0-2 the very next season before Mo Lewis rewrote the Patriots history with a hit on the sideline. After Bledsoe got hurt, Brady stepped in and went 15-3 the rest of the way. Was he an All Pro? No. But he clearly had that special something to propel the team to the Super Bowl. Would Belichick have won the SB that year with Bledsoe? Was Bledsoe a Matt Cassel level QB?
 

I can’t find the quote, but later that season the offensive coordinator had admitted that when Brady took over, the offense was just different. It ran like a well oiled machine. Belichick owes his success to Brady, not the other way around. This does not mean that Belichick was a bad coach, but the players make the plays. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Brand J said:

I don’t know why I’m having a discussion with someone who keeps raising points to counter points I’ve never made. It’s like you’re reading into whatever arguments you want to read into in your effort to defend Belichick. 
 

I think we can both agree that not only was Tom Brady a superior QB to Drew Brees, but the rosters NE had were superior to those that Brees had. Never mind the injuries that New Orleans went through. That argument does nothing to eliminate your “other coaches would’ve struggled to even make the playoffs let alone win Super Bowls” with Brady at the helm.

 

Dude, you are so hung up on exaggerating and misquoting what I said.  I was clearly referencing some of the years where the Pats roster was not that great and they still had tremendous success and even won SB.  I didn't say all coaches would have struggled to make playoffs with Brady for 20 years.  

 

You literally have never once answered my question.  What legacy does Bill Walsh have if he had Mac Jones instead of Joe Montana?  You are the one totally down playing BB resume based on how he fared without Brady while totally refusing to acknowledge how poor the QB's were that he had when he didnt have Brady.  Its not like prior to NE he had a sub .500 record while he had a good QB.  

 

 

[transient]

HOF coach with a HOF QB that covered up for that fact that he absolutely sucked as a GM.

[Chicken Boo]

Yeah, it's not like Bill had 2 rings before ever meeting Brady or anything.

[Saxum]

4 hours ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Belichick had Lawrence Taylor as a DC with the Giants…. Arguably the greatest player to play on defense.  Plus the greatest player on offense. (Which made coaching defense easier) It does seem he had some of the greatest players around him that helped him make a name. 
 

Imagine if he was a DC on a terrible defense with no playmakers…. I’m sure none of us would even know who he was.

 

He still would instruct players to cheat as much as they could get away with and he did in Superbowl vs Bills.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Dude, you are so hung up on exaggerating and misquoting what I said.  I was clearly referencing some of the years where the Pats roster was not that great and they still had tremendous success and even won SB.  I didn't say all coaches would have struggled to make playoffs with Brady for 20 years.  

 

You literally have never once answered my question.  What legacy does Bill Walsh have if he had Mac Jones instead of Joe Montana?  You are the one totally down playing BB resume based on how he fared without Brady while totally refusing to acknowledge how poor the QB's were that he had when he didnt have Brady.  Its not like prior to NE he had a sub .500 record while he had a good QB.  

 

 

I didn’t answer your question because it’s not a point I raised, or disagreed with. I thought you would’ve understood that seeing as how I never contested the point. Belichick went 5-13 with a “good” QB in Drew Bledsoe. What was the problem there? How did Tom Brady step in and go 15-3 with the same roster of players?
 

The Pats roster with a prime Tom Brady could never qualify as “not that great.” In whatever years you’re referencing, compare the talent they had against the talent they had to beat. No QB was on the level of Tom Brady, so that’s going to immediately level the field. As to the bolded, I never said you said “all coaches,” so who’s exaggerating the point?

[Ta111]

As a wise man once said “it’s more about the Jimmys and the Joes rather than the X’s and O’s”.

[Ghost_002!]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:29 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

This might hold more weigh if Brady didn’t have 6 other SBs. Belichick tried multiple ways to replace Brady and was awful expect for the one season with a playoff team that got historically stomped by us. He had a losing record in NE before mo Lewis saved him.

 

obviously, he’s a good strategist and coach. But Brady has proven he is a million times more the “patriot way” than Belichick.

 

 

Again..show me a great coach who didn't have a great player in sports to help him win a championship 

 

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

He didn’t exactly have an even above average QB in the Tom-less years.