BuffaloNuts Posted January 12 Posted January 12 13 hours ago, John from Riverside said: It was just a poor throw, poor decision But it didn’t cost us It was also the play call. 2 of the recievers were downfield in the endzone. There weren't really any underneath options and they had the run covered. At that point in time... not a bad decision on his part to take a chance at a flag or TD. Quote
AKC Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 55 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: I was actually a lot more critical of Miami on the two EZ INTs. They cost themselves 17 yards on the one they returned the to 3 and 15 yards by actually intercepting the ball on 4th down rather than knocking it down. They got that one on the 20 instead of the 35. That’s 42 yards on those two mistakes. As for Allen heaving one on 4th down. Why wouldn’t he? He can’t throw it away, take a sack or run it (okay MAYBE HE CAN RUN IT). He pretty much had to throw it somewhere. It’s fair to question the coaching, the QB play and/or the decision to intercept either pass. My criticism is really with the 4th and 2 game call about it being “as good as a punt” and the continuing use of that phrase in recaps and discussion. It wasn’t as good as a punt. Of course there were possibilities that could have resulted in better outcomes than a punt but they did not happen. A forced throw on 4th and 2 against your inertia bailed out by a defensive error is just two (or 3) errors that don’t add up to a positive. Quote
Doc Posted January 12 Posted January 12 4 minutes ago, AKC said: It’s fair to question the coaching, the QB play and/or the decision to intercept either pass. My criticism is really with the 4th and 2 game call about it being “as good as a punt” and the continuing use of that phrase in recaps and discussion. It wasn’t as good as a punt. Of course there were possibilities that could have resulted in better outcomes than a punt but they did not happen. A forced throw on 4th and 2 against your inertia bailed out by a defensive error is just two (or 3) errors that don’t add up to a positive. You don't punt from your own 35-yard line. 1 Quote
Danger Mouse Posted January 12 Posted January 12 it's not a substitute no. But it also has the potential for a TD, does't it. So it's a risk reward thing. Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted January 12 Posted January 12 I'd risk the 15 yards for the chance of a defensive penalty or a score. 15 yards is meaningless in today's NFL. Quote
BarleyNY Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) 31 minutes ago, AKC said: It’s fair to question the coaching, the QB play and/or the decision to intercept either pass. My criticism is really with the 4th and 2 game call about it being “as good as a punt” and the continuing use of that phrase in recaps and discussion. It wasn’t as good as a punt. Of course there were possibilities that could have resulted in better outcomes than a punt but they did not happen. A forced throw on 4th and 2 against your inertia bailed out by a defensive error is just two (or 3) errors that don’t add up to a positive. You definitely want to go for it on 4th & 2 from the opponent's 35. IIRC Allen would have had to run over a couple defenders to run for it so that was not the best option. So he had to throw it. I'd have to look at the play again to see if he missed a better option - and judging by how covered the receiver in the EZ was that is a definite possibility - but that is about the only place I would look for fault on this play. And it's worth noting that Allen was scrambling at the time. The throw across his body is something he has had success with so I don't fault him for that either. As for the "it was as good as a punt" argument, I agree that it is a poor one. That's just fans justifying the result of a play with a bad outcome. I'm more in the "the defense gets paid too and sometimes they win" crowd. Edited January 12 by BarleyNY Quote
AKC Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 34 minutes ago, Doc said: You don't punt from your own 35-yard line. Happens every week of the season. Punting from the opponents 35 is going to be a rare situational choice. Quote
Doc Posted January 12 Posted January 12 55 minutes ago, AKC said: Happens every week of the season. Punting from the opponents 35 is going to be a rare situational choice. How many times has it happened? Quote
AKC Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Doc said: How many times has it happened? We were on the Dolphins 35 on the 4th down play, defending the end zone behind us. The end zone in front of us was the Dolphins end zone. Shakir took a pass on our end of the field into Dolphins territory on the second play of the drive. You're getting the Bills 35 and the Dolphins 35 reversed. Edited January 12 by AKC Quote
Rock'em Sock'em Posted January 12 Posted January 12 In order of benefit 1. TD 2. Pick up 1st down 3. FG 4. Punt inside 20 or INT inside 20 5. Punt for a touchback or INT for a touchback 6. Incomplete pass 7. Sack or TFL less than 8 yards 8. Missed FG 9. 10 yard sack 10. Turn over returned past the 42 yard line or for a TD Analytics says go for it. That's a good decision. They didn't make the play, which happens. The outcome was not what they wanted, but it could have been worse. It turned out better than a missed FG. Quote
Doc Posted January 12 Posted January 12 1 hour ago, AKC said: We were on the Dolphins 35 on the 4th down play, defending the end zone behind us. The end zone in front of us was the Dolphins end zone. Shakir took a pass on our end of the field into Dolphins territory on the second play of the drive. You're getting the Bills 35 and the Dolphins 35 reversed. Yes my bad, I meant you should never punt from your opponent's 35-yard line. Quote
HomeskillitMoorman Posted January 12 Posted January 12 7 hours ago, Doc Brown said: My problem with Josh on that play is he had Kincaid open for an easy first down. He absolutely made the right play to heave it to the end zone though once he went off that read. There was nobody open and he wasn't going to be able to pick it up with his legs. You just heave it up and hope your guy can make a play and if he can't then maybe the other team will be dumb enough to pick it off. I love 17 but that's still the biggest thing for me with him, moreso than the turnovers. There are times when he has the easy 1st down on a 3rd or in this case 4th and he's looking for the big play instead. It's fun sometimes, moreso in the last 3 years when it felt like the offense was overall more dynamic, but he's just gotta take it when it's there like that. Quote
Augie Posted January 12 Posted January 12 6 hours ago, CSBill said: My question on that play was, why not kick the field goal? For many teams, a 55 or less field goal is almost automatic; but it seems that McDermott has lost confidence in Tyler Bass for longer attempts. I don’t think it’s that he’s lost confidence in Bass. I think he knows there’s something up physically with Bass and he knows he doesn’t have his typical range. That’s what it feels like to me, anyway. 1 Quote
The Jokeman Posted January 12 Posted January 12 3 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: I'd risk the 15 yards for the chance of a defensive penalty or a score. 15 yards is meaningless in today's NFL. I disagree a 30 yard field goal a gimme, a 45 yard field goal lingers in the maybe category. Quote
dave mcbride Posted January 12 Posted January 12 3 hours ago, AKC said: It’s fair to question the coaching, the QB play and/or the decision to intercept either pass. My criticism is really with the 4th and 2 game call about it being “as good as a punt” and the continuing use of that phrase in recaps and discussion. It wasn’t as good as a punt. Of course there were possibilities that could have resulted in better outcomes than a punt but they did not happen. A forced throw on 4th and 2 against your inertia bailed out by a defensive error is just two (or 3) errors that don’t add up to a positive. I'd say it was as good as an average punt from that distance. Most from inside the 40 aren't coffin cornered but rather go into the end zone. So the result was the same as a typical punt. Of course, we could have nailed an excellent and atypical punt too. 3 hours ago, BarleyNY said: You definitely want to go for it on 4th & 2 from the opponent's 35. IIRC Allen would have had to run over a couple defenders to run for it so that was not the best option. So he had to throw it. I'd have to look at the play again to see if he missed a better option - and judging by how covered the receiver in the EZ was that is a definite possibility - but that is about the only place I would look for fault on this play. And it's worth noting that Allen was scrambling at the time. The throw across his body is something he has had success with so I don't fault him for that either. As for the "it was as good as a punt" argument, I agree that it is a poor one. That's just fans justifying the result of a play with a bad outcome. I'm more in the "the defense gets paid too and sometimes they win" crowd. If you watch the Warner video, the first option was Kincaid, and he was wide open for the first. It was an easy play and schemed perfectly. Josh saw that he had Diggs outside, though, and got greedy. 1 Quote
Prospector Posted January 12 Posted January 12 16 hours ago, dma0034 said: Everyone was covered. Maybe if he rushes he gets it but he took half a second too long. Throws it up and Gabe falls. You know what's worse than a 4th down interception? A 4th down sack, or run that doesn't get the yardage. You have to try something there. Josh made mistakes in the game but this isn't one of those mistakes At least Gabe tripped himself this time, and we don't need to complain about a DB kicking his feet intentionally. Quote
Jon in Pasadena Posted January 12 Posted January 12 40 minutes ago, Doc said: Yes my bad, I meant you should never punt from your opponent's 35-yard line. Nonsense! I do it all the time!! -Dick Jauron 1 Quote
BarleyNY Posted January 12 Posted January 12 13 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: If you watch the Warner video, the first option was Kincaid, and he was wide open for the first. It was an easy play and schemed perfectly. Josh saw that he had Diggs outside, though, and got greedy. Thanks for the info. Bummer he missed that read. Quote
Doc Brown Posted January 12 Posted January 12 4 hours ago, AKC said: It’s fair to question the coaching, the QB play and/or the decision to intercept either pass. My criticism is really with the 4th and 2 game call about it being “as good as a punt” and the continuing use of that phrase in recaps and discussion. It wasn’t as good as a punt. Of course there were possibilities that could have resulted in better outcomes than a punt but they did not happen. A forced throw on 4th and 2 against your inertia bailed out by a defensive error is just two (or 3) errors that don’t add up to a positive. The term "as good as a punt" really only applies on a 3rd and long and launch it deep hoping a WR can make a play. Even then there's some debate about whether the potential reward outweighs the risk as it's more likely for a defensive back with the INT to return it for a long game or TD than a punt returner on 4th down. In this particular situation though Josh made the best play he could've made after missing his first read. 5 hours ago, Doc said: He kept looking Kincaid's way but didn't want to pull the trigger, so it's not like he didn't see him. The only conclusion I can reach is he didn't believe Kincaid would get the first down and there's no way to know for sure. I wonder if visions of 4th and goal against the Bucs flashed in his head with a similar route to Kincaid. Quote
Doc Posted January 12 Posted January 12 6 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: I wonder if visions of 4th and goal against the Bucs flashed in his head with a similar route to Kincaid. Probably. Again, he saw him and decided against throwing to him. Quote
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