Belichick without TB12

[Beast]

Mediocre coach, best ever QB.

 

His record without Brady is worse than Lovie Smith’s and Walt Michaels.

[Saxum]

2 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Belichick has his flowers, I just don’t think he’s the greatest head coach of all time. That’s to say that no other coach in the history of the league would've been able to replicate the success he had with one Tom Brady. 

 

No coach could replicate it without cheating and an owner willing to fund it.

[Buffalo03]

6 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Unanimous Hall of Cheating nominee.

 

Some don't seem to care about cheating even when it is done to Bills by their heroes.

 

Same thing for the Br*dy d*ck riders.

Brady has proven it. He won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Belichick literally did NOTHING without Brady going back to his days in Cleveland. Not even a comparison 

[FilthyBeast]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

McDermott made the playoffs in his first year without Allen. He actually had a worst record in their first year together.

 

And Reid has worked with many qbs and had success. Obviously, Mahomes is a different animal but Reid has been way more successful with other qbs than BB.

 

Tom Brady literally won a a SB with a team that missed the playoffs the year before in his first year without BB. 

 

The point is you can't rewrite history and get into hypothetical with BB and Brady....regardless of your feelings towards them.

 

Also important to point though that Brady really didn't become truly dominant until 2007 when they landed Moss and almost went undefeated before losing to the Giants in the SB that year. The first 3 SB's they won between 2001 - 2004 were based on dominant defense and ST with Brady being the ultimate 'clutch game manager' so to speak in the playoffs, so you certainly have to give credit to Belichik for that.

[julian]

5 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Unanimous Hall of Cheating nominee.

 

Some don't seem to care about cheating even when it is done to Bills by their heroes.

 

Same thing for the Br*dy d*ck riders.

Oh I care that he’s a cheater, but I can also recognize his defensive resume as the greatest. 
 

 Both things can be true.

[Ghost_002!]

16 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

McDermott made the playoffs in his first year without Allen. He actually had a worst record in their first year together.

 

And Reid has worked with many qbs and had success. Obviously, Mahomes is a different animal but Reid has been way more successful with other qbs than BB.

 

Tom Brady literally won a a SB with a team that missed the playoffs the year before in his first year without BB. 

 

 

Do we want to go back and look at the buccaneers roster inwhich Brady won with?

 

Do we wanna remember the buccaneers defense that Brady won with and the run they went on in the playoffs?

 

Remember Brady's last season n playoff game in NE with no weapons and how bad he looked to the point many people thought he should retire?

 

Brady didn't go to the jets and turned them into a SB team.

 

He went to a team that was just missing a QB cause their QB the year before threw 20ints.

Edited January 12 by Ghost_002!

[TheFunPolice]

now do Andy Reid with and without Mahomes

[BigDingus]

That's just how it is. Who knows how Brady develops under a different HC?

 

He may never have gotten the chance, or at least not until much later in his career. They're both crucial to each other's success.

[Dat]

Thinking on it, Ernie Adams also left the organization and may have been another factor in the downfall. Rumored to be the wizard behind the curtain.

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

he won one playoff game 30 years??? Clearly, it was all Belichick then!!!

 

Fun fact, Vinny won more playoff games without Belichick than Belichick won without Brady! 

The Matt Cassel season is the most overrated in history. It was an undefeated team (until the SB!) and lost 5 more games the next year. That’s a huge drop off (if we do that next year, we’re 6-11). 
 

compared that to Brady literally winning a SB the next year without him on a team that missed the playoffs the year before. 
 

obviously, Belichick did some great, innovative things but it’s pretty clear he’s not some elite mastermind who can win with anyone. He needs to go to a situation with a QB and weapons in place where he can just oversee the team. 

 

Why is that only applied to BB though?  Where are the list of HC's winning multiple Super Bowls with the Matt Cassels of the world?

[RoyBatty is alive]

2 hours ago, papazoid said:

 

 

2008 NE went 11-5 with Matt Cassel

Look at that year in detail and you discover the AFC east division had the easiest schedules in the league.  .

 

In their losses whenever the Pats played a good team, the Pats got rolled, badly.

 

Pats had a very weak schedule, just like the Bills did and even the Bills with terrible roster and QB managed  to go 7-9, two off the bill loses were to the pats so taking out the Bills Pats, Pats were 9-5 and the Bills were 7-7.

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, Brand J said:

 

We’ve got no proof how another coach would’ve fared with the greatest QB of all time and those defensive rosters Belichick had to work with. To say that most would’ve “struggled to make the playoffs?” Based on what evidence? What other squads in the history of the NFL that had a 1st team All Pro QB who's also a first ballot HOFer, struggled to make the playoffs?
 

I never said Belichick wasn’t a good coach, obviously he is, but he is also a sub 500 coach without Tom Brady. Two things can be true. Is that subpar record indicative of his coaching abilities? Or is it reflective of the lack of an all time great at QB? I think we all know that answer.
 

Belichick has his flowers, I just don’t think he’s the greatest head coach of all time. That’s to say that no other coach in the history of the league would've been able to replicate the success he had with one Tom Brady. 

 

Every HC is a sub .500 HC with the losers BB had before and after Brady.  Why is this point so hard to grasp?  There are not great HC's who had HOF resumes with Mac Jones level QB's.  

 

This idea that you want to discredit BB accomplishments because of his QB means you need to do the same for Bill Walsh, Jimmy Johnson, etc.  Even Andy Reid was "overrated" and a "choker" after he left Philly going to the NFCCG 5 times to only reach a SB once and lose.  Now he is "the greatest offensive mind ever" and one of the "GOATS" - Why?  Because he has the next GOAT in Mahomes.  

 

Sorry...there is no case to discredit BB that you can't also apply to every other great HC of all time who had multiple SB wins and sustained success like BB had...well no one has ever had the resume BB has, so we will just say sustained success.

Edited January 12 by Alphadawg7

[TheFunPolice]

4 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

That's just how it is. Who knows how Brady develops under a different HC?

 

He may never have gotten the chance, or at least not until much later in his career. They're both crucial to each other's success.

 

Belichick knew how to push Brady's buttons and Brady was a guy who dedicated his life to winning Super Bowls and was willing to take the abuse and being dressed down in front of his team on a regular basis because in the end he just wanted the W's

 

Very very few QBs could have done that for very long, especially once he became established. 

 

It set a tone for the entire team and made everyone buy in. Imagine the tremendous peer pressure to not screw up when Tom Brady is being ripped apart like a rookie walk on and he's taking it and putting in the work. 

 

 

[Another Fan]

Belichick had that Super Bowl against the Rams they won 13-3 where the defense did its thing.  Tom didn’t do much in that Super Bowl.

 

Case in point he needed Brady for his success but I still think he’s one of the best there was.  

 

 

 

[K D]

3 hours ago, BBFL said:

Tom is Bill, Bill is Tom. 
Still, so they know, cheating is wrong. 

Don't agree. Tom won without Bill. Bill did not win without Tom

[bigduke6]

really not sure how good of a coach Bill is or was.  did he make Brady,  or did Brady make him?   without Brady he was terrible overall.   then theres the cheating.  i dont care what anybody says,  if you know what the other team is going to do,  when they are going to do it,  the game completely changes.   i remember Jimmie Johnson telling a story about somehow finding out what the Bills were doing play wise before one of the Super Bowls,  and being able to shut it down because of the knowledge.    i still dont respect Belichick.  theres too much smoke there not to be fire.

[Brand J]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Every HC is a sub .500 HC with the losers BB had before and after Brady.  Why is this point so hard to grasp?  There are not great HC's who had HOF resumes with Mac Jones level QB's.  

 

This idea that you want to discredit BB accomplishments because of his QB means you need to do the same for Bill Walsh, Jimmy Johnson, etc.  Even Andy Reid was "overrated" and a "choker" after he left Philly going to the NFCCG 5 times to only reach a SB once and lose.  Now he is "the greatest offensive mind ever" and one of the "GOATS" - Why?  Because he has the next GOAT in Mahomes.  

 

Sorry...there is no case to discredit Brady that you can't also apply to every other great HC of all time who had multiple SB wins and sustained success like BB had...well no one has ever had the resume BB has, so we will just say sustained success.

Did you read my post? I said the lack of the greatest QB of all time is reflective of Belichick’s sub 500 record. If discrediting Belichick means that I’m not on board with calling him “the greatest head coach of all time,” then I’ll accept that. But please don’t act like other coaches would’ve struggled to make the playoffs with Tom Brady and the defensive rosters Belichick had to work with. That’s nonsensical.  

2 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

really not sure how good of a coach Bill is or was.  did he make Brady,  or did Brady make him?   without Brady he was terrible overall.   then theres the cheating.  i dont care what anybody says,  if you know what the other team is going to do,  when they are going to do it,  the game completely changes.   i remember Jimmie Johnson telling a story about somehow finding out what the Bills were doing play wise before one of the Super Bowls,  and being able to shut it down because of the knowledge.    i still dont respect Belichick.  theres too much smoke there not to be fire.

Johnson saw the Bills running the shovel pass on TV during an interview and looked into how many times they had done it all season. When he found out it wasn’t much, he made a concerted effort to stop that particular play. 

[TheFunPolice]

5 minutes ago, Another Fan said:

Belichick had that Super Bowl against the Rams they won 13-3 where the defense did its thing.  Tom didn’t do much in that Super Bowl.

 

Case in point he needed Brady for his success but I still think he’s one of the best there was.  

 

 

 

 

worst Super Bowl ever...

 

if you watch the replay on NFL's YouTube channel, players were even yawning on the sidelines! LOL

 

Wasn't it 3-0 going into the 4th quarter? 

[Alphadawg7]

35 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Did you read my post? I said the lack of the greatest QB of all time is reflective of Belichick’s sub 500 record. If discrediting Belichick means that I’m not on board with calling him “the greatest head coach of all time,” then I’ll accept that. But please don’t act like other coaches would’ve struggled to make the playoffs with Tom Brady and the defensive rosters Belichick had to work with. That’s nonsensical.  

Johnson saw the Bills running the shovel pass on TV during an interview and looked into how many times they had done it all season. When he found out it wasn’t much, he made a concerted effort to stop that particular play. 

 

What is Bill Walsh without Joe Montana?  Have you looked at who the other QB's were that he worked with outside of Brady?  Show me what HC has a winning record with those losers.  

 

Second, if you think the Pats had a stacked roster all 20 years that Brady was there then you are kidding yourself.  Brees is a top 10 QB all time and he struggled to make the playoffs several years because just having an all time great QB doesn't just mean you are a playoff lock of SB lock.  

 

I get the bias hatred for BB around here, but literally you, nor anyone else, has yet to make a single point that wouldn't ALSO discredit every other all time great HC by taking away his QB.  

 

Sorry...no HC is above .500 with the QB's he had outside Brady.  And no HC in the HOF has the same career if they had Mac Jones level QB's to work with their whole career.  

 

And more importantly, they won SB's back when Brady was a game manager too, in fact that was there most dominant dynasty run with 3 SB wins in 4 years.  Like there is no logical argument to discredit BB and his accomplishments.  

 

Now I need to go take shower to watch the ick off me after people here made me defend BB.  

[C.Biscuit97]

51 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Why is that only applied to BB though?  Where are the list of HC's winning multiple Super Bowls with the Matt Cassels of the world?

Joe Gibbs. Most underrated coach in nfl history. Won 3 SBs with 3 different Matt Cassel.

 

put it like this alpha. If you have a new team, who do you want to coach it without a qb place of current coaches? I’d go 100% with Reid first. I may go with Tomlin second because of what he has done with some garbage qbs. Or Shanahan/ McVay. Hell, I love what Matt Lafleur has done with a second qb. 

1 hour ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

Do we want to go back and look at the buccaneers roster inwhich Brady won with?

 

Do we wanna remember the buccaneers defense that Brady won with and the run they went on in the playoffs?

 

Remember Brady's last season n playoff game in NE with no weapons and how bad he looked to the point many people thought he should retire?

 

Brady didn't go to the jets and turned them into a SB team.

 

He went to a team that was just missing a QB cause their QB the year before threw 20ints.

This might hold more weigh if Brady didn’t have 6 other SBs. Belichick tried multiple ways to replace Brady and was awful expect for the one season with a playoff team that got historically stomped by us. He had a losing record in NE before mo Lewis saved him.

 

obviously, he’s a good strategist and coach. But Brady has proven he is a million times more the “patriot way” than Belichick.