Kurt Warner - Very good breakdown of Josh Allen’s play agains the Fins

[ricojes]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:02 AM, SWATeam said:

I always been pretty aligned with Warner in that Josh needs to take more layups.

I agree a lot of it is not Josh, no debate,  But I agree with another part of his point, which is the hot reads or "layups" are taking too long to develop. 

[Beck Water]

15 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It needs to be resaid that Warner was throwing to two Hall of Famers in Faulk and Bruce

 

He hardly has some everyman QB opinion on how to play the position

 

Regardless of who he was throwing to.  Kurt Warner became a starter with the Rams with Mike Martz as his offensive coordinator.

 

Kurt Warner has phrased it diplomatically as "Mike Martz was very hard on quarterbacks".  I have a little tiny sliver of inside insight and another way of putting it was Mike Martz was a perfectionistic demanding ####### of a control freak.  He knew how to scheme up an offense, and he demanded that it run like a swiss watch.

 

Kurt Warner doesn't start for the Rams unless he is able to read the field and make the correct throw to the correct spot with a perfect spiral at the perfect time.

 

Warner understands ball very deeply.  He made a living playing the position in structure and parlayed his relatively meh physical talents to their max in his career by having that deep understanding.. 

 

The fact that Warner was throwing to high level talent doesn't change Warner's understanding or his processing speed or his precision passing (in his good years).  By the way, Faulk and Bruce and Holt and Hakim with the Rams also made their livings playing their positions in structure.  Not that they weren't great athletes, but it was called the "Greatest Show on Turf" for a while because it was a very very tough scheme to defend.  It didn't depend on them to "beat their man, get to the spot", it depended on creating confliction for defenders with precise route execution.

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Regardless of who he was throwing to.  Kurt Warner became a starter with the Rams with Mike Martz as his offensive coordinator.

 

Kurt Warner has phrased it diplomatically as "Mike Martz was very hard on quarterbacks".  I have a little tiny sliver of inside insight and another way of putting it was Mike Martz was a perfectionistic demanding ####### of a control freak.  He knew how to scheme up an offense, and he demanded that it run like a swiss watch.

 

Kurt Warner doesn't start for the Rams unless he is able to read the field and make the correct throw to the correct spot with a perfect spiral at the perfect time.

 

Warner understands ball very deeply.  He made a living playing the position in structure and parlayed his relatively meh physical talents to their max in his career by having that deep understanding.. 

 

The fact that Warner was throwing to high level talent doesn't change Warner's understanding or his processing speed or his precision passing (in his good years).  By the way, Faulk and Bruce and Holt and Hakim with the Rams also made their livings playing their positions in structure.  Not that they weren't great athletes, but it was called the "Greatest Show on Turf" for a while because it was a very very tough scheme to defend.  It didn't depend on them to "beat their man, get to the spot", it depended on creating confliction for defenders with precise route execution.

My point is getting the ball in Marshall Faulk's hands is always the right decision

 

Whereas hitting Reggie Gilliam in the flat is likely to produce a significantly lesser result

[78thealltimegreat]

37 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That is NOT at all Kurt's point.  Sheesh, people.  Kurt's point is that sometimes it would benefit Josh, and the team, for Josh to operate a bit more within the designed structure of the play.  Remember when the Bills were dreadful in the red zone last year?  That's at times, because Josh was overlooking the plays available within the designed structure, in favor of free-lancing.  And since that tendency is on tape now, sometimes that led him into trouble.

 

 

I think the reasons are pretty clear. 

1) Josh is a fierce competitor.  If he thinks he can "go for the gusto", why take the 6 yard gain off the 2 yard route to the flat?

2) For most of his formative football years (HS, Juco, College) Josh pretty much was the team.  He only had 1 or 2 other players at most he could count on.  So he would go to them, or take it himself. 

3) The throwing style Josh came out of college with legit made it hard for him to hit those dump-offs to the flat or little slants.  It wasn't until he changed his mechanics in the 2019 off season that he legit could hit them consistently, and he still reverts to his previous mechanics when he's injured.

 

The problem with 1) is that at this point, his tendencies are clear, so the "gusto" routes are getting jumped and picked at a higher rate.

I maintain he freelances cause he trusts Gabe Davis to make plays way too much. A chart of his ints and how many Davis was the intended receiver would be interesting. 

[Don Otreply]

55 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That is NOT at all Kurt's point.  Sheesh, people.  Kurt's point is that sometimes it would benefit Josh, and the team, for Josh to operate a bit more within the designed structure of the play.  Remember when the Bills were dreadful in the red zone last year?  That's at times, because Josh was overlooking the plays available within the designed structure, in favor of free-lancing.  And since that tendency is on tape now, sometimes that led him into trouble.

 

 

I think the reasons are pretty clear. 

1) Josh is a fierce competitor.  If he thinks he can "go for the gusto", why take the 6 yard gain off the 2 yard route to the flat?

2) For most of his formative football years (HS, Juco, College) Josh pretty much was the team.  He only had 1 or 2 other players at most he could count on.  So he would go to them, or take it himself. 

3) The throwing style Josh came out of college with legit made it hard for him to hit those dump-offs to the flat or little slants.  It wasn't until he changed his mechanics in the 2019 off season that he legit could hit them consistently, and he still reverts to his previous mechanics when he's injured.

 

The problem with 1) is that at this point, his tendencies are clear, so the "gusto" routes are getting jumped and picked at a higher rate.

Yup, agree, so with this knowledge one would think he would understand that talking the dump off pass as needed is a good thing to do, and it does not preclude the longer pass option when it is the right choice, but you take the high percentage pass when a first down keeps you in control and on the field of play, Josh has not yet wrap his mind fully around this, I sure wish he would let it sink in more fully, and I suspect his coaches feel the same way…, 

 

And yes the Josh Allen experience is in full flight, it is what makes it breaks the teams success, and it sure as hell is fun to watch!

 

GO BILLS!!’

[Scott7975]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:27 AM, ToGoGo said:

Didn't watch this one, but watched Kurt Warner videos on Josh Allen in the past and it always felt like Warner would judge Allen harshly for not being more of a strict pocket passer like Warner.

 

 

Warner definitely is more sided to the structure plays because thats who he was and was good at.  I don't feel like he did that here though.  Most of this video was about Brady or the WR not giving Josh options on blitzes.  I've said that for weeks now... Brady doesn't have an answer for pressure.  I say it in the game day thread almost every week.  I like Brady but they need answers for pressure and so far there is none most of the time.

 

The other part of the video was about Josh playing too fast on a few plays which I have to agree with.  At the very least, that one 4th down he easily had Kincaid for a first down but moved off it too fast.  The first one he showed, I am not sure I agree with because there were two defenders at the goal line ready for that.  The pass was probably complete to him if Josh did what Warner said and just set and hit him, but I am not sure the guy makes it in the endzone.  However, He did miss a wide open, I think it was Knox but might have been Kincaid, in the back of the endzone on that play.  Warner did point that out too but he kinda brushed over it.

 

At the end of the day, we are knit picking a few plays on a day Josh had over 400 yards of offense, 2 TDs, and like 79% completions.  We expect perfection out of Josh and thats just not how the NFL works.  No QB is perfect all the time.  Josh has the only perfect game in the playoffs I think.  Josh could be better. So could everyone else.  Josh counts for more yards and points for our team than any other QB in the league and its been like that for years.

Edited January 14 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:50 PM, Beck Water said:

 

I agree with your disagreement.  You could even throw in Favre as another example.  A wild man, a gun slinger, when he had a coach who persuaded him to rein it in and stop doing stupid *****, straight to the conference championship, Superbowl Baby!

 

It's even a bit more frustrating than that since Josh HAS had games where he has grown up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  Examples would include 2020 Rams and Seattle games, 2021 KC regular season game and NWE and KC playoff games.  In 2020, Allen had 37 passing TDs and 10 interceptions.  He not only can do it, he has done it at times.

 

Brett Favre was 3rd in the league in turnovers that year behind Kordell Stewart and Kerry Collins.  I also watched a video where Holmgren basically said he embraced Farve.  He didn't try to change him and instead changed his play calls to ones where Farve couldn't get himself in trouble.

[Scott7975]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:21 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

If the only two options on 4th down were take a sack or heave to the endzone, sure. But with a split second more patience as Warner indicates he had a first down throw and he comes off it too quickly. 

 

I completely agree with you that Josh should have been more patient and hit that play.  However, I also do agree with the other guy that there should be more than one option on a 4th and 2 that isn't running 25 yards down the field. I blame Josh on that play that he missed it but I mean on 4th and 2 there should be more than just one option to make a quick first down.  Just my opinion.

On 1/11/2024 at 10:12 AM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I don’t want an offense where the QB leads the team in rush yards. 

 

So basically you don't want Josh Allen.  It's part of what makes him special.  He doesn't necessarily have to lead the team in rush yards but you can't take what makes him special and remove it from him.  Every special QB has different traits.  Tom Brady was pin point precision and processing the field fast. That is not what Josh is special at.  Lamar Jacksons is that he is the best athlete on the field and makes a beautiful seam throw.  Wilson was that he could get out of the pocket and throw a beautiful moonball downfield. etc etc  Josh is special for being a good athlete with his legs, huge to bring down, cannon for an arm, off script plays and not a spot on the field he cant throw the ball to.

Edited January 14 by Scott7975

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I completely agree with you that Josh should have been more patient and hit that play.  However, I also do agree with the other guy that there should be more than one option on a 4th and 2 that isn't running 25 yards down the field. I blame Josh on that play that he missed it but I mean on 4th and 2 there should be more than just one option to make a quick first down.  Just my opinion.

 

So basically you don't want Josh Allen.  It's part of what makes him special.  He doesn't necessarily have to lead the team in rush yards but you can't take what makes him special and remove it from him.  Every special QB has different traits.  Tom Brady was pin point precision and processing the field fast. That is not what Josh is special at.  Lamar Jacksons is that he is the best athlete on the field and makes a beautiful seam throw.  Wilson was that he could get out of the pocket and throw a beautiful moonball downfield. etc etc  Josh is special for being a good athlete with his legs, huge to bring down, cannon for an arm, off script plays and not a spot on the field he cant throw the ball to.

Did you read my post? I said I don’t want him to lead the team in rush yards. I’m all for Allen running the ball when there is an open lane. 

[Scott7975]

On 1/11/2024 at 12:52 PM, Beck Water said:

 

That is NOT at all Kurt's point.  Sheesh, people.  Kurt's point is that sometimes it would benefit Josh, and the team, for Josh to operate a bit more within the designed structure of the play.  Remember when the Bills were dreadful in the red zone last year?  That's at times, because Josh was overlooking the plays available within the designed structure, in favor of free-lancing.  And since that tendency is on tape now, sometimes that led him into trouble.

 

 

I think the reasons are pretty clear. 

1) Josh is a fierce competitor.  If he thinks he can "go for the gusto", why take the 6 yard gain off the 2 yard route to the flat?

2) For most of his formative football years (HS, Juco, College) Josh pretty much was the team.  He only had 1 or 2 other players at most he could count on.  So he would go to them, or take it himself. 

3) The throwing style Josh came out of college with legit made it hard for him to hit those dump-offs to the flat or little slants.  It wasn't until he changed his mechanics in the 2019 off season that he legit could hit them consistently, and he still reverts to his previous mechanics when he's injured.

 

The problem with 1) is that at this point, his tendencies are clear, so the "gusto" routes are getting jumped and picked at a higher rate.

 

I agree with it but as also said, its a balance.  Kurt showed the deep ball to Diggs play.  That was a huge play for us that helped us win the game.  If Josh stayed on structure of the play there, thats not where the ball should have been thrown or would have been thrown.  People also need to understand that.

2 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Did you read my post? I said I don’t want him to lead the team in rush yards. I’m all for Allen running the ball when there is an open lane. 

 

Yes, I read your post.

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Josh counts for more yards and points for our team than any other QB in the league and its been like that for years.

 

And I think he kinda has to be that. I have always said of Josh he WANTS and THRIVES with the game put in his hands. I don't know how easy it is to take the weight off him and still have him at his best. If you understand what I mean?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I agree with it but as also said, its a balance.  Kurt showed the deep ball to Diggs play.  That was a huge play for us that helped us win the game.  If Josh stayed on structure of the play there, thats not where the ball should have been thrown or would have been thrown.  People also need to understand that.

 

Yes, I read your post.

Okay so don’t put words in my mouth. I never said to put a leash on Allen. I would just rather my RB lead the team in rush yards. 

[Scott7975]

41 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Okay so don’t put words in my mouth. I never said to put a leash on Allen. I would just rather my RB lead the team in rush yards. 

 

I didn't.  That is also not likely to happen until Josh is older.  We aren't going to run a single back enough because we split between 3 backs and pass the ball more as they should.  Josh leads because he is that good, we run through 3 backs, and we don't run near as much as we pass as we shouldn't.